Dont remove Arena... but change BGs to this to make them BETTER than arena!

[Nawramsti]

Amazing idea ;p but keep arena I enjoy that lulz

[Scorage]

Great examples from the thread:


WSG - A druid grabs the enemy flag. You are a healer solo at midfield, and there are four enemy players at midfield between you and the enemy base. You can see from the map that your FC is alone, and you realize the best strategy is to lure the defenders to the wrong side of the map so your druid can use her speed to get across. So you move to the bottom of the ramp acting like your FC is going that way and you're planning to heal her. In doing so, the four enemy defenders come over and kill you, giving your FC enough time to go GY and get across unhindered.

What possible system could be put in place that would reward you for dying without doing any damage in this scenario?


AB - You are on horde, your team has a 3-2 node advantage, and your are rezzing at your own starting GY. There are three ally camping the GY, yet you are the only person rezzing there. You know you could ghost run to another GY, but realize that by continuing to rez and die, you are effectively making it a 12 on 14 game.

Who deserves more honor here? The three ally that are uselessly camping the one horde and getting HKs, or the one horde dieing for the sake of the victory?


AV - You are a warlock and both your team and the other faction have all the bunkers / towers burned and the captains killed. You are at Snowfall where several members of both teams are fighting for the GY. Should you (a) stay at SF, near the flag, and earn "meaningful" kills by being near an objective? Or (b) use your trinket to get back to your general's room where you can slow down the other team by 30+ seconds with a couple well placed fears?

What should get more honor? Getting some HKs near the Snowfall flag, or causing a reset or two on the general?

Well, those scenarios hint at doing something for the team, thus increasing the team's winning chance. Overall increase of Honor from wins is a general solution to it, a band aid solution if you will.

Of course there are other ways of doing it too.

[Lorgran]

Replying to your wow-forums thread here, as I can't reply on the US forums

Q: Wait, no honor for KBs? But what my zerg???
A: The zerg sucks. Kills don't win BGs, playing the objectives does.

Visited AV lately?

Q: So wait, what you're saying is that if I requeue a few BGs in a row, my team will have a chance to set up our roles, get better at playing together, and have less chance of AFKers on the team?
A: Yep, sounds good doesn't it? You also won't be queuing for three different BGs and causing uneven games to start.

Q: But eventually, won't it be possible for some teams to be really good?
A: Yes, and perhaps you can learn from what those teams do.

Q: But they'll still win a lot, right?
A: Yep. By playing well and using good strategy. This will increase the level of play overall.

These three... sounds like what blizzard tried to do when implementing group quests in tBC and WotLK. There's only one "successful" group quest and that's Threat from Above (and even that can be soloed). People won't "team up" with people they meet on other realms this way, not that there's any reason to, if you miss one game (or come back the next day), the chance to find your "team" again is minimal. If you mean only for people on the same realm, there's already a group signup.

Worst case = every single current team is full, and every person on those teams requeues every game. In this scenario you'd have to wait until there were enough new people in the queue to start a new team.

This makes no sense. If you want to requeue with a certain team, why should you have to wait for free slots?
10 persons play a game of WSG, all press requeue, and the team size is 10 players. How can the team be full so one or more of them have to step out? If you click requeue with these persons, it doesn't mean you want to play with someone else that wasn't even in the game.
Sounds more like you want a "queue with team players" signup, so you can get into a group of random players that want to win and not farm... Bots will be coded to click this button instead.

[Scorage]

PvP and PvE are two completely different sides of this game.

every thread of suggestion/ideas/changes regarding PvP translates into a "you QQ PvE noob gtfo".

the same way goes for suggestion/ideas/changes regarding PvE translates into a "you QQ PvP noob gtfo".

PvE: if you like it it's fine, if you don't like it don't play it and stop calling PvErs noobs. it's a different skill involved (coordination of a big group, having clear the role you have, work of the raid leader to manage different raid setups and so on).

PvP: if you like it it's fine, if you don't like it don't play it and stop calling PvPrs noobs. PvP is about fast reflexes, and a good adaptation to sudden changes.

Nice explanation. Now grab a hammer, and start banging on the head of Greg Street until he gets it.

If he dies on the process, move to Kalgan.

