Dont remove Arena... but change BGs to this to make them BETTER than arena!

[Accuser.]

Was reading all the "ditch arena" comments on the "what would you change" thread. Arena isnt bad, but what kind of battleground system would we have if arena didnt exist? One with a ranked system? One where you went in to HAVE FUN and to WIN rather than to grind honor? Maybe where you wouldnt hear "let them win, I want to get my mark and move on"?

TL;DR

(1) More honor for winning, completing objectives, etc. None for kills.
(2) When a BG ends, you can choose to 'requeue with this group'.
(3) Three tier levels per BG queue: the green, blue, and purple tiers. Winning promotes you / your team to the higher tiers, which are worth more honor. (see next post for more info)
(4) On BG holidays, an orange tier for that BG becomes available. Winning at orange gives access to top gear.

Full story, explanation, FAQs, etc at:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...n4LQnQEcEAFGhu

Edit: changed the title to indicate that no, we dont HAVE to remove Arena.

[talitu]

i agree 100% with the removing honour for kills , put it all on win/loss. got so bored of muppets in teh middle farming HK's getting 2X or more the honour of people actually being useful i stopped playing em

[Accuser.]

Great examples from the thread:


WSG - A druid grabs the enemy flag. You are a healer solo at midfield, and there are four enemy players at midfield between you and the enemy base. You can see from the map that your FC is alone, and you realize the best strategy is to lure the defenders to the wrong side of the map so your druid can use her speed to get across. So you move to the bottom of the ramp acting like your FC is going that way and you're planning to heal her. In doing so, the four enemy defenders come over and kill you, giving your FC enough time to go GY and get across unhindered.

What possible system could be put in place that would reward you for dying without doing any damage in this scenario?


AB - You are on horde, your team has a 3-2 node advantage, and your are rezzing at your own starting GY. There are three ally camping the GY, yet you are the only person rezzing there. You know you could ghost run to another GY, but realize that by continuing to rez and die, you are effectively making it a 12 on 14 game.

Who deserves more honor here? The three ally that are uselessly camping the one horde and getting HKs, or the one horde dieing for the sake of the victory?


AV - You are a warlock and both your team and the other faction have all the bunkers / towers burned and the captains killed. You are at Snowfall where several members of both teams are fighting for the GY. Should you (a) stay at SF, near the flag, and earn "meaningful" kills by being near an objective? Or (b) use your trinket to get back to your general's room where you can slow down the other team by 30+ seconds with a couple well placed fears?

What should get more honor? Getting some HKs near the Snowfall flag, or causing a reset or two on the general?

[kailtas]

well giving honor to players partisipating in general and captain fights where the fight is reset or won is a good idea.
50 honor would be a nice one + the honor from killing
or give captains and generals a 70 yard aura that increases honor gained from killing in that range.

[Accuser.]

The idea of the thread is to forget about trying to determine who contributed what to the win, only to reward winning. What about the guy that charged into the enemy-controlled graveyard, swarmed by enemy players, but keeping them off the GY flag long enough for teammates to cap? Oh wait, that wouldnt happen if you were rewarded for fighting specifically on location X or Y.

Rewarding behavior A or B with honor will only detract from what SHOULD be the only goal, winning the match.

[gehennaspawn]

I really enjoyed that thread, thanks for the pointer.

Great ideas. : )

[Chimpzilla]

Sounds great.

[Shotagious]

Love the idea of competitive BGing.

[Unionoob]

nice ideas.. but about honor system which is right now its horible just did 2 WSG was flag runer prot Paladin.. all games 3/0 without any death both times but then I look at end.. I get 1.1k Honor and few other people which farmed hk's in midle got 1.8k honor.. you say its fair? well if it is then fuck flag runing better kill shit..

[Frostweaver]

yea this idea could develop into something if only blizz could set the eyes on it..

[Soowoo]

Well this would be a great thing to go into affect, but should replace arenas.

Top arena teams don't do it for the gear, they do it cause its fun. And they certaintly don't do it for honor...

