Ret Paladins & SoV

[Failure @ Large]

Last night in Ulduar my guild was killing Vezax and when the fight ended i asked our Ret Pally's (we had two) this question. Please keep in mind that i play a feral druid and while i have played most other classes in WoW (i have a lot of rl friends that play) I've NEVER played a paladin.

Since SoV does the most damage when stacked five times, i asked our ret pallys why they didnt throw on a fast hitting 1 handed weapon and sheild and get 5 stacks much quicker. The only response was a laugh from them, and no one mentioned it again.

Before you say that dps will dip - this is a given, however, if 5 stacks of SoV are up faster, doesnt that leave more time for DPS? Also, with a 1handed you could simply use SoR while stacking the debuff.

Basically what i want to know is, why dont ret pallys use a faster weapon while stacking SoV, and then switch the 2h once there is a 5 stack?


Flame me if you want, just post an answer to pls

[Soulbender]

somebody at EJ has caculated it was losing dps. brb checking post

edit : forgot where it is.
But anyway, you're talking sucking for 10 seconds instead of 14... mmmh. Doesnt look worthy.
And those 10 seconds with 1H would do sooo little melee damage...

And using SoR doesnt stack SoV, usually :P

Givf dual wield!

[Nillo]

Basically what i want to know is, why dont ret pallys use a faster weapon while stacking SoV, and then switch the 2h once there is a 5 stack?

Doing close to no damage with your abilities while you have the 1H equipped and wasting 1 GCD + swing timer for reequipping your 2H makes it a DPS loss.

[Prentice]

-5 attacks against the target with a 1h will land for 700-1200 with a fast 1h weapon(1.6) in a period of about 8 seconds. You will have to burn a GCD to weapon swap thus taking you out to 10 seconds before your first 2H attack/special.
-5 attacks against a target with an average 2H(3.6) will hit for 2000-3000 in a period of 18 seconds.

These scenarios do not include the benefits of haste. Without any procs, I have a 2.61 swing speed on my 3.6 weapon in raid. This takes my stack time down to 13 seconds. Using a fast 1H loses its allure when you consider that you get the stack up quickly while doing considerably less damage and you lose the GCD once the stack is up. This has been theorycrafted on EJ and found that the 1H stacking method is not a DPS gain.

EDIT: Had to think about it but I believe he means Shield of the Righteous when saying SoR(which is normally Seal of Righteousness).

[Failure @ Large]

And using SoR doesnt stack SoV, usually :P

Not talking about the seal - im talking about Shield of Rightouesness (spelling :-\)

Doesnt it measure with Sheild Block value? And Str? Dont ret pally's stack str? I dunno, i figured that would hit for something...

[Failure @ Large]

These scenarios do not include the benefits of haste. Without any procs, I have a 2.61 swing speed on my 3.6 weapon in raid. This takes my stack time down to 13 seconds. Using a fast 1H loses its allure when you consider that you get the stack up quickly while doing considerably less damage and you lose the GCD once the stack is up. This has been theorycrafted on EJ and found that the 1H stacking method is not a DPS gain.

EDIT: Had to think about it but I believe he means Shield of the Righteous when saying SoR(which is normally Seal of Righteousness).

heh, thats the spell i was thinking of...

As for your haste mention - im usually all for EJ, since they have decent druid shtuff there too, but wouldnt your haste - since you go from a 3.60 to 2.61 - effect your one handed, effectivly making it go from 1.6 to 1.0 or possibly lower, making you stack MUCH faster?

[Prentice]

heh, thats the spell i was thinking of...

As for your haste mention - im usually all for EJ, since they have decent druid shtuff there too, but wouldnt your haste - since you go from a 3.60 to 2.61 - effect your one handed, effectivly making it go from 1.6 to 1.0 or possibly lower, making you stack MUCH faster?

This is true. I didn't mention it because I just assumed that it would be understood. However, doing 40% of normal damage as compared to the damage dealt with a 2H equipped while building the stack to shave off 5 seconds(counting the GCD lost from weapon swap) just isn't worth it.

[Nillo]

heh, thats the spell i was thinking of...

