New Ret cc/interrupt idea!

[Athael]

I disagree with you here. As a Ret Paladin, your job is to support your healer and other DPS in 3s just as much as it is to do damage.

Fair enough. So they stunned your warrior, and are focusing your druid. You BOP the druid, and HoF the warrior. Congrats, you've contributed.

Oh wait, a holy paladin could have done all that just as well or better, while taking the druid's place and freeing up a DPS slot.

My point is that, yes, ret paladins are decent support in a group environment, but they are easily replaceable by other classes or specs that can do the same stuff but better.

Cleanse isn't that great, it's a defensive-only version of a priest's Dispel, and a priest can control the battle better than a ret paladin can (Hell, even lolshadowpriests have an MS effect). HoF can A) be dispelled and B) is on a (admittedly short) cooldown. BOP can realistically only be used once in a fight, and can be dispelled by any shaman/priest/mage.

It's like this: Ret paladins are great in battlegrounds. They're very, very poor performers in arenas. Representation numbers back up this claim. In Cataclysm, they will be relevant thanks to rated BGs. Cataclysm is at least a year away. I don't want to wait a year to enjoy PvPing with my main.

[Ceara]

Fair enough. So they stunned your warrior, and are focusing your druid. You BOP the druid, and HoF the warrior. Congrats, you've contributed.

Oh wait, a holy paladin could have done all that just as well or better, while taking the druid's place and freeing up a DPS slot.

My point is that, yes, ret paladins are decent support in a group environment, but they are easily replaceable by other classes or specs that can do the same stuff but better.

Cleanse isn't that great, it's a defensive-only version of a priest's Dispel, and a priest can control the battle better than a ret paladin can (Hell, even lolshadowpriests have an MS effect). HoF can A) be dispelled and B) is on a (admittedly short) cooldown. BOP can realistically only be used once in a fight, and can be dispelled by any shaman/priest/mage.

Its useless discussing certain situations that arise, but a Holy Paladin can't do that while doing damage, nor does he have Repentance to further reduce incoming damage. And Cleanse is not a defense-only version of a Priest's dispel, it removes poison and disease and is more than twice as mana efficient.

There are classes that can do things a Ret can, but there is no class that can do everything a Ret can, and they do have their use.

[talii]

here's my thoughts on the much (by paladins) desired paladin interrupt. put it on a new major glyph that removes the speed restriction on judgment of justice in return for an interrupt with a 3 second school lock. with improved judgments, the cool down and school lock would be roughly comparable to shaman shocks (6 second cool down with 2 second school lock versus 8 second cool down with 3 second school lock).

whether or not this is the best way to implement such a mechanic into the class, like this method, it needs to be an option and not given base line across the board to all paladins. paladins have had numerous abilities tweaked and altered because, as a class, they have so very much versatility no matter the specific spec.

my justification for giving the trade off of an interrupt versus the speed limitations is that you have a very important choice to make; either have a better chance of keeping those who flee within your melee range, or the ability to break a cast. being able to have the best possible chance to staying in melee range and interrupt fairly frequently, in conjunction with all the paladin class has to offer already, would be a bit much.

Yes they should, when PvP is balanced around what every other melee has.

It's well and good to say, "In Cataclysm ret paladins will be more relevant!" So what, I'm supposed to be okay with my ret paladin sucking in arena for at least another year until the expansion comes out?

by your logic the game would quickly become very homogenized between many classes and the uniqueness of them stripped leaving a very well balanced pvp play environment with very indistinguishable classes. great for competitive pvp sure, absolutely horrible for the game as a whole.

while balance in pvp (and yes pve as well) is an issue, there is also the 'balance' of having equality between classes but keeping them different and fun in their own respects, it's a very difficult thing to do.

and to answer the question... yes. sorry but you are not a special unique snowflake. every class has it's weaknesses and wants, especially in pvp. the developers are working hard to improve things but aspects like giving a class the ability to interrupt which they didn't have before can cause more headaches and balancing issues than it's worth. considering they're revamping many things for cataclysm, you'll likely just have to deal with it for now.

[kekelsauce]

I had this idea:

Glyph of Arms Warrior: You can no longer heal, cast Divine Shield or Cleanse but gain a spell interrupt on a 10 second cooldown and your Crusader Strike applies a 50% healing debuff.