If he dies on the process, continue until you are the only person alive in the building so you can call someone, anyone who is capable of dividing the PvP and PvE in the game into two completely separate things to end all the whining and nerdraging on the forums related to WoW.

If one of the Dev's agrees to do the thing mentioned above, you can spare his life.

Someone do this, please, for the sake of the gamers before we all lose our sanity over the PvP-PvE debate.

[Caredawg]

Keep arena going! :'(
Like the idea of more comp. Bgs etc, but you cant take away arena, its a BIG part of the game, and almost the only reason why I play wow.
And believe me, I'm not alone about that!

[Coldkil]

Nice explanation.

thanks for support. the problem resides in the fact that WoW was born as a PvE game, in which PvP was added later. no way we can "balance" the two things together, imho they should be treated separately.

but too much things are involved, i think we are at a stage now where it's impossible to change the system. a little change is made, thousands of side-effects are generated.

EDIT: 2nd star gained^^

[Scorage]

I never done Arena except for a special occasion. (7 matches to help a friend, I got a whopping 261 points.)

I hate it. I hate it because what it has done to the game so far. (Arcane Barrage, rest in peace, next to Arcane Spec.)

However, the concept of Arenas are much more than that. I absolutely LOVE watching Arena games, and calling out retarded moves or better moves.
To me it, it is about timing the pressure (Cooldowns and burst setup, or the like. YES, I know this only applies to 2s and 3s. 3s a bit less than 2s. Let's see the new Resil changes.)
It is about LoS'ing a cast or an interrupt. It's about making your tail chase you, or losing your tail. (Pillar Humping is the more common name.)
It is about switching Damage on the right moments to create confusion, or force defensive play.
And more.

These are the required in order you to be good at it. Let's compare it to PvE then.

PvE, first and foremost, requires Coordination. (Finding 24 other people that are not Brain Dead. This was what its called by PvP'ers?)
PvE requires to act on a time based intervals, if you fail to do it, its a wipe, or it is not by popping a cooldown to cover yourself up, or if the boss is forgiving on a failure. (Such as Flame Jets of Ignis.)
PvE Requires you to know where you are supposed to be. (Moving out of the Fire. Similar in some sense to LoS'ing, because PvE'ers have done that before. Firemaw, as I recall was forcing people to do time/debuff based LoS'ing in order to survive.)
And more.

But above all this, in this game, there is a way of doing things. That's why certain comps are easy as hell to get Gladiator. That's why people "Bring the class, not the player." (Affli locks from STARS, waving to you here.)
This game is based on "If it's working, don't fix it." That is all. That is why we see homogenization before balance.

[Scorage]

thanks for support. the problem resides in the fact that WoW was born as a PvE game, in which PvP was added later. no way we can "balance" the two things together, imho they should be treated separately.

but too much things are involved, i think we are at a stage now where it's impossible to change the system. a little change is made, thousands of side-effects are generated.

EDIT: 2nd star gained^^

I bet my left nut that Blizzard realized that they just can't pull off "PvE with the PvP together" bullshit, specially after WotLK. But they are openly refusing the idea of separating the two.

I bet my right nut that if the two became separated, we would see a whole lot less PvP/PvE whinings, and even PvE Casual/Elitist crap.

And well, I don't ever want children, so if I'm wrong, I wouldn't be at a loss. :P

[Coldkil]

However, the concept of Arenas are much more than that. I absolutely LOVE watching Arena games, and calling out retarded moves or better moves.
To me it, it is about timing the pressure (Cooldowns and burst setup, or the like. YES, I know this only applies to 2s and 3s. 3s a bit less than 2s. Let's see the new Resil changes.)
It is about LoS'ing a cast or an interrupt. It's about making your tail chase you, or losing your tail. (Pillar Humping is the more common name.)
It is about switching Damage on the right moments to create confusion, or force defensive play.
And more.

These are the required in order you to be good at it. Let's compare it to PvE then.

PvE, first and foremost, requires Coordination. (Finding 24 other people that are not Brain Dead. This was what its called by PvP'ers?)
PvE requires to act on a time based intervals, if you fail to do it, its a wipe, or it is not by popping a cooldown to cover yourself up, or if the boss is forgiving on a failure. (Such as Flame Jets of Ignis.)
PvE Requires you to know where you are supposed to be. (Moving out of the Fire. Similar in some sense to LoS'ing, because PvE'ers have done that before. Firemaw, as I recall was forcing people to do time/debuff based LoS'ing in order to survive.)
And more.