[hoopaholik91]

This is nothing different than a larger arena. And, if you wanted to implement something like this, you would have to make it possible to have Horde vs Horde, or Alliance v Alliance, because some of the battlegroups are so skewed you would just end up with one faction or the other dominating the top tier and the balance between both would be so messed up. It is almost impossible to rank BG's because you don't pick your partners, and if you set a price for just winning then you are screwing the team that is disadvantaged in that battlegroup. I don't even know why you are complaining, because you can buy pvp gear for nothing but arena points, and even the deadly gear we have now is nothing more than 4 WG quests for a piece. BG's are just too broken to be fixed.

[Proyouknow]

Why remove the Arena instead of just implementing this?

Arenas are about competetive gaming, Battlegrounds will never come close to the skill and effort that Arena players seek.

[TwistedPower]

I PvP to kill people, Not to play around with flags. I only play BG's for the honor, not to kill people, becuase it requires 0 skill to group up and spam your high dps moves.

PvPing in a bg for honor kills is like fighting a boss with no agro and a random target. The other team may choose to kill you they may choose not to. It is not fun to run with 10 other people into 10 other people just to respawn and do it again.

It gets realy old, realy fast and there is no interesting part of it. If arena was removed and bg's were all that was left i probibly wouldnt bg much. Infact i would probibly find another game to play when i wasnt raiding. Thats how BORING bg's are.

Its not worth forming a group often for a bg becuase nobody wants to spend the time, then people leave, and you cant always find geared people becuase people who have gear dont need to BG thus they dont becuase it sucks.

If you made it so that winning a bg was so much greater then losing a bg it would create a problem eventually. Where one bg, lets use WSG for example, would turn out like this "o i dont wanna play wsg the alliance always win" and when you get into it everybody would go, "see aliance do always win, i give up and i'm queue for somthing else."

If anybody remembers when bg's were server only, my old server had these 2 hord guilds that would OWN ab every day in premades. I mean like super 5 cap 3 min wins, and they had all the pvp pieces becuase they had so much honor and nobody on aliance played AB unless they needed the marks. Then they would play 30 losing games for the marks and then be done with it.

Lastly, to all you people who dislike people who say camp the gy. Somtimes, you get into a bg and a 2's or 3's team is in there just trying to get honor. They are fully geared and camp the GY of the enime. They own everybody there and half the people cant even res. You team just walks into the base and across the field like its nothing. Now who is to say that camping the GY was ideal for allowing the easy win?

Also often enough people who kill in the middle of the field stop allot of people from crossing and getting into the base. Only 1-2 guys actually make it to the flag. Then when they come out of the base its not a hord of 8 players. Much easyer to pick them off.

It all depends on how effective what the person is doing in RELATION to everybody else. Not just the fact the he/she is doing it.

Becuase of that last sentence i just wrote, you cannot ever give more honor to people who do one task or another becuase everybody contributes. That guy camping the gy just aoe slowed everybody who spawned and your flag carrier was able to make it into your base to cap becuase nobody could mount up and reach him. But he gets no honor becuase he wasnt the one who capped the flag?

Not all people who just kill in bg's help, but if they are any good they can often help a great deal even if you dont want to admit it. Then again you get people in greens trying to do the same thing.

Final thought any player knows that a person in all pvp epics, even if they are only hatefull far outgears people in blues. So no matter what that person in blues does, he/she is probibly going to be realy horrible at it.

So if you base your system on the value of what a person does, the people who actually need the honor wont get the honor becuase their gear isnt going to allow them to kill verry well. Becuase i highly doubt that the warrior in his blues is going to kill the healer in full hatefull or beter gear and not just get 3 shotted by some destro lock.

[Narit]

dont do BGs for honor, do them for marks which=more honor and u get honor for winning

[Plawsky]

This is one of the best suggestions I've read in a long time. Would definitely take a lot of changes to implement, but I think it would be great. If the system worked well enough, a lot more people would start doing BGs and forming teams. If Blizzard wants to get people interested in BGs again (which they do), I think this would be the perfect thing to do it.

[Frostitute]

I dont understand why people would want this? So, you no longer have arenas. Then you have a new system of ranked bg's and a new way to get gear for..what? To do more bg's? I already despise battlegrounds and if I had any other way of getting honor and tokens in order to get arena gear I would.

Battlegrounds are full of people in greens after lolfreeepics. How many times have you been in a WSG with the enemy team turtled in their fr and just watched your teammates spawn and suicide run in one after another. I have seen it countless times.