I laughed.

[Ceara]

Glyph of Exorcism - Your Exorcism spell now interrupts the target, but no longer deals damage.

I don't think you can give Rets an interrupt without taking something away, but I honestly don't feel they need one at this point.

[Athael]

Its useless discussing certain situations that arise, but a Holy Paladin can't do that while doing damage, nor does he have Repentance to further reduce incoming damage. And Cleanse is not a defense-only version of a Priest's dispel, it removes poison and disease and is more than twice as mana efficient.

There are classes that can do things a Ret can, but there is no class that can do everything a Ret can, and they do have their use.

Again, I agree with you that ret paladins do have their moments. But you said yourself, "PvP is balance around what a team of 3 has."

So what does it matter if a ret paladin has a unique blend of mediocre damage, mediocre control, and mediocre support? In a 3v3 environment, wouldn't you want a class with incredible damage and minor support, a class with incredible control and minor damage, and a class with incredible support and minor control?

It is not useless to discuss specific situations, because that is the sum of all PvP "theorycrafting." You compare the capabilities of one class and/or team against the capabilities of another and, assuming perfect player skill on both sides, try to figure out if there is an inherent advantage in one team over another. That's how you come up with FOTM comps like Beastcleave. 3 pets + 2 unkiteable DPS + MS effect + Bloodlust = great synergy in terms of what a Cleave team is trying to accomplish.

That's really what it comes down to in arena sandbox PvP, synergy. Ret paladins, as you have pretty much said, are jacks-of-all-trades. That's why they kick ass in duels and unsupported mob PvP (where it's pretty much every man for himself). But you don't need a jack-of-all-trades-but-master-of-none as part of your carefully planned and constructed 3v3 team. You need 3 puzzle pieces that come together to form something way more significant than the whole.

And let's face it. There are no ret paladins in the top 100 teams at all. Not one. Retadins don't bring that synergy to the table. If they're spamming cleanse and spamming HoF nonstop, they can't attack. They can only spam defensive spells, or attack, they can't do both, all their defensive utility shares the GCD with their attacks. Rogues have passive damage delivery/passive debuffs thanks to their poisons, in addition to their various utility. They can be doing damage and be bringing utility at the same time. Enhancement shamans can free people from snares passively thanks to Earthbind totem while focusing on attacking. These are a few examples, there are others.

I will say it again: Ret paladins have their uses. An arms warrior/Retadin/resto druid cleave team is one place where they can shine, but in that sort of comp their role is first-and-foremost to lay down huge upfront burst on the warrior's target in the first 15 seconds of the fight, rather than standing there dispelling/autoattacking. Their utility becomes central to the team's survival only if the initial burst fails, and to be quite honest, a Cleave team's entire methodology is reliant on the initial burst not failing. A lot of people say that if you can survive the first 30 seconds of combat against a melee cleave, you've won the match.

I want to stress again, you are not wrong with what you're saying Ceara. You're absolutely right, Ret paladins have a lot of really fun, interesting and compelling tools. These tools just don't lend themselves toward the Arena PvP model, and for the next year at least, Arena is the only game in town if you're interested in serious PvP.

[Fornaw]

Fair enough. So they stunned your warrior, and are focusing your druid. You BOP the druid, and HoF the warrior. Congrats, you've contributed.

Oh wait, a holy paladin could have done all that just as well or better, while taking the druid's place and freeing up a DPS slot.

My point is that, yes, ret paladins are decent support in a group environment, but they are easily replaceable by other classes or specs that can do the same stuff but better.

Cleanse isn't that great, it's a defensive-only version of a priest's Dispel, and a priest can control the battle better than a ret paladin can (Hell, even lolshadowpriests have an MS effect). HoF can A) be dispelled and B) is on a (admittedly short) cooldown. BOP can realistically only be used once in a fight, and can be dispelled by any shaman/priest/mage.

It's like this: Ret paladins are great in battlegrounds. They're very, very poor performers in arenas. Representation numbers back up this claim. In Cataclysm, they will be relevant thanks to rated BGs. Cataclysm is at least a year away. I don't want to wait a year to enjoy PvPing with my main.

One comp has MotW and Cyclone the other doesn't a ret paladin is never going to be irreplaceable, but clearly rets bring something to a 3s team.

