I'm definitely trying out this on PTR

[Darkent]

I think SoV is underrated in PvP in new patch. Think about it, once you apply 5 stacks of it you are gonna be nuking that target massively 24/7 coz of new more-dmg-over-time changes.
What is the problem of applying 5 stacks of it on current FotM classes besides evasion? DK, Druid, Warr, Pala, Priest etc are all easy to keep close for nuking.
CS>DS and there you got 5 stacks probably. And also if Judgements are applying stacks you have 5 stacks in no time.
So, I'm definitely trying out this build on PTR in PvP:
http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?pala...0&version=9947

Massive amount of DoTs from Righteous Vengeance and SoV are not gonna do massive amount of dmg only, they are also gonna be nightmare to dispell with Stoicism. Also planning to take SoC instead of something for mage teams.

What are your thoughts and are you planning to test it out also?

[Raiss]

Massive and uncontrolled doting = massive and uncrontrolled CC breacking.

Even with ret burst "broken", you can't afford to lose the high seal dmg for a constant one. And I hardly belive it will have a decent dps.

Missing divina guardian isn't a option for pvp also

[Darkent]

And I hardly belive it will have a decent dps.

Trust me, it will.

[Dragonfiregum1]

No it will have bad dps. Even tho SoV says 33% and SoC says 36%, im willing to be the 33% of SoV will be a true 33% unlike SoC which will be base + the 36%. Theres no way there going to give us a dot + awesome seal dmg = to SoC + double crit dmg effect ? lol wut

[Darkent]

Well, to quote one guy from wow forums. If this is correct then there is no way SoV damage will be low. Actually, it is gonna be massive:

...you will do 33% weapon damage and 66% weapon damage if you critt. And they will improve the damage of both the DoT and the Judge. And remember with 5 stacks the judges do 50% more damage aswell.
And rembmer the talent! Seals of the pure, increases the damage with 15%
(I did all my testing without the talent)

( remember Soc will do 36% weapon damage on eatch swing, But then, With vengeance you will get an extra DoT on the target wich will tick for a good amount of damage, Aswell, when you critt SoC doesnt give you the double damage, no still 36% But with vengeance 66% )

Me and my friend was fooling around with these two seals yesterday, on the dummies in ironforge. With seal of martyr I manage to reach 3.7k And with Seal of vengeance i ended up with 3.6k The fight lasted 2 min with both seals, So I went all out. Same rotations and stuff, Self buffed only. And thats at THIS DATE, Then imagine once it get buffed! It wont be lesser dps, no. We will do more dps, by miles! Belive me!

[Demox]

Trust me, it will.

That's a pretty bold statement for someone who doesn't know how the mechanic works in a real time situation yet. IMO if I wanted to nerf a ret paladins damage to me I would start dispelling stacks.

[Darkent]

That's a pretty bold statement for someone who doesn't know how the mechanic works in a real time situation yet. IMO if I wanted to nerf a ret paladins damage to me I would start dispelling stacks.

Read my post above yours, it pretty much explains how much dmg SoV is gonna do.
And good luck dispelling 5 stacks of SoV and 1 stack of Righteous Vengeance with:

Stoicism
Reduces the duration of all Stun effects by an additional 30% and reduces the chance your helpful spells and damage over time effects will be dispelled by an additional 30%.

[Adamson]

Trust me, it will.

I think you're special.

You have 0 idea what the contributing coefficients are for the spell. Any damage will break repentance, and divine storm will proc the seal 100% on any target. having dots on targets you need to repentance to make the clutch burst move is devastating.

Unless they "fix" repentance, SoV will not be used in pvp, ever. The most critical thing you can do in pvp is the timing and success of your cc's.

[Lafteroth]

I'm gonna have to side with Darkent on this. Seal of Vengeance is pretty close to Seal of the Martyr/Blood already, and all they're doing with Seal of Command is changing it to Seal of Blood/Martyr without the damage recoil. Even if it keeps the Stunned/Incapacitated Crits, that won't help you for raid bosses except Stormbringer at the Iron Council. Yeehaw... >.>

It's pretty obvious that should they increase the damage for Vengeance, there isn't anything to debate. Even leaving everything the same and increasing the DoT effect STILL makes it better than the current SoM/B. However, they're not just increasing DoT damage, they're giving it an added weapon damage coefficient to each swing.

However, I would also like to take Adamson's side of the argument for PvP. Truly and honestly, if you've struck a target five times... There really isn't much left on that target to worry about damage over time or following attacks. Should Seal of Command keep it's Stunned = Autocrit attribute (and there's no reason in the world for us to believe that it won't), I would say that would be the better Seal to go for, ESPECIALLY if the Judge Crit is considered a physical attack (it better damn well be! My grounding totem on my shaman still doesn't stop judges and that likely won't change.) then you get to automatically follow it with Exorcism, which is like Chaos bolt in the sense that nothing stops it short of across the board damage reduction/immunity/absorption.