But above all this, in this game, there is a way of doing things. That's why certain comps are easy as hell to get Gladiator. That's why people "Bring the class, not the player." (Affli locks from STARS, waving to you here.)
This game is based on "If it's working, don't fix it." That is all. That is why we see homogenization before balance.

QFT, also at this point (as i said before) it's easier to homogenize than balance. the system is already complicated as hell, no way they want to add other variables to manage.

[anye]

no offical ever mentioned taht arena is gonna be dumped.
their thoughts are to implement a new BG system which provides additional pvp-gear. i could imagine things like pvp shoulders for those who cant reach 2050 starter pvp-weapons to get to 1850 probably additional items to complement your gear.

the frist problems i really see atm are the bgs queues. it cant be that factions start with 5 people less and stay less for about 5 minutes. start a match if there are enough players on both sides. extent the time of waiting until player cap on both sides is reached. if you join a bg leave the queue automatically okay that would suck sometimes but i would prevent BG-hopping. and bg hopping is one of the main problems why some BGs are doomed after the preptime. (join a bg which has begun 20 secs after joining (15other faction : 9 your faction). you have an other invite. what do you do? right! get to the next bg hoping this doesnt suck as well.

for that whole stategy thing:
it would help alot when a player kills a player every player gets a HK in the BG. that would make people zerg at more important places in the bg which makes strategy more important to those zerglings because the fights will not happen at roads anymore. on the other hand players dont feel to sacrifice for their group.
i really dont know y blizz compied the open pvp honor-kill-zone into the bgs anyway... this is y bgs are totally messed up atm.

the key to fun is to have the same chances to win and to get the same honor within your group.

[Lark]

If your argument is "hey BGs are stupid zergfests why would you want to play them" HELLO THAT IS THE PROBLEM PEOPLE ARE DISCUSSING YOU DOWNBREED. If BGs were about good play and playing well as opposed to 'how many people are afk in my av better run to the general' and 'mash face on flag then fight at stables hurr durr' then you know, people might actually be presented with a more enjoyable BG?

PvP: if you like it it's fine, if you don't like it don't play it and stop calling PvPrs noobs. PvP is about fast reflexes, and a good adaptation to sudden changes.

Do you actually pvp? Because it is almost as scripted as PvE, and reaction time - which is limited by what the game can actually do - is about the same.

PvP is about good communication, good composition, understanding your winning tactics and successfully executing those tactics. In fact, I would be more than willing to say that good pvp play requires far deeper long term thinking and overall strategy than pve, which is actually more about rapidly mashing your keys.

Anyone who says PvP has infinite variety and sudden changes is very silly. When you play a warrior he isn't going to pull a rocket pack out of his ass and suddenly fire bomb the arena. He has a set number of useful abilities in his arsenal, a set number of targets and the terrain is unchanging. If he chooses the wrong one, whatever, your job is to know how to face off against the right ones. And guess what? Over ten matchs, the right move is never going to change for most classes. The warrior doesn't sudden put on a shield and drop the rend bomb, ok? He's still going to mortal strike.

[Dubroya]

I agree with everything, just don't remove arena.

[anye]

I agree with everything, just don't remove arena.

arena is not going to be removed. wouldnt make sense at all! blizz would remove one of their biggest fun potenitals in their game.

the original idea was to improve the queue-system honor-system and so on but not to substitute arena.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...n4LQnQEcEAFGhu

arena is kinda champions league in pvp. bgs are support for arena but will offer more valid gear in future.
(please no "OH NO I DONT LIKE ARENA BUT I WANT TO HAVE GEAR THATS EQUALLY GOOD!" - flames)

[DocQuantum]

How about they just add a new BG with no end objective, where the whole point is to farm honor kills? Give double (triple?) honor for a kill while in the zone... but otherwise, there are NO objectives: the fight goes forever.

I'm picturing some full-zone sized area with something in the way of terrain: AB is off of Arathi, Plaguelands are too dreary, The Barrens are too... Barren. Maybe a Grizzly Hills type zone, or Winterspring. Something with stuff to LoS, open areas, roads, etc.

