where does the Alliance are the bad guys argument come from?

[Kynlas]

I've played the RTS games and from what I can tell the Orc's originally invaded Azeroth in the first war, and then were the ones that started the second war by invading Lordaeron. By that logic, wouldn't the Alliance have some kind of right to hate and fear the Horde?

I'm sure there's some background lore I'm missing, but seeing as the Orc's were the aggressors in both of the first two wars, where does the Alliance get the rep that they are the "bad guys"?

[artrax]

http://www.wowwiki.com/Varian_Wrynn

[Prm]

Thing is that if you ever played War1 or 2 (NOT 3), youre gonna notice that there is no burning legion nor other "orcs are influenced by demons" crap. I personally think that War3 and Wow were in plans at same time. Blizzard had to prepare the background story in a way that neither faction is good or bad, because as we all know most would pick the alliance - good guys. You have to realize that this game hasnt got solid lore.

[Ivion]

The Alliance are viewed the bad guys because lots of people are narrow minded and don't know anything about Varian. They saw the Undercity questchain, saw Varians (Justified) reaction, and flip out. "OMG VARIAN WANT FIGHT ALLIANCE R EVILLLLLLLL".

[Khalahn]

Lesson to all: do not eat 5 lbs. of rumcake and then post on a forum. You WILL be entirely wrong ^_^

[Soyuz]

That argument comes from Horde fanboys.
If you ask an Alliance fanboy, the Horde are the bad guys.

Both sides are equally right and equally wrong.

"In war there are no winners, only great losses"

[Ivion]

The reason? Simple: The Orcs ended the first war by sailing across the sea to set up a new home. How did the Alliance races react? They followed and started another war because...well...they're assholes.

No, the Orcs ended the first war by decimating Stormwind and then moving against Lorderon with the obvious intent of conquering and destroying them too, thus starting the second war.

And if you're talking about Admiral Proudmoore attacking Durotar well, why should he spare them? Can you give a reason that he, as a person, would believe? They burned his fleets. They would have slaughtered every single human, elf and dwarf. If I saw these monsters, for lack of better term, retreating, I would believe, like he probably did, that they're gathering their strength for another push. Asshole? Yeah, no.

[fenway]

The reason? Simple: The Orcs ended the first war by sailing across the sea to set up a new home. How did the Alliance races react? They followed and started another war because...well...they're assholes.

You like to just completely make shit up, don't you?

Here's the opening cinematic of the second war.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjT-GaaLLeo

"Eager to engage in battle once again the orcs constructed ships of war to bare them across the great sea."

As it shows hundreds of Orc ships attacking the Alliance keep...

[Nalnik]

The reason? Simple: The Orcs ended the first war by sailing across the sea to set up a new home. How did the Alliance races react? They followed and started another war because...well...they're assholes.

Your avatar is fitting.

The First War ended with the Horde sacking Stormwind City and the humans retreating to Lordaeron.

The Second War started with the Horde pushing north to once again attack the Alliance.

Have you even read the lore?

[Khalahn]

Your avatar is fitting.

The First War ended with the Horde sacking Stormwind City and the humans retreating to Lordaeron.

The Second War started with the Horde pushing north to once again attack the Alliance.

Have you even read the lore?

Eh, been years since I've played the RTS games and probably mixed up storylines with something else =p
Better reason the Alliance is seen as the bad guys: They have GNOMES. Oh, and the biggest bomb you'll ever see >.>

[Gyrkan]

I spend aloooot of time on wowwiki becouse i love the warcraft lore. It started with playing WoW as horde, but then i got curious and asked why is it like that and why is it like this? so, i began to read. it didn't take long untill i bought wc3 and played through it and noticed every bit of lore i could find.
It's like someone before me said, everythings twisted it's like the horde and alliance are in a 1-1 situation and both so eager to win so they don't care about the real threat, Sargeras.
First the orcs got poisoned and started a war, then when they finally is pured from this the hatred is soooo big from some humans that they keep fighting. Some horde do not wish more fighting, but they have to, to defend their race.
in the same time they are the ones that fears the burning legion the most, but for the alliance, their biggest threat that have torn them apart is the lich king. Hense, the lich king was created to work on the same team that the legion, so both the factions are equal positioned. this is no surprise. blizzard had to made the game equal for all players. But as my experience as horde i have to say the alliance are mean bastards, c'mon look at the gnomes its like purified little demons of the devil!

[Bael]

Yes, in warcraft one and two the orcish hordes appeared fully to be a band of blood-thirsty alien invaders. But when all three games are taken into account together we find that they were simply tools manipulated and twisted to that end. That doesn't change the view that most of the Alliance will have toward them.

