[Bear] Dropping Primal Precision?

[Bigslick]

With a couple of new upgrades, I'm now over the expertise soft cap (26) by a loooong ways, sitting at 43. I know there's nothing 'wrong' with that, and that in fact it is good for my threat by continuing to reduce parries, but got to thinking...

Here is my character and current build. If I pulled two points out of Primal Precision, I'd still be at 33 expertise. Even when I upgrade my cloak to the badge cloak, I'll be at 28. If I pull a few points from other places, I can easily make room to pick up Master Shapeshifter. I know I could do that now by dropping Imp. Mangle, but figure that if I'm able to keep it alongside MSS I should be able to deliver even more threat / dps.

The build I'm considering is this one. I lose Shredding Attacks and 1 point from Imp. Mangle, but don't think that will hurt me too badly. Any suggestions on other ways I might better redistribute points to better generate threat / damage (not that it's any big issue now), if pulling points from those talents will hurt me more than I expect, or if this is just a bad idea and I should just enjoy the extra expertise?

This toon is currently running 10-man ICC content as MT, with the realistic expectation to push into 10-man heroic shortly, and would not be concerned at all about being able to shift to kitty dps in this spec. Just want to maximize my viability for it.

Thanks in advance!

[failoth]

do you really need infected wounds? a DK, warrior or paladin can supply the same debuff. i would take points out of infected wounds first, personally

[Isadora985]

Exp soft cap for tanking is 36 (26 if you are including your talents), you would go below the soft cap if you took the talents out. Now, that is only the soft cap, having more than normal exp isn't a bad thing for any class as it helps push parries off the table (you need some redic high amount of exp to hit the hard cap, which really isn't a set amount). And as failoth stated, you can drop infected wounds if you have another tank that supplies the same debuff. The only problem is for fights like putricide or rotface where your OT isn't in the fight for 2/3 of the fight thus not supplying that debuff.

[Sinma]

Exp soft cap for tanking is 36 (26 if you are including your talents)

o.O???
Sorry to say Isadora, you're just wrong.. The "softcap" for expertise is 26, whether you're tanking or dpsing. It takes out bosses chance to dodge. And the parry cap would then be 52. And that 26 includes Primal Precision, so you need 16 from gear.

And for dropping PP, not really sure. It might be a good idea, but I'm not dropping it before getting 4xT10, when I need to change the spec completely anyway

[Bigslick]

Exp soft cap for tanking is 36 (26 if you are including your talents), you would go below the soft cap if you took the talents out. Now, that is only the soft cap, having more than normal exp isn't a bad thing for any class as it helps push parries off the table (you need some redic high amount of exp to hit the hard cap, which really isn't a set amount).

According to Wowwiki the soft cap is 26, not 36:

For boss-level mobs (which are calculated as your level + 3) the soft cap is 6.5% dodge or 26 expertise (214 expertise rating), and the hard cap is 14% parry or 56 expertise (460 expertise rating)

But hadn't thought about pulling points from infected wounds - looks like a much more sound idea, thanks! We have a DK and ret pally consistently among our dps, so I gather from what you're saying that debuff will be up anyway?

@Sinma - yeah, just picked up 4pc today, and with the expertise from tier legs, sack chest, and crafted legs I'm over soft cap and not foreseeing any replacements for those for quite a while. Also not concerning myself with picking up KotJ as I see Enrage as more of a CD reserved for defensive needs.

[failoth]

it should always be up from the DK. i think for the paladin it has to be a tank judging to supply it. not entirely sure. dps DK will always put it up though.

[Nithara]

It's worth to note that the standard DK attackspeed debuff isn't as good as infected wounds though. If you've a frost DK or a tank DK in general, they'll be as good.

Icy touch reduces attackspeed by 14%. Specced for it it'll reduces attackspeed by 20%.

A protection warrior will always have improved thunderclap (reduces attackspeed by 20%). A fury warrior will never have improved, some arms warriors do have it. Non-improved gives you a 10% attackspeed reduction.

A protection paladin will have the 20% attackspeed reduction.

So, if you're always tanking with another tank that has the full atackspeed reduction, it can be a good idea to drop infected wounds. If not though, I wouldn't concider it. If you're ever solo-tanking a boss when the other tank is busy tanking adds and you don't have infected wounds OR a frost dk/incite-specced arms warrior staying on the boss to dps, you'll gimp your survivability quite alot. It's also worth thinking about that an arms warrior who needs to apply the debuff is gimping their dps, frost dk's obviously does it automatically.

[Kiada]

We have a DK and ret pally consistently among our dps, so I gather from what you're saying that debuff will be up anyway?

I'd only rely on Icy Touch being applied by a DK. This only acconts for 14% attack speed reduction though, because DPS Specs usually don't talent the increased effect.

[frester]

drop imp mangle imo, it's not that good to justify 3points in it.
and don't drop infected wounds as this is -20% of damage you get quite often there is no chance to get it from somebody else (think all fights with adds... which is quite a lot).

only thing that imp mangle is useful for is if you go cat sometimes (saurfang, fester)

and shredding attacks are useless as tank, ooc is mediocre but more useful than shredding attacks

[Tranzzform]

26 expertise is the dodge cap anything over reduces parry up to somewhere about 60 expertise. primal precision is one of your highest threat talents in your tree and well worth the 2 points getting.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...0k9,OwN,11403; is the spec I am running with in my current 4pct10 set up.

