(Concept) New BG: Icecrown Chasm

[Retrogames]

So, at the suggestion of a few people in this thread, I'm throwing together a new topic for the discussion, commentary, and criticism of an idea I threw together last night.

Keep in mind this is only an idea; it has not been designed with system requirements, deep balancing, or play testing in mind. We're just throwing ideas around because A). It's fun, and B). It can actually lead to pretty interesting discussions. Try to keep the "Lulz, it will blowz up ur PC"-type comments to a minimum.

Also, as a forewarning (and I am bold-facing this to grab your attention) to all you TL;DR-type people; yes. It is Too long. Thank you for not reading it. Please keep this detail to yourself.

There. I've covered myself.
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Icecrown Chasm (IC)
15 vs 15 vs an ungodly number of undead.
Objective: Unleash the horrors of Icecrown Chasm upon the opposing faction, turning them all into the undead.



Description:
This battleground pits the Alliance (in blue) against the Horde (in red) in a race to destroy the other team's gateways, allowing the army of the Lich King to engulf and overwhelm their enemies. This is done by using catapults situated on a rise just outside each faction's starting point. Players aim and fire stone projectiles across the chasm, targeting the enemy's gateways (shown as a pair of light blue bars on an incline) in an attempt to be the first to destroy them.

This is not as easy as it sounds, however, as each faction is completely out of ammo on the starting high ground. To gain projectiles for their catapults, they must cross wooden bridges onto the stonework of the Lich King's fortifications and slide down a gentle slope at the north end of the chasm (or if they have a means of falling safely, can walk off any of the edges).

Once in the chasm, the player must locate supply piles (marked with white X's), grab a stone projectile, and race up their ramps, through their gateways, to their catapults. In their way is a constantly respawning army of the Lich King's undead minions, erupting from the ground below almost as quickly as they are slain. Being just-risen, these undead are weak, but in great numbers can drag even the greatest heroes into an early grave. Should they fall victim, players will be transformed into an Undead Butcher, a fast-moving and much more durable version of the average zombie. Beware; if your entire faction becomes zombified, the game ends!

If the player manages to reach the catapults, he can deliver a projectile for others to use, or take control of a catapult himself. From the elevated position, players can fire down into the chasm to clear the way of zombies for their fellow soldiers, at the enemy catapults to disable them temporarily, or at the enemy's gates.

Rules:
The gateways can only be opened by members of their controlling faction; horde can only open the southern gateways, while alliance can only open the northern gateways. These gateways must be manually opened and closed each time by a player (but automatically close after 8 seconds). The gateways can be destroyed by any form of damage; the NPC zombies in the pit will constantly attack it, the opposite faction can attack it directly, or projectiles can be launched at it. A gateway cannot be repaired once damaged so preserving this gateway is essential. A faction cannot damage it's own gateway in any way. The NPC Zombies constantly stream towards the gateways (in actuality, they are drawn to both faction's graveyards). Gateways have a very large amount of health; see below for details on how it's health is damaged).

The stonework bridge is completely open on either side, so ranged classes can fire upon each other and the catapults can cause quite a bit of trouble (but at the cost of a projectile). Pillars spaced at intervals on the bridge allow players to use Line of Sight to avoid being picked off too quickly or to rest. The bridge is a 'safe' way to get down into the chasm, with the small platform and the gentle slope it leads to allowing safe passage down, but prevents climbing back up.

The zombies in the pit are fragile, having about 1000 health, but in great numbers can cause a great deal of damage. Zombies cause less-than-average damage to gateways (the idea being that you don't want them to break the barriers too quickly on their own, but still pose a threat to them).

At random intervals, an Abomination will spawn near the southern-most stockpile. A zone-wide announcement is made when he spawns. When slain, the abomination drops a key that unlocks the North Gate (marked "Gate" on the map). This passage allows players to cross to the other faction's side. This gate cannot be lock picked. The key requires 2 seconds to loot during which the player can be interrupted, and is dropped when the carrier is slain.