Cleanse is great, a destro lock or a ele shaman will always tell you all you need to do is cleanse the Flame Shock or Immolate to kill the burst, you can cleanse several forms of CC, and HoP is still very powerful. Ret paladins are a spec that doesn't suffer from slows and snares, unfortunately Knockbacks/Fears/Blinks are becoming the king of the ranged survival game, which makes it pretty obvious why warriors are doing better than Rets. I do think Rets need help being a bit more useful to a team. I would prefer it be defensive, but perhaps it's too late for that.

here's my thoughts on the much (by paladins) desired paladin interrupt. put it on a new major glyph that removes the speed restriction on judgment of justice in return for an interrupt with a 3 second school lock. with improved judgments, the cool down and school lock would be roughly comparable to shaman shocks (6 second cool down with 2 second school lock versus 8 second cool down with 3 second school lock).

whether or not this is the best way to implement such a mechanic into the class, like this method, it needs to be an option and not given base line across the board to all paladins. paladins have had numerous abilities tweaked and altered because, as a class, they have so very much versatility no matter the specific spec.

my justification for giving the trade off of an interrupt versus the speed limitations is that you have a very important choice to make; either have a better chance of keeping those who flee within your melee range, or the ability to break a cast. being able to have the best possible chance to staying in melee range and interrupt fairly frequently, in conjunction with all the paladin class has to offer already, would be a bit much.

I like this, it's pretty balanced, a very interesting idea.

[Athael]

You know what? I've got an idea.

A lot of people suggest changing Crusader Strike so that it has some additional proc/ability/buff/debuff based on what Seal you have active when you use it. How about, when you have Seal of Justice active, Crusader Strike inflicts a debuff on the target that reduces all magical healing and damage done by 25 or 50% for 4 seconds?

Balancing factors:
-It's only magical healing, so warriors could still enraged regen at full capacity.
-Short duration, which means kiting classes could effectively get far enough away to avoid it after its initial expiration.
-You'd have to have Seal of Justice active, which means gimping your damage. That forces you to choose between control and raw damage, introducing another element of choice.

Fun factors:
-Synergy with mortal strike? Arms warriors can already load up the 75% healing reduction on their own between MS and overpower, so it's not like Blizzard is averse to the heavy healing reductions.
-Encourages the challenging and fun mechanic of seal twisting.
-Actually encourages you to use Seal of Justice in PvP again (not used since the seal twisting days of 2.3 and 2.4). Right now, the seal is dramatically underused since the diminishing returns coupled with the high proc rate makes the target effectively immune to uncontrolled stuns after a few hits.
-Gives ret paladins a way to manage healers without giving them an actual interrupt, which a lot of people are opposed to (Then again, those same people would likely be just as opposed to this).

[Nikoll]

i have a better idea. Hand of interrupt. and make it so you can only use one hand spell per 10 seconds.

[talii]

perhaps you could call it 'talk to the hand' ... you know, or not.

hand of reckoning could work, but i stand by the idea of keeping any interrupt given to paladins, in their current state, as a selective option and not a base addition to the class.

it might seem awkward trying to work it into deep retribution tree and removing the taunt effect. also it may seem a bit clunky to essentially change the way the spell works entirely, whether done by talents or glyphs. additionally, as you suggested, this would mandate a shared cool down on hand spells.

it's a possible solution, but i personally don't think this is a way blizzard would go about adding such a mechanic.

[Nikoll]

i'd rather not lose my taunt. Shit hits the fan and i can taunt/shield wall. I'd rather they just do as i stated above. make it a hand spell and give all hands a CD.

[talii]

the problem with giving a new hand spell specifically with an interrupt to all paladins is their already versatile arsenal. that's the reason the class has had so many changes, nerfs etc since the birth of arenas. the fact is that paladins can do a lot of things, of course not all at once, nor exceptionally well in every spec. however, they can do many more things than a good number of other classes with abilities that are inherently part of the class, not the spec. giving them yet another utility will only exacerbate this problem further, because of what all paladins would be capable of doing if needed.

i know i'm repeating myself here, but i'd like my point to be quite clear. an interrupt given to paladins should be an optional choice as opposed to a bonus given to the class, be it either as talents to add the mechanic to a spell deep in a tree or through a glyph. the selection should (like many things in the game) be an important choice with it's own pros and cons.

everyone loves to have something extra for their favorite class. but remember if you're trying to balance things you can't always just add, there has to be give and take. in the case of giving a new hand that interrupts to all paladins, even with a shared hand cool down, it's just a straight up buff.

not every class needs to have identical mechanics either. unique aspects between classes is something that makes the game much more interesting and complex... albeit much harder to balance because of it. personally rather than an interrupt something more like an increased casting time and increased time between casts debuff might be more interesting and possibly fitting.

