HL vs FoL

[Craigadiddle]

also the answer is due to the fact that tank spike dmg is really higher than anything found in naxx or ulduar now. If i could relate any of it, its like patchwerk 25man with tanks in heroic blue gear sometimes.


ToC is fine with all healing spells. heroic "ToGC" is where the spamming returns and it continues well into ICC. Right now its just the nature of the games as paladins are the only healers capable enough to match the dmg bosses are causing to tanks right now as far as raw healing goes.

Therefore, the majority of holy pally players are obsessed with the notion of infinite mana pools and strive to have the most...which is a bit retarded since having so much int means you have no mp5 and that leaves you 100% depended on crits.

oh yeah, good example of what i mean: Festergut is a newly released boss who is a perfect test to see if your healers are pro and if your dps is worth keeping in the guild. During the fight he will start to rape the second tank (threat switch off) and it is 100% dependent on a paladin to heal it with HL spams until the 3rd spore spawns or its a wipe.

You say there is no mp5 when you gem all int, thats what replenishment is there for, giving 1% max mana per 5 seconds.
More mana you have, the more you regain, and when 5 classes can now bring it (spriest hunter ret lock and mage ) there is no reason to not have any sort of replenishment. With 40K mana raid buffed thats 400mp5, still quite a bit.

[Raiss]

I would say its more because HL builds overall will provide a lot more throughput and all it requires is more intelligent use of cooldowns. Divine plea early and often to keep the mana up but also use it when it might not be needed so when it is, you've got the mana to go through the rough patch.

I for one do not spam HL, I use HL mainly with fols thrown in as and when are needed, but using a HL pally over an FoL pally can mean the difference between dropping a tank healer for a raid healer, or dropping a healer altogether as i've yet to see a FoL paladin able to keep up with our two HL paladins. Not saying they don't exist as they might, but at my level of gear, killed anub hc pre 3.3, we're just not seeing the output.

Anub 25-man hard mode is one the only fights that Flash of Light can be far better than Holy Light. The reason is simple enough: if you have two high spellpower paladins with sacred shield on add tanks, they will reduce the bosshealing by a large amount. Glyph of Holy light is one of the main reasons for a Holy Light spam, and it can't be used to that fight also.

[Theholypally]

Before ICC FoL was just not strong enough to keep a tank up I.E impales on Gormok, etc.

I believe that with the large amounts of spellpower in ICC gear it could be viable to gem Pure SP and Bomb flashes which could help with large overhealing numbers but I have not looked into it extensively

Overhealing isnt important, keeping your assignments alive is.

[elcher]

i have PuGed my paladin up until saurfang, am pushing around 30k mana with BoK but have Solace of the Defeated and the Purified lunar dust for the bigger heals and MP5. now, in ICC healing is pretty much HL HL HL move HS HL HL HL melee melee melee melee HL HL HL. through more or lessusing divine plea and divine illumination keeps me at steady mana levels throughout the fight. now, you pretty much never ever EVER want to use FoL. it crits at 3,2k SP reaidbuffed for around 7k , 7,4 with the pvp libram, holy light, with a cast timeof around 0.3 seconds slower heals for 12k noncrit and 20k crit. if i am healing the tank (and i always am either through beacon or direkt healing..) there will always b the chance of him eating quite big hits and thus needing that 20k heal. the 7,4k (best case scenario) will either a) overheal or b) be a drop of water on a hot stone.

so.. socket int, as much as you can get and spam that holy light button like crazy!

[purusa]

it crits at 3,2k SP reaidbuffed for around 7k , 7,4 with the pvp libram, holy light, with a cast timeof around 0.3 seconds slower heals for 12k noncrit and 20k crit.

Well, you pair FoL (43%) with HS at a 38% crit rate (for me atm) if I HS for 8k, then instant FoL for say 6k, which applies a 12k HoT (with 4-T9 set bonus) over the next 12s, granted thats 14k healing which is only 2k above your bottom end HL and dependant on crits, the rather decent HoT helps out a fair bit, like in ICC: HoR, Marwyn who drops ~26k obliterates (mitigated by armor) I can handle with my FoL build, but it's not a regular hit. a FoL build can handle the occasional spike, but not something like Patchwerk where it is every hit. So fair enough, if your target is taking 20k hits often, then HL is the way to go, which is why I asked.

[purusa]

Ok, so looking towards a HL build, which I looked at some of yours, I don't get it, if theres a push for mp5, why not get improved wisdom? Or improved devotion aura? I figured it'd be good to go with something like this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sxA0g...dxGzmbh:IdwMcV

[Ryme]

FoL is easily strong enough for all normal mode content (unsure on ICC, but I expect the same).

Only down side is on 25 man, you may need more than person on the tank, whether this is an issue for your guild is for you to decide.

[Raiss]

Ok, so looking towards a HL build, which I looked at some of yours, I don't get it, if theres a push for mp5, why not get improved wisdom? Or improved devotion aura? I figured it'd be good to go with something like this:

http://www.wowhead.com/?talent#sxA0g...dxGzmbh:IdwMcV

Shamans can spec for improved mana totem. Druids and prot paladins can spec for +6% healing. Why should you wase talents too?