Supply Stockpiles need only be clicked once and the player will instantly be given a projectile. The stockpiles do not disappear when looted. Players can only carry a single projectile at a time. Players drop projectiles they were carrying when killed, and players may manually drop projectiles onto specially-marked containers in the middle of each catapult battery, where they will automatically be loaded into catapults for use by other players.

Catapults are treated as vehicles, but are incapable of moving. Players manually adjust the catapults' targets, and can aim anywhere, including the stonework bridges, the chasm, the enemy's gateways, or their catapults. Catapults that have been damaged are temporarily disabled for 10 seconds while invincible NPCs repair it. The damage caused by projectiles is extreme and anyone within the area of effect is pushed outwards (which, needless to say, can be quite dangerous when you're on the bridge). Gateways take the most damage from catapult attacks.

Players killed by other players respawn in the starting cave, while players killed by the undead NPCs or a zombified player are turned into Undead Butchers. Undead Butchers move extremely fast and can be quite lethal, but are still somewhat fragile (their health is a percentage of the player's regular max health). They have several abilities similar to a Death Knight's summoned Corpse, including Leap and Corpse Explosion. One of these abilities is a 3 minute debuff similar to the Lich King pre-release world event; a player needs to be cleaned of this disease or he'll be converted into a zombie. An NPC at the starting area / graveyard can cleanse this effect upon request.

Players who have been zombified are still in control of their actions, but are ignored by zombie NPCs. This means that players in zombie form can still act against the enemy faction. While this seems like a stretch of logic, remember that during the WOTLK Launch Event, players could still act of their own accord. However, a player who has been zombified will take damage from friendly fire.

The game ends when all members of a faction are turned into Undead Butchers.

General Gameplay Concept:
IC forces players down into a deep, nearly inescapable canyon densely populated with low health Zombies that are easily killed, but are in such extreme numbers that they can quickly overwhelm players trying to carry ammo back to their base. While they cause little damage, their numbers make them a serious threat to players.

The basic game runs like this; Players spawn at the large colored dot and must obtain projectiles at the locations marked with X's. They can reach them by dropping off the cliff side (though it is a significant fall, and there are hungry zombies down there), crossing the stonework bridge and sliding down the slopes at the north end, or by passing down through their own gateway (which is tricky because there are zombies trying to get in as you get out).

On the north end of the chasm is a gate; this gate allows horde and alliance to pass through into each other's side. The only other way to get into the opposite faction's high ground is to try to get up the ramps (which would be fairly difficult). This gate can only be opened with a key, which both factions can fight over (though holding the key does not ensure victory.)

The gateways are dangerous to use for entering and exiting, because zombies will inevitably try to get through every time they are opened. To prevent their gateway from taking excessive damage, players must kill all nearby zombies, either by hand or with a catapult shot from above. The cliff side is high enough that players cannot fire arrows or spells down into the chasm from above. The gateways can be fired through and spells pass through it, allowing players to defeat enemies on the other side.

Once in the chasm, players must work together to reach the stockpiles and escape the undead horrors by passing through the gateways. Enemy players and zombies can pass through the gate if it is not quickly closed (thus, why there are two). Once on the high ground, each team must bombard the others' catapults, players below or on the bridge, or gateways.

The game ends when the other team is zombified, which generally occurs if they are careless in the pit, controlling their gates, or if their gates are destroyed and their graveyard (at the starting point) is overrun. With their gateways down, inevitably the remaining players will make their last stand at their starting point as the undead hordes swarm them.
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Thoughts, comments, suggestions, and criticism is welcome. Try to keep it readable though. :

[Gzilia]

Seems nice to be honest..
choatic at times. and mages on zombies seems to come to mind.
but all in all. what bg is not choatic.