Just my thoughts.

[Darkent]

I think you're special.

You have 0 idea what the contributing coefficients are for the spell. Any damage will break repentance, and divine storm will proc the seal 100% on any target. having dots on targets you need to repentance to make the clutch burst move is devastating.

Unless they "fix" repentance, SoV will not be used in pvp, ever. The most critical thing you can do in pvp is the timing and success of your cc's.

So you think they will make new PvE seal such a crap that it's dmg is gonna be lower then SoC?
That would make seal useless and everyone would use SoC in PvE and that's not gonna happen.
SoV is gonna have higher dps over time.
Yes you would have to be careful with CC if you are gonna use SoV but I'm talking about damage it is gonna do on nuked target. Maybe it will give paladins heavy sustained dmg not 3sec burst like we have atm and that's really what we need against healers if we don't have mortal strike. They won't have 3-4sec breaks between our judge/cs CDs to do what they want (cc/mana burn), they will have to heal 24/7 if they want to survive.

[Raiss]

Read my post above yours, it pretty much explains how much dmg SoV is gonna do.
And good luck dispelling 5 stacks of SoV and 1 stack of Righteous Vengeance with:

Stoicism
Reduces the duration of all Stun effects by an additional 30% and reduces the chance your helpful spells and damage over time effects will be dispelled by an additional 30%.

Funny thing that priests and shammans can always one shot my buffs, even with Stoicism.

[Darkent]

Funny thing that priests and shammans can always one shot my buffs, even with Stoicism.

Seriously man, who is gonna bother dispelling 6 stacks of DoTs with 30% dispell resistance which are applying at same speed as rogues poisons while target is taking lots of dmg?

[Prak]

You don't win matches with tunnel vision

[Adamson]

Darkent, even if SoV is more damage over time, damage over time isn't going to win ret matches. SoC with it's burst will. Well timed burst/cc > sustained damage. Sustained damage is great if you have a lot of offensive utility via cc or mortal strike and neither of which we have.

I'm surprised you have a 2050 rating, I hope your BG is worth a damn.

[Darkent]

You don't win matches with tunnel vision

If you mean on 2v2 I win healer/dps matches by usually staying on dps (note i'm not even touching healer) and when dps is on ~70% I start CCing healer with Repentance or HoJ or my partners fear (fear and hoj don't break on dmg, fear won't break on dots).
Then I pop wings and kill dps in hoj/fear/repentance combo.
In 3s, well I started 3s a week ago don't have much exp we just cleave one target while CCing other one.
I would trade high steady dps for CC breaking ability anyday anyways.
So, I'm definitely taking SoV if it turns out good in long term dps.

[Darkent]

Darkent, even if SoV is more damage over time, damage over time isn't going to win ret matches. SoC with it's burst will. Well timed burst/cc > sustained damage. Sustained damage is great if you have a lot of offensive utility via cc or mortal strike and neither of which we have.

I'm surprised you have a 2050 rating, I hope your BG is worth a damn.

If you think burst will work as ret in new patch /facepalm
Especially in 2s it won't.


And about my rating, to make you even more surprised I played on 2.3k+ if you look at my achievements I just blew it with by playing disc/ele. I'm not retard I know what I'm talking about.

Current SoB/SoM (with my char):
~1.2k dmg per hit (~2.4k crit)
~1.8k judgements (~3.6k crits)

New SoCor/SoV:
~800 per hit I guess (~1.6k crit) - maybe more, maybe less, depends on how lower is it gonna be then current SoB/SoM is.
~2k judgements coz of Seals of the pure talent (~4k crit)
~1k or more ticking DoT every 3sec - depends on how much are they gonna increase DoT dmg
~300 - 600 dmg DoT from Righteous Vengeance depends on what you critted

This is without resil/Vengeance and such things.
Since new SoCommand is gonna be weaker then current SoB/SoM I see new SoCor/SoV combined with Righteous Vengeance much better even for PvP if you aren't taking CC breaker in consideration but only pure dmg.

[Piscesthepally]

It is going to be too unreliable in Arena PvP for the vast majority of the time.

[Gzilia]

Trust me, it will.

I trust you.

[scett]

/cough cough

Seal of Vengeance and Seal of Corruption: These seals have been redesigned to deal substantially more damage. Now, once a paladin has 5 copies of the debuff from these seals on his or her target, on each swing the paladin will deal 33% weapon damage as Holy, with critical strikes dealing double damage.

so first you'll need to get 5X the debuff on the target.

so that's 5 hits to get them all on there, asuming that there isnt any nearby that can/will take them off. and only hit 6 and after that will cause 33% extra damage to the target.

that's a pretty big waste of DPS if you ask me...

[Azharok]

5 stacks is STUPIDLY fast to apply.