[purusa]

Shamans can spec for improved mana totem. Druids and prot paladins can spec for +6% healing. Why should you wase talents too?

Fair enough, I wasn't suggesting you were wrong in your speccing, just was curious as to why.

I just think that relying on other specific classes to be present (which granted, are most likely to be there in raid situations) in order to make up some "important" talents is one thing but in place of the other talents available? Maybe "Pure of Heart" or "Purifying Power" (depending on the cleansing requirements in ICC) but like I don't understand the "Improved Righteous Fury." I mean I've new to the HL build and unfamiliar with aggro output as such, but in any case, is 3% damage reduction that big of a deal? Chances are most of the damage you recieve (and live through) will be spell based, and in ICC i'm assuming to be Frost / Shadow, which we have aura's for, which is a half decent reduction. Aura mastery unless needed in ICC for anything specific is kind of a redundancy. As for "Benediction" I was under the impression that as HL, you stay with HL and the occasional HS, I know you still have Beacon, and SS but I mean your shooting for a bottomless mana reserve anyways, so what good is 6%?

If your in a scheduled raid group and know those classes are coming every week, by all means those talent points are "wasted" but as a more casual player, who will pug the occasional 10man and maybe get in on the rare 25, I think I'm better off being a self reliant healer.

[Ryme]

Thing is, if you want to get 2/2 in Divine Guardian (which you really really should), your choices are:

6% reduction damage + 2% armour and 6% reduction to slow effects

or

8% armour and 24% reduction to slow effects.

Unless you want to do some very terrible and put them in strength or dodge talents.

Also, this is the spec I use *(bear in mind I ALWAYS have either a healing tree or prot paladin in the raid) 51/17/3

[Riek]

Thing is, if you want to get 2/2 in Divine Guardian (which you really really should), you're choices are:

6% reduction damage + 2% armour and 6% reduction to slow effects

or

8% armour and 24% reduction to slow effects.

Unless you want to do some very terrible and put them in strength or dodge talents.

Also, this is the spec I use *(bear in mind I ALWAYS have either a healing tree or prot paladin in the raid) 51/17/3

Why don't you spend the last 3 pts into holy tree for improved Conc aura or improved wisdom?

[Riek]

There was other healers and usually another pally on the tanks as well so like im saying in my experiences what i'm doing is sufficient. I think I've discovered from other posters that HL is not really an alternative, but in going into ICC is required.

Just be prepared to use both HL and FoL. Learn when to mix Shock + FoL combo in between HL spams, I found learning which target to beacon can significantly change your healing as well.

[Kalinga]

A good FoL paladin is very good to have in a raid. With the 4 t9 it's quite an awesome build if gemmed/enchanted for. We've used a combination of 1 HL paladin and one FoL paladin in 25s and I think that is where it shines. In conjunction with eachother the FoL and HL paladin works wonders.

Also I think that FoL build is somewhat designed for 10mans where you might lack a proper raid healer. FoL paladins are better at beacon+raidheal than a HL paladin. Also you might lack replenishment in 10s and when you lack replenishment it's gonna be tough on HL paladins mana.

[Raiss]

Fair enough, I wasn't suggesting you were wrong in your speccing, just was curious as to why.

I just think that relying on other specific classes to be present (which granted, are most likely to be there in raid situations) in order to make up some "important" talents is one thing but in place of the other talents available? Maybe "Pure of Heart" or "Purifying Power" (depending on the cleansing requirements in ICC) but like I don't understand the "Improved Righteous Fury." I mean I've new to the HL build and unfamiliar with aggro output as such, but in any case, is 3% damage reduction that big of a deal? Chances are most of the damage you recieve (and live through) will be spell based, and in ICC i'm assuming to be Frost / Shadow, which we have aura's for, which is a half decent reduction. Aura mastery unless needed in ICC for anything specific is kind of a redundancy. As for "Benediction" I was under the impression that as HL, you stay with HL and the occasional HS, I know you still have Beacon, and SS but I mean your shooting for a bottomless mana reserve anyways, so what good is 6%?

If your in a scheduled raid group and know those classes are coming every week, by all means those talent points are "wasted" but as a more casual player, who will pug the occasional 10man and maybe get in on the rare 25, I think I'm better off being a self reliant healer.

First: You need to waste talents on the prot spec for Divine Guardian. This is a fact. You can choose on the tier one betwen +%healing and +%str, that is easy. On tier two, Guardian's Favor is a easy choice, while +%dodge and -stun/dispells can both be usefull, but not game breaking for pve at all. On tier 3, you will surely get Dsac, but you still need to waste some talents on improved RF (-6% dmg) or armor/snare. RF is proved to me far more usefull for dmg reduction, and, if you have decent tanks, you should not have agro issues.