If thats all pvp became in this game then blizzard would lose a lot of customers, and thats why they will never do it.

[Shadowysaint]

I dont understand why people would want this?
Then you have a new system of ranked bg's and a new way to get gear for..what?
to do more bg's?
If thats all pvp became in this game then blizzard would lose a lot of customers, and thats why they will never do it.

Stupid idea to remove arena; BTW... The top teams in arena do it for fun, BECAUSE THEY LIKE ARENA. Removing their fun would be taking away your current argument, good way to strengthen your opinion. Not to mention the stupid 5v5 in the middle of WSG does actually contribute, you stop GOOD players from getting into the flag room / protect their FC, and their inadvertently, retard solution to help the team. BUT IT HELPZ.

Arena is fun for me, and i only battle ground to do arena; I love doing 2v2 with my partner because it's our skill vs. theirs
(ignoring combination of teams and "counter comp's")

Removing arena = loss of 50% of "pvper's" and 70%+ percent of people do BG's to get better pvp gear i would bet.

[drbutcher]

To all people who will tell arena is "skill" i will tell them my story and why i stopped playing arena in s3.Keep in mind i do like pvp and i have over 150.000HK with my main.

Back in s3 i was playing an enha shaman.I was in one of the top100 guild according to wowprogress so i wanted to have the BiS items.Back then the BiS weapons for enha shaman was from arena so i started playing.I thought it won't be a problem to get them because with my rogue i had over 2k rate in both s1 and s2.

Well i got my weapons but it took me around hmm 3 months to do it and i couldn't get any higher than that.Getting the shoulders was out of question.I tried a lot of different setups.Double dps with rogue/hunter/SP/lock or with a priest/druid/paladin healer.Nothing worked.

Then i leveled my priest.I found a rogue and we started playing some arenas.In 3 weeks i got my shoulders and my priest had some green gear one him....

So how can it be skill?There are 4-5 setups in 2vs2 and in 3vs3 with which you can get high rates.Then we have arena players saying that pve players are bots.They have to follow some "simple" orders to kill a boss.Really?And what about arenas?Isn't it the same?

Go to youtube and type priest rogue arena 2vs2 or rmp 3vs3 or Dk paladin 2vs2.Watch some videos of the same setup and tell me if you can understand the difference between each team.They are all doing the same.They all open with the same way,they use their CDs at the same time and at the same oppenent.There are also guides on many sites telling people what to do with their setup VS other setups like bots... Ofcourse at the very top teams you need some skills to win VS the 2 other top setups or the mirror image.But its the same in pve as well if you want to be in one of the very top guilds.

Ofcourse there are exceptions to this rule.I know an enha shaman who manage to get 2200 rate in s3.But he spent many many hours trying to do this.Why should i spend so much time when i can have the same results with a priest (sorry for the priests but thats what i tried back then :P) in 3 weeks with some green items and without any experience with the class?

Arena was introduced in the game by blizzard for one simple reason.Money.It ruined the game because it has nothing to do with the BG so blizzard is trying to balance the game around 3 different things (arena/BG/pve) which is impossible.You see hunters for example doing great in BGs but in arenas they are crap.The only way to balance arenas is to have counters for each class like it used to be in vanilla wow.But blizzard don't want this either because of the QQ some players did back then (ohhh i am a rogue and i can't a warrior QQ ,oh i am a warrior and i can't kill a mage QQ.Good old days :P).

Finally to the poster who said BGs are ful of people with green gear.It is that way because BGs don't offer anything to someone with gear atm.90% of the people you see in BGs are ALTS!Free epix?It takes less time to farm gold than honor in our days so you can get your free epix from AH.Also doing pugs naxx to get free epix also takes less time.If BGs had something to offer to geared people then you would have seen a lot of them there.

So what's the solution?I really don't know and it's not my job to know.They don't pay me for this.It's blizzard job to find a solution.

[Plawsky]

I don't think they should remove arenas - but this should still be added. There's no way you could say arenas take more skills than organized BGs. Putting 10/15 skilled players up against another team of skilled players would make BGs much more skill oriented and would definitely make them more fun. Plus, they wouldn't rely nearly as much on certain comps and specs.