Next we have hatemongering commanders in the Alliance such as the one who ultimately labelled the high elves as traitors and sentenced them to an unjust death. That a person if that caliber could rise high in command speaks very poorly of the Alliance. Apparently so desperate were they for sufficient warriors that they couldn't afford to be picky, and the stock from which they chose was poor.

And until Icecrown, the unofficial head of the Alliance appeared to be a justly angry king who unfortunately seemed to be unable to control his rage. Give that he performed so well as a gladiator, I suppose that is almost to be expected. However, based on his more recent actions he may yet be able to grow calm and actually lead when it's necessary. Who knows? Maybe even Garrosh will one day find the same.

Meanwhile the entire time since the wars ended, the races of the Alliance have for the most part been very poor hosts to the orcs. When it became known that they were victims and displaced refugees, the general reaction was still to imprison them or push them out. Very little effort has been put into sharing resources as evidenced by Theramore and any of the battlegrounds you choose to visit.

All this being said, I've been Alliance for four years.

And to all the "this game has no lore" statements I can only reply that "you are either blind and deaf or willfully stupid."

[Ivion]

Yes, in warcraft one and two the orcish hordes appeared fully to be a band of blood-thirsty alien invaders. But when all three games are taken into account together we find that they were simply tools manipulated and twisted to that end. That doesn't change the view that most of the Alliance will have toward them.

Next we have hatemongering commanders in the Alliance such as the one who ultimately labelled the high elves as traitors and sentenced them to an unjust death. That a person if that caliber could rise high in command speaks very poorly of the Alliance. Apparently so desperate were they for sufficient warriors that they couldn't afford to be picky, and the stock from which they chose was poor.

And until Icecrown, the unofficial head of the Alliance appeared to be a justly angry king who unfortunately seemed to be unable to control his rage. Give that he performed so well as a gladiator, I suppose that is almost to be expected. However, based on his more recent actions he may yet be able to grow calm and actually lead when it's necessary. Who knows? Maybe even Garrosh will one day find the same.

Meanwhile the entire time since the wars ended, the races of the Alliance have for the most part been very poor hosts to the orcs. When it became known that they were victims and displaced refugees, the general reaction was still to imprison them or push them out. Very little effort has been put into sharing resources as evidenced by Theramore and any of the battlegrounds you choose to visit.

All this being said, I've been Alliance for four years.

And to all the "this game has no lore" statements I can only reply that "you are either blind and deaf or willfully stupid."

Even Thrall wrote in Rise of the Horde that his people need to stop using the "but we were tricked" argument. They chose their path. Yeah it wasn't what they thought it was, but when Orc Jesus says that the Orcs fucked up, they fucked up.

Varian has also done an excellent job controlling his temper, all things considered. The summit at Theramore for example. He put up with Garrosh, parading around like a loon. He put up with the fact that his ex slavemaster is now the right hand adviser to Thrall. Hell, he even rolled his eyes, but put up with Thrall saying "No, dude, we got it. It's fine" after the Wrathgate. It takes quite a bit to make Varian snap. Garrosh does it fairly easily, but under most other circumstances, he's level headed.
In regards to sharing resources, Varian and Thrall almost, almost had Warsong Gulch settled. Then of course, Garona ruined it. Thanks Garona. (kidding.)

[Ravasha]

Both have done their bad things. Have you ever played Escape from Durnholde Keep in Caverns of Time?

[Nalnik]

Yes, in warcraft one and two the orcish hordes appeared fully to be a band of blood-thirsty alien invaders. But when all three games are taken into account together we find that they were simply tools manipulated and twisted to that end. That doesn't change the view that most of the Alliance will have toward them.

Next we have hatemongering commanders in the Alliance such as the one who ultimately labelled the high elves as traitors and sentenced them to an unjust death. That a person if that caliber could rise high in command speaks very poorly of the Alliance. Apparently so desperate were they for sufficient warriors that they couldn't afford to be picky, and the stock from which they chose was poor.

And until Icecrown, the unofficial head of the Alliance appeared to be a justly angry king who unfortunately seemed to be unable to control his rage. Give that he performed so well as a gladiator, I suppose that is almost to be expected. However, based on his more recent actions he may yet be able to grow calm and actually lead when it's necessary. Who knows? Maybe even Garrosh will one day find the same.

Meanwhile the entire time since the wars ended, the races of the Alliance have for the most part been very poor hosts to the orcs. When it became known that they were victims and displaced refugees, the general reaction was still to imprison them or push them out. Very little effort has been put into sharing resources as evidenced by Theramore and any of the battlegrounds you choose to visit.

All this being said, I've been Alliance for four years.

And to all the "this game has no lore" statements I can only reply that "you are either blind and deaf or willfully stupid."

To be fair, in the Ulduar trailer, the King held back until Garrosh attacked him, not the other way around.