Goodluck

Edit : O, I forgot one thing. It seems to me the key to succes is teamwork ( o noes )
I play alliance, On a teribad BG. this could just be my worst nightmare

Edit #15 : thinking about this, and the ''new BG'' thats UD. makes me warm inside

[Retrogames]

Seems nice to be honest..
choatic at times. and mages on zombies seems to come to mind.
but all in all. what bg is not choatic.

Chaos is good.

As for mages on zombies, there's actually a lot of class-specific play here. Any class with strong AOE will do well against the hordes of zombies, obviously, but because they have such low HP, melee classes can also do somewhat well. Paladins obviously have an advantage against all of the undead targets, but Shamans also have totems that can nuke areas on a regular basis, allowing shamans to effectively use totems to create bubbles of safety. And Disease-cleansing totem is pretty important too.

I don't imagine the zombie population will be so dense that you have to literally wade through them, but slightly higher in density than Culling of Stratholm, and much faster re-spawning. Definitely easier to kill, but then, their numbers are also pretty heavy. Obviously any figures I give on their HP (I listed it at 1k above) are going to have to be adjusted with play testing.

Edit : O, I forgot one thing. It seems to me the key to succes is teamwork ( o noes )
I play alliance, On a teribad BG. this could just be my worst nightmare

Yes, but the teamwork is more varied than, say, WSG where there's defense, flag runners, and flag support. You have catapults, gate defense, stockpile-runners, bridge defense, cleansing support, and possibly frontal assault if you have a key. There's a lot to do, and all things kind of benefit the overall team (except, possibly, frontal assault, but even that can be used to slow things down a bit.)

[lylte]

People /afk'ing out once they recieve the zombie debuff could make for very... very... long games

[leelamon]

melees will be hated on this bg

[sillverhair]

so where exactly do i get to kill horde in melee combat???
where do i even meet horde???

oh wait this is a ranged bg... where there is no combat with horde involved at all?

lol what a crap idea

[Gzilia]

so where exactly do i get to kill horde in melee combat???
where do i even meet horde???

oh wait this is a ranged bg... where there is no combat with horde involved at all?

lol what a crap idea

You must be very lonley.

[velourea]

always nice to see people take the time to evaluate their ideas instead of some rambling about zombies and spacecowboys

[sillverhair]

You must be very lonley.

how is that... please so explain this brilliantly argumented fact....

i am merely saying what all the melee reading this post are thinking, especially retri palas with no ranged attacks whatsoever (exorcism excluded)
to actually shoot horde.

appart from that a battleground is about pvp,
ill explain, player versus player,
not player versus zombie.

pvp means we get to kill "players" as in other people who sit behind their pc, instead of zombies, if i want to kill zombies i can go to any northrend region and even some older region....
+ there is no skill in this, from what im getting you line up some palas who will chain holy wrath, give them a dedicated healer and your done..

[Retrogames]

People /afk'ing out once they recieve the zombie debuff could make for very... very... long games

Considering /AFK'ing is a problem in every other BG, I don't think anyone will notice. A player AFK'ing in Zombie form is no more useless than a player AFK'ing any other time, though they are contributing to the team's loss quite substantially.

melees will be hated on this bg

so where exactly do i get to kill horde in melee combat???
where do i even meet horde???

In the pit, at the supply piles, where both factions meet face to face to gather ammo for their team's catapults.
At the south end of the pit, where the Abomination spawns and drops the Key.
At the North Gate where either faction can cross into the other side's high ground.

Melee actually has a substantial role in this battleground, and one that ranged classes can't do effectively; fight at the supply piles. Ranged classes who stand back to plink arrows or spells at the other faction are inevitably swarmed by the undead.

You didn't think I built a battleground concept with zombies in it just because zomnies are cool, did you? The undead in this game are the flood waters you use to drown your enemy. Ranged Classes can't dance at the outskirts of combat with the Alliance / Horde because the outskirts is where the zombies are.

lol what a crap idea

I'll happily take your wonderfully articulate criticism into consideration and pass your ideas along to the appropriate parties at the appropriate times. Thank you for reading.