As for your haste mention - im usually all for EJ, since they have decent druid shtuff there too, but wouldnt your haste - since you go from a 3.60 to 2.61 - effect your one handed, effectivly making it go from 1.6 to 1.0 or possibly lower, making you stack MUCH faster?

possibly lower o0? 1.6*2.6/3.6 ~ 1.15.
So you save 13-5*1.15-1.5 (gcd for swapping/lost weapon swing) = 5.75 seconds stacking, which is about 3/5 of a full SoV swing plus 7/5 ticks (you'll finish stacking 3 ticks earlier and your first tick will do double dmg).
But you loose the damage of about 2 Weapon swings (5 hits with a 1H + 1 swing timer lost while swapping) + 3 Weapon based abilities (Cons+Shor+Exo+X with 1H against 2 CS + 1 Judge + 1 DivStorm + Cons with 2H).

[Eurytos]

Plain and simple it is a dps loss. Especially in a long, stand still fight like Vezax. Since we really dont have to move, there is no risks of the stacks ever falling off, therefore making up for anytime the 1h would "save" us. It would make more sense to stack the dot faster on something that dies quicker, even if the 1h had enough speed to make up for the dmg lost. But in instances like this we use seal of Righteousness(the real SoR, ;P), which is also more dps than a 1h and SoV.

In any event, a ret pally switching to a 1h is never a good idea. Its nice to see players at least asking questions of their guildies on how their class works. Provided its for the betterment of the guild and not to slam them.

[Asgard]

Not a pro theorycrafter, but it does seem to be a dps loss indeed in long steady fights. What about Faction champions ? That might seem stupid but if you spend 15-18 sec stacking SoV, your target will most likely be dead after 2-3 swings

[DaGhostDS]

like it has been said its bad..

not to mention the fact that Shield of Righteousness kinda badly increases our threat.

not anymore

[Eurytos]

Not a pro theorycrafter, but it does seem to be a dps loss indeed in long steady fights. What about Faction champions ? That might seem stupid but if you spend 15-18 sec stacking SoV, your target will most likely be dead after 2-3 swings

I dont use SoV until after the healers are dead. I'm often switching off targets quickly to throw a repentance or a BoP or a stun, causing SoV to drop off, not to mention that it gets dispelled quite often(and its not nearly that good of a mana burn on THESE healers). I use SoR and judge Justice. I thought about using SoJustice, but they become immune to the stun effect so quickly that its not really worth it. Once the healers are down, I switch to SoV, because at that point im not really CCing much any more and I can focus on one target. Also, none of the Faction Champions have ever died within 2-3 weapon swings in my attempts.

[Terradii]

also the tick is based on ur weapon damage so it wouldnt be as powerful

[Failure @ Large]

hmm, well its nice to see people acctually answering questions rather than laugh @ the idea of a pally w/ 1h + sheild. Again, I've never played the class, and the only reason I'm vaguely aware of the mechanics is because my guild contains several paladins, and i like to know what everyone is doing.

This being said - SoR (the real SoR :-[), after someone mentioned it, i looked it up on a few websites. Since it hits off EVERY melee attack, does it hit twice off judgements as well - if so, is the dps from SoR to SoV that much different, and which is the "go to" seal for paladins now, like Blood/Martyr was before they got rid of it.

Some of these questions will prolly seem stupid, but i'd like to know these things since i dont already :-\

[DaGhostDS]

hmm, well its nice to see people acctually answering questions rather than laugh @ the idea of a pally w/ 1h + sheild. Again, I've never played the class, and the only reason I'm vaguely aware of the mechanics is because my guild contains several paladins, and i like to know what everyone is doing.

TSince it hits off EVERY melee attack, does it hit twice off judgements as well -

common misconception.. it just proc a seal attack (cant crit) + judgement damage

[Ronark]

SoR - for thrash and fights with lotsa switching.
SoV - for life.

This pretty much.

Using ShoR won't stack SoV and we waste a GCD on a weaker hit as well.

[Switchshot]

For so many reasons. No. SoV isnt our only form of damage. A 1-handed weapon may make you stack faster, but then out judgement, DS, and CS damage all drops signifigantly

[Copain]

Not talking about the seal - im talking about Shield of Rightouesness (spelling :-\\)

Doesnt it measure with Sheild Block value? And Str? Dont ret pally\'s stack str? I dunno, i figured that would hit for something...

(Not bothering to read all the post here, just this for now)

Formally, the shield hit for a godo amount. I can tell you as a Tank Pally I saw it hit for 6K+ without me using any BV gear (or gems). But now taht they capped it and such, I get 1K crits if I\'m lucky (without using much BV gear, I just have some more STR).

[Swampmoose]

Before you say that dps will dip - this is a given

You answered your own question.

[Copain]

You answered your own question.

He was refering to overall being higher, and saying it was a short dip to start.