Now for holy talents:

Pure of Heart: This talent is useless if there is anyone that can dispell magic/poisons/curses. If you are in a raid group, you should have it. Even if you are playing arenas, if you have a mage, druid (caster/resto) or resto shaman, you should never talent this.

Purifying power: Are you serious? This is the worst talent on the holy spec. I mean, spamming cleasing can get pretty mana expensive at a arena (low mana pool, lots of dispells), but its a waste afterall.

Sacred Cleanse: Now THIS is a cool talent. I mean, most of people would think its useless, its based on RNG of RNG. But its amazing. If you are fighting a frost mage, you can always be sure that you can keep sacred cleanse up, and it will give you a 30% resist for all his spells. I can imagine this showing to be useful in fights like heroic deathwhisper.

Blessed life: Useless, period.

Improved conc aura: Broken talent. It might work, it might not work. Maybe if blizzard fix it I might give it a try. Some Arcane mages love this talent, since it can increase arcane missels dmg if they are getting hit.

Improved Wisdom: Ask a shaman.

[Ryme]

Why don't you spend the last 3 pts into holy tree for improved Conc aura or improved wisdom?

Because I don't need them. My other paladin healing buddy brings the imp. Conc aura and we have a shammy for the mana (non)issue.

[Blartt]

A good FoL paladin is very good to have in a raid. With the 4 t9 it's quite an awesome build if gemmed/enchanted for. We've used a combination of 1 HL paladin and one FoL paladin in 25s and I think that is where it shines. In conjunction with eachother the FoL and HL paladin works wonders.

Also I think that FoL build is somewhat designed for 10mans where you might lack a proper raid healer. FoL paladins are better at beacon+raidheal than a HL paladin. Also you might lack replenishment in 10s and when you lack replenishment it's gonna be tough on HL paladins mana.

Tier 9 is going to be replaced very quickly just by joining a guild and Paladins are mostly thought to be Main Tank healers and for healing main tanks the large heals are necessary and if you are going to stack sp and use FoL just roll priest? Paladins are able to reach that amount of mana with many mana mitigation abilities and spells for a reason. Also FoL paladins are in no way better at raid healing than HL Paladins. When you can show me proof of this then I will revoke my statement but from what I have seen in pugs and raids, the FoL paladins may not struggle with mana( which no HL Paladin should either ) the FoL paladins are always low on the healing meters and struggle to even compete with other healers.

[Noxina]

I'm a healadin in a 10man raid, what should I go for, FL or HoL Spamming?
We're working our ass trough ICC10 atm, and ToGC10.

I've been doing fine as FL spamming so far, but havent tried any of the new ICC bosses, will I have problems healing there?

I'm usualy on raid + beacon on one tank

Thanks

[Dantrag]

@Nonslid
go HL. if the fight will be easy, you can still use FoL. if the fight will be hard, you will use HL.

but if you will be FoL'er and fight will be hard enough to FoL... your raid will die. i think this will be FoL'ers destiny in pre-last wing of ICC10, LK10 and all the hard modes.

[purusa]

Purifying power: Are you serious? This is the worst talent on the holy spec. I mean, spamming cleasing can get pretty mana expensive at a arena (low mana pool, lots of dispells), but its a waste afterall.

Like I said, haven't been into ICC10/25 at all, so was unsure of cleansing expectations. I guess RF > Toughness so fair enough, if you look at the spec I laid out, i don't really see to much appeal in the other talents in the holy tree, anyways thank you for your input.

Also FoL paladins are in no way better at raid healing than HL Paladins.

FoL paladins are better at raid healing because they use their HS and FoL often which can lead to two instant heals where a 15k HL is not needed. If your there as a HL pally chances are your on the tanks, and don't really have a place to be raid healing, you could/should be assisting if mana and time alllows. I'm aware of the fact that a HL paladin can still cast HS/FoL but not boasting a 40%+ crit which leads to more instant spells, along with the likelyhood that the FoL pally is sporting 5 points in Benediction.

[Simca]

FoL paladins are better at raid healing because they use their HS and FoL often which can lead to two instant heals where a 15k HL is not needed. If your there as a HL pally chances are your on the tanks, and don't really have a place to be raid healing, you could/should be assisting if mana and time alllows. I'm aware of the fact that a HL paladin can still cast HS/FoL but not boasting a 40%+ crit which leads to more instant spells, along with the likelyhood that the FoL pally is sporting 5 points in Benediction.

Not even close to being true. The whole FoL > HL for raid healing is a nasty rumor that won't go away.

Holy Shock triggers a 1.0 second GCD whereas my Holy Light cast takes 1.2 seconds. Flash of Light is capped by the 1.0 second GCD (even if it is instant) as well whereas my Holy Light takes 1.2 seconds. As long as my Holy Light heals for 20% more than your Holy Shock or Flash of Light, and your flash of light and holy shock do not heal the target to full (probably won't in ICC25), then Holy Light is better.

This is not factoring in the Glyph of Holy Light which is a huge factor as well on a lot of fights.