[Retrogames]

I wanted to address this individual post directly, as I've seen a lot of people not really thinking this concept through before blathering on about how their precious DKs and Ret Pallies will be somehow gimped (when in fact, they're being given a BG that has the potential to line up ranged classes like a smorgasbord) . My apologies for the double post.

pvp means we get to kill "players" as in other people who sit behind their pc, instead of zombies, if i want to kill zombies i can go to any northrend region and even some older region....

The zombies are part of the Battleground's dynamic, not the focus. In this concept, Zombies are the flag, the territory, the towers, etc.; they're an un-living, un-breathing tool that you use to usher in victory. No points are awarded for killing zombies, and except for the ones attacking you or your gate, are helping you win.

You are fighting the horde / alliance just as you always are; by using the tools of the battleground to win. People who focus entirely on killing the other faction rather than complete the objectives? Yeah, nobody likes those guys. People fighting in the middle of WSG as the flag runner sprints past? Fighting up in the graveyard or on the roads in AB? Not helping. At least in this concept, standing around killing Zombies doesn't earn you anything, not even honor.

there is no skill in this, from what im getting you line up some palas who will chain holy wrath, give them a dedicated healer and your done.

Quite the contrary, if you consider what is actually happening you'll see that this BG actually gives melee a significant advantage. While ranged and AOE classes have a great advantage in that they can clear out large swaths of zombies, without melee to protect them from enemy players or the few zombies that get through, they're gone. The teams are purposely driven at each other in the middle of the pit to create chaos, and without melee the ranged classes are dead, and vice versa. Healers would also obviously be useful, because a group that has fought through zombies to reach the piles still needs to survive the other faction's attempts to stop them.

This battleground puts melee at the forefront of the effort, whereas in most BGs, there is no barrier / objective to keep ranged units occupied. If you're standing at a flag in AB, ranged classes have nothing to stop them from picking you off from 30 yards away. You can stand there and get killed, or move to attack, leaving your flag open, but either way melee is at a disadvantage.

In this concept, ranged classes are constantly pressed in on all sides to stay close together and close to the objective (in this case, supply piles), which is close to melee. Thus, melee gains a significant advantage; ranged classes can't kite into a wall of hungry undead. By design, they're intentionally prevented from using the advantages their ranged strength provides them because they don't have room to move.

Melee can also use the key to swarm the other side's high ground. Rogues can stealth up the enemy's gate by following a group of alliance / horde up into their own base.

[Slabnab]

I like this idea :} a BG that actually is going to take a lot of thinking on the fly and teamwork along with all kinds of chaos and action is pretty exciting. The only thing I would worry about is the raid group compositions. Like sometimes the teams would be royally screwed by the awesome randomness of who the bg que puts in. But I understand that the whole bg queueing is a problem that's hard to work with.

[Retrogames]

The only thing I would worry about is the raid group compositions. Like sometimes the teams would be royally screwed by the awesome randomness of who the bg que puts in. But I understand that the whole bg queueing is a problem that's hard to work with.

The biggest concern is lack of AOE to properly melt down large groups of zombies at once, but considering that most classes have an AOE at this point in the game, that can probably be overcome by chance. Even if you're in a BG without traditional AOE classes like Mages, Locks or Hunters, the chances that there isn't another class that can AOE / engage multiple targets at the same time are pretty slim. Even classes that don't normally cast have a use here (A paladin's Holy wrath and consecration or a shaman's elemental totems can lock down and keep an area relatively zombie free)

And when was the last time you were in a BG that didn't have a hunter or Paladin?

Thanks for reading, glad you liked it.

[Vallos]

pvp means we get to kill "players" as in other people who sit behind their pc, instead of zombies, if i want to kill zombies i can go to any northrend region and even some older region....