[Athael]

i have a better idea. Hand of interrupt. and make it so you can only use one hand spell per 10 seconds.

You want to make paladins the only class that has to choose between interrupting and locking themselves out of all of their utility for 10 seconds?

Are you crazy?

[Nikoll]

You want to make paladins the only class that has to choose between interrupting and locking themselves out of all of their utility for 10 seconds?

Are you crazy?

that is the only way we will ever get an interrupt. We will have to give up something. its better than blizz's new favorite fuck you to paladin and locking us out of useing AW for 30 seconds.

I honestly think that doing that to hand spells would be a positive to us.

[Ronark]

that is the only way we will ever get an interrupt. We will have to give up something. its better than blizz's new favorite fuck you to paladin and locking us out of useing AW for 30 seconds.

I honestly think that doing that to hand spells would be a positive to us.

I still like my idea of HoJ going on a CD when the interrupt is on cooldown- That way you can't interrupt > stun for 6 seconds or vice versa.

[Nikoll]

I still like my idea of HoJ going on a CD when the interrupt is on cooldown- That way you can't interrupt > stun for 6 seconds or vice versa.

they'd probably do that too anyway =\

[Nikoll]

Last 3 or 4 patches, they were only taking from us. Now it is time to give something in return.

did you forget this is blizz and paladins we are talking about? =\

[talii]

I still like my idea of HoJ going on a CD when the interrupt is on cooldown- That way you can't interrupt > stun for 6 seconds or vice versa.

hadn't thought about that, could work, however i still don't think giving an interrupt to the entire class is the best solution considering the balancing ramifications. also if hand spells had a shared cool down, if you were interrupting a lot and there was an 'oh shit' moment, well you may not be able to utilize tools that could prevent things from going sour in either pvp or pve. guess it force you to analyze the situation and make an important choice.

rogues can has stunlock+spelllock. Hunters can chain cc+silence , so do dk's , mages, others.

for hunters and mages the silences come from talents, they're not a base part of the class. also it's been a while since i played on my dk but i don't recall being able to lock targets out of spells for excessive periods of time and consistently.

edit: minor changes

[Nikoll]

hadn't thought about that, could work, however i still don't think giving an interrupt to the entire class is the best solution considering the balancing ramifications. also if hand spells had a shared cool down, if you were interrupting a lot and there was an 'oh shit' moment, well you may not be able to utilize tools that could prevent things from going sour in either pvp or pve =\

for hunters and mages the silences come from talents, they're not a base part of the class.

...That is exactly my point when suggesting that. Blizzard wants things, especially for paladins, to be a choice. Not a given.

[Athael]

that is the only way we will ever get an interrupt. We will have to give up something. its better than blizz's new favorite fuck you to paladin and locking us out of useing AW for 30 seconds.

I honestly think that doing that to hand spells would be a positive to us.

There are a hundred ways to give us an interrupt while also making us sacrifice something else that are better than completely fucking us over by taking away our Hand spells. Some of them have already been suggested in this thread. I've suggested one way myself.

Giving up burst is fine. Giving up a little CC is fine. Giving up the ability to do any hand spell, when all four of them are integral in PvP (HoF is self explanatory, HoS is self explanatory, BoP is essential, glyphed HoSalv is incredible) goes beyond that. It is crippling. Most decent paladins would just end up ignoring their "interrupt," since what is the point of having an interrupt if it simultaneously interrupts YOU?

That's what the tooltip on the ability should read: Interrupts your target and yourself, preventing him from casting spells of that school for the next 4 seconds, and preventing you from casting anything useful for more than twice as long."

It's basically an I-WIN button for the other team. I can just hear them saying over vent, "Hey guys, that paladin just used his Hand interrupt, quick, stun and focus the healer. He can't unstun him, BoP him, take his damage or do anything. Free win, high five!"