How would you expect the Alliance to react?

Oh, you only slaughtered thousands upon thousands of innocent men, women, and children, destroyed entire kingdoms, etc, etc, and continue hostilities today, but you were under demonic influence at the start, so it's all forgiven?

[skrump]

That argument comes from Horde fanboys.
If you ask an Alliance fanboy, the Horde are the bad guys.

Both sides are equally right and equally wrong.

"In war there are no winners, only great losses"

That is retarded
Conqueror = win
Conquered =Lose
Defended = (what happened in warcraft with the alliance so they limp along
Failure= what happens to every horde race that has ever picked a fight with the alliance.


Simply put the Alliance does not forgive/forget no matter how good your excuse for trying to annihilate them is.
In short the alliance holds a grudge.

Oh yeah
The friend of the enemy is a enemy is nothing more than a extension of the enemy themself.

[Dackout]

My reason for disliking Alliance is how they've acted towards the neutral Horde that makes them seem like bigots. Orcs were once tainted with demon blood and went to war with the Alliance. Now the Blood Curse is over and the Alliance is still attacking orcs even though the demonic resemblance is gone. Despite the Forsaken's free will, they treat them like any other form of Undead even though they can communicate easily. Look at Kael'thas' story in WC3, the Alliance basically steals his main force and leaves him surrounded by Scourge. I know Garithos is a bastard, but nobody questioned his decision? "Hey, huge surge of Scourge activity, let's leave a handfull of men with no funds, that'll work." Not to mention the Night elves who, for some reason, have totally bigot women who refuse having the presence of other races in their forests and attack those on sight while most men have 'elevated' into Druids (Seriously, pre-WoW, there were no female Druids) and they are all cool people. Dwarves are just weird, there are three Dwarves who are important in WoW lore and they're all brothers. Then there's the Draenei, the Spy vs. Spy equivalent of WoW, either they're totally batshit evil and demonic or they're relying completely on the Naaru's blessings. Also, gnomes are only there for whenever an Alliance member feels like having gnome kabobs. Not to mention the whole typical Tolkien feel they have, you've got the dwarves, hobbits (gnomes of course), humans and wood-living elves. Unlike Tolkien's depiction of Orcs, WoW's aren't dumb-ass brutes who know only fighting, they actually have an interesting story. Trolls are also pretty unique. Also, I can never see myself playing as a gnomes or dwarf, but I can see myself playing as any race on the Horde side.

[Deleted]

Thing is that if you ever played War1 or 2 (NOT 3), youre gonna notice that there is no burning legion nor other "orcs are influenced by demons" crap. I personally think that War3 and Wow were in plans at same time. Blizzard had to prepare the background story in a way that neither faction is good or bad, because as we all know most would pick the alliance - good guys. You have to realize that this game hasnt got solid lore.

Maybe plans, but not development.. Theres HUUUUGE differences in graphics and shit

[Nerph-]

We all know Alliance > Horde ;D

The Horde are just in denial (and I don't mean the river in Egypt!)

[Nalnik]

My reason for disliking Alliance is how they've acted towards the neutral Horde that makes them seem like bigots. Orcs were once tainted with demon blood and went to war with the Alliance. Now the Blood Curse is over and the Alliance is still attacking orcs even though the demonic resemblance is gone. Despite the Forsaken's free will, they treat them like any other form of Undead even though they can communicate easily. Look at Kael'thas' story in WC3, the Alliance basically steals his main force and leaves him surrounded by Scourge. I know Garithos is a bastard, but nobody questioned his decision? "Hey, huge surge of Scourge activity, let's leave a handfull of men with no funds, that'll work." Not to mention the Night elves who, for some reason, have totally bigot women who refuse having the presence of other races in their forests and attack those on sight while most men have 'elevated' into Druids (Seriously, pre-WoW, there were no female Druids) and they are all cool people. Dwarves are just weird, there are three Dwarves who are important in WoW lore and they're all brothers. Then there's the Draenei, the Spy vs. Spy equivalent of WoW, either they're totally batshit evil and demonic or they're relying completely on the Naaru's blessings. Also, gnomes are only there for whenever an Alliance member feels like having gnome kabobs. Not to mention the whole typical Tolkien feel they have, you've got the dwarves, hobbits (gnomes of course), humans and wood-living elves. Unlike Tolkien's depiction of Orcs, WoW's aren't dumb-ass brutes who know only fighting, they actually have an interesting story. Trolls are also pretty unique. Also, I can never see myself playing as a gnomes or dwarf, but I can see myself playing as any race on the Horde side.

With regards to the elves:

If a band of an unknown faction comes into your homeland, armed and armored for war, and starts to destroy your homeland, how would you react?

Kindly ask the warband to leave, or treat them as they treat your home?