Someone doesn't really understand PVP. If you played the original AV, you'd know that farming kills is not important at all. Capturing points, gathering resources and playing with (gasp) strategy define how the game will go. It's not just a face-roll 'hit player with stick' type deal.

I think this is very well thought-out.

[KaynDarksbane]

My one problem with this:

Paladins would be OP. AoE Damage/stun against Undead/Demons on a relatively short cooldown.

[Kavalir]

This seems like a mash of a few different warhammer battlegrounds together.

The layout of it, is exactly the same as on of lower level battlegrounds, honestly I cant remember which exact one, I only played for 2 weeks, I believe it was the Order side from rank 1-10, or 11-20. And the concept of unleashing a large force that will kill the opposing team seems exactly like another one in warhammer.

[zigguratt]

I like the aspect of another faction(scourge) other horde/alliance in a bg, but it seems to me that
there would be no direct contact with the opposite faction, which I feel is essential in any bg

I remember questing in icecrown on my alliance character and there was a quest where you
found out that the alliance was set to break through one of the scourge gates but they got
slaughtered by the horde before they made their attack.

so maybe instead of having indirect contact between alliance/horde, it would be the scourge that is
launching stuff at you from afar while you are dealing with alliance/horde.

[Retrogames]

My one problem with this:

Paladins would be OP. AoE Damage/stun against Undead/Demons on a relatively short cooldown.

That's part of the overall package; Paladins get to use Holy Wrath (which is on a 30 second cooldown and costs 20% mana), which makes it much less likely teams will end up lacking the useful AOE damage that will be demanded in this BG. It's fairly inefficient, but it would get the job done when needed.

I try not to look at it as "Paladins are overpowered" so much as "Paladins can fill a role they normally don't handle if the need arises". The idea is, once you're in the pit, you need to maintain a safe area in which to move. It is a valid concern, though, but I should hope it isn't considered a problem so much as a handy solution; "Paladins have an unfair advantage" vs. "Paladins can contribute in manner which they usually don't". They're not the only class with AOE, they just happen to be invited to the AOE party because of the nature of the BG.

This seems like a mash of a few different warhammer battlegrounds together.

The layout of it, is exactly the same as on of lower level battlegrounds, honestly I cant remember which exact one, I only played for 2 weeks, I believe it was the Order side from rank 1-10, or 11-20. And the concept of unleashing a large force that will kill the opposing team seems exactly like another one in warhammer.

Having never played Warhammer, I can't refute this claim, but if you're saying my design is similar to something that works in another game, I may have to take it as a compliment.

Thank you both for reading and taking a look at the underlying dynamics.

[Retrogames]

I like the aspect of another faction(scourge) other horde/alliance in a bg, but it seems to me that
there would be no direct contact with the opposite faction, which I feel is essential in any bg

I'm thinking I may have to go back and edit the original post, because I think a lot of people aren't picking up the direct conflict. Within the gaping zombie-filled pit are four supply piles; they are situated directly between the horde and alliance sides. Both the horde and alliance want to access these piles to gain ammunition for their catapults above.

The direct conflict occurs when both factions meet in the middle and try to get out with projectiles.

There is also the potential for direct conflict at the north gate should one side or another grab the Key (dropped by a randomly-spawning abomination).

In my early drafts, I had considered making each stockpile hold a single projectile, so that once one was grabbed, you'd have to wait for it to be fired before the pile could be looted again. But my rough playtesting revealed that;

1.) It made the game far too long, and I wanted people to use the catapults on somewhat frivolous targets like enemies moving across the bridge.

2.) It turned the projectiles into controllable objects that could be used to draw out the game. We've all been in WSG when both sides are turtle'd up with flags; the same thing could apply here; one side manages to grab all the cannonballs and force the other side to wait it out.

In the end, I decided that letting everyone carry one projectile each, and not placing a limit on it, would keep the game fast and loose, with teams rushing into the pit to grab supplies and rushing back out as quick as they could.

[Varithorn1]

Aszara Crater first please. :