Sprinkle in GYs that can be taken, have MULTIPLE starting areas (say, north/south of the map) that are inaccessible to the other side - something like EotS's starting area (without that stupid bubble), only five or so of 'em on each side.

Folks can enter and start killing... leave when they want (no deserter buff, since there's no end of the map). Have a reasonable max. team size - say, 40 on each size - and let the battle roll.

If you wanted something a LITTLE more interesting, you could put "strategic nodes" that, if held, gave your side a buff. Capture the mystical henge on the hill and, as long as your side holds it, your faction gets +5% spell power. Capture the old abandoned (and crumbling badly) stockade with the training dummies, you faction gets +5% attack power. (The numbers are probably horrible... just work with me here.)

The best part would be that people wanting to just go farm honor would have someplace to go, and leave the other battlegrounds to folks that actually had some intention of trying to win.

[Accuser.]

OP here...

One more time, I wasnt -seriously- saying that Bliz should or will remove arenas. Just pointing out that this idea would make BGs way more fun than arena is for me and a lot of other people.

Great idea of an "endless HK farm BG" btw... get all the red-name-chasers in one place.

[Exeeter]

Arenas are about competetive gaming, Battlegrounds will never come close to the skill and effort that Arena players seek.

People need to come to terms with somthing here.. somting that blizz has done unitentionally.. and that is that they have pretty much branded arena as the "respectable pvp" route. Many people LOVE pvp... and at the same time are disgusted with the way arena works.. class compostion is key before everything else.. if u dont agree then u are ill informed.. and with the scaled down head count... many classes are put under the microscope serverley, and this has only cause problems with balance in the long run..

Of course the way current bgs are right now, its a zergfest/honor grinding extravaganza.. but its soo important that (and blizz has acknowledged) that there are actually players that enjoy large scale pvp... and feel cheated that they cannot climb the ladder due to a difficult system to gauge pvp skill.. arena is by far NOT the be all end all pvp measure. I for one am anticipating what blizz has in store for this new system in the works..

Arenas are about competetive gaming, Battlegrounds will never come close to the skill and effort that Arena players seek.

So a match of tennis doubles is more prestigious then say a game of worldclass soccer? let me ask somthing... 15v15 ab both teams are arranged and have all the key classes and specs available.. and both teams are in full furious pvp gear with the BiS that the game can offer

team a) bunch of highly skilled arena players that dont bg
team b) bunch of players that partake in Organized bgs all the time

can u really put one if front of the other as far as respectable standards go? i personally think not.. by a large margin too..

There are many competitive games out there right now that MLG would gladly take in that have teams exceeding 10 players or even 15.. why cant any atention be brought to this in wows bgs? because its too hard to implament in the actual game itslef? plz... im sure there are pleny of people who would love to get a team together to demonstrate there strategy and coordination prowess over anothers.. especially in solid formulas like CTF or KotH

[Callsign Grunge]

Arena doesn't have to be ditched for them to make bg's better. Arena is the most skill based pvp in the game and this difference wouldn't change that.

I lol'd, hard.

[Accuser.]

Rather than making this a "arena is teh suck" thread, this is intended to be a "BGs are honor grinds atm, lets make them fun" thread.

Does anyone actually oppose the idea of making BGs emphasize winning and objectives rather than kill-farming? If not, isnt this system the best way to do it?

[Exeeter]

Rather than making this a "arena is teh suck" thread, this is intended to be a "BGs are honor grinds atm, lets make them fun" thread.

Does anyone actually oppose the idea of making BGs emphasize winning and objectives rather than kill-farming? If not, isnt this system the best way to do it?

The problem is that, who exactly gets rewarded for "winning" the BG? the player who has completed numerous objectives? or the player that just autofallowed another player around?

If all honor was distributed at the end of a bg for teh winning team rather then granting honor for hks to influence players to do objectives rather then farm in the middle of WSG for exp, then there will be numerous players

a) entering a half finished bg and receiving full game rewards

b) everyone fighting for objectives... effectivley singling out many players who arent fast enough or at the right place at the right time...

with a few exceptions of course

[Exeeter]

BG gear is about stamina and not resilience. Therefor they should just make bg gear. you nix resil and hand out stamina wam bam you have bg gear that is seperate from arena.a

? i dont understand how that is even coherent....

ESPECIALLY after the resil changes comming up