Infected wounds is a toss up talent. It is entirely dependent on if you have another class in the raid that can provided it and the spec that they are. Prot paladins should always have it as it is 2 pts to other tanks 3 and in a place that is very easy to get. DK's should have it most times, and warriors are in a same boat as us. they can get it but sacrifice somewhere else. I argue that druids have the fewest 'Flex' points and should only get IW as a last resort.

[Ghost-Flight]

I would always keep it, It ups your threat and saves you from the bosses that parry haste.

[Glittersmith]

26 expertise is the dodge cap anything over reduces parry up to somewhere about 60 expertise. primal precision is one of your highest threat talents in your tree and well worth the 2 points getting.

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...0k9,OwN,11403; is the spec I am running with in my current 4pct10 set up.

Infected wounds is a toss up talent. It is entirely dependent on if you have another class in the raid that can provided it and the spec that they are. Prot paladins should always have it as it is 2 pts to other tanks 3 and in a place that is very easy to get. DK's should have it most times, and warriors are in a same boat as us. they can get it but sacrifice somewhere else. I argue that druids have the fewest 'Flex' points and should only get IW as a last resort.

Actually improved thunder clap is pretty much a mandatory talent for protection warriors.

[Zreo]

dude, never drop your primal precision.. NEVER. u need to "try" to archieve 56 expertice and get parry capped. u need to forget about omen.. omen sucks for feral tanks.. same with your lacerate reduce rage talent there.. such a waste. go for infected wounds or king of the jungle(this is getting viable cause of your 4set) and also forget about improved leader of the pack.

Go for the ring from rotface 25man.. the ring of many mouths, its an agi ring with expertice and a okay amount of stamina.. its awesome.
get a new neck.
getting growl glyph insted of frenzy is a must in ICC 25man tanking

[getefix]

With a couple of new upgrades, I'm now over the expertise soft cap (26) by a loooong ways, sitting at 43. I know there's nothing 'wrong' with that, and that in fact it is good for my threat by continuing to reduce parries, but got to thinking...

Here is my character and current build. If I pulled two points out of Primal Precision, I'd still be at 33 expertise. Even when I upgrade my cloak to the badge cloak, I'll be at 28. If I pull a few points from other places, I can easily make room to pick up Master Shapeshifter. I know I could do that now by dropping Imp. Mangle, but figure that if I'm able to keep it alongside MSS I should be able to deliver even more threat / dps.

The build I'm considering is this one. I lose Shredding Attacks and 1 point from Imp. Mangle, but don't think that will hurt me too badly. Any suggestions on other ways I might better redistribute points to better generate threat / damage (not that it's any big issue now), if pulling points from those talents will hurt me more than I expect, or if this is just a bad idea and I should just enjoy the extra expertise?

This toon is currently running 10-man ICC content as MT, with the realistic expectation to push into 10-man heroic shortly, and would not be concerned at all about being able to shift to kitty dps in this spec. Just want to maximize my viability for it.

Thanks in advance!

Bear global cooldowns are 1.5 seconds long. Imp mangle reduces the cooldown on Mangle by 0.5 seconds. If you're using an ability at every single GCD (which you should be) then you're going to be able to use an ability at 0 seconds, 1.5 seconds, 3 seconds, 4.5 seconds, and 6 seconds. If you only take 2/3 Imp Mangle then the cooldown of your Mangle won't line up with with your GCDs. If you manage to FFF in your rotation then you can take advantage of 2/3 Imp Mangle as FFF has a 1 second GCD, but it also has a 6 second cooldown so you won't be able to use it every rotation.

Basically it's just way too ass complicated to take 2/3 Imp Mangle. Sometimes you won't be able to make use of those 2 talents, sometimes you will. It's better to max it out or go to a MSS build.

P.S. As a discouraging tip, Feral talent trees haven't changed (aside from PI) for quite a while now so any viable builds have been introduced, weighed and either widely adopted or thrown out. If you have fancy ideas for a new clever build, it's probably not going to work.

[bavarcarus]

IMO it's never a good idea to drop infected wounds. There aren't always 2 tanks on a target, like putricide or rotface.

Drop imp mangle if your threat is fine.

Also I would not drop primal precision, I try to stay around 40 expertise as a bear to hit a happy medium and not get parried that often.

[Turtlezorg]

All i saw was Bear Dropping.

[shagrarz]

with this spec:

http://talent.mmo-champion.com/?drui...0k9,OwN,11403; is the spec I am running with in my current 4pct10 set up.

i'd say drop the points in master shapeshifter and natural shapeshifter and go 5/5 feral aggression....unless you really need that additional 4% physical damage for threat...but threat isn't something that bear's generally struggle with...

[Auroro]

with this spec:

i'd say drop the points in master shapeshifter and natural shapeshifter and go 5/5 feral aggression....unless you really need that additional 4% physical damage for threat...but threat isn't something that bear's generally struggle with...

Umm, Bear does struggle with threat at the begining of the fight.

Rest of the time we do not have any problem with threat.

[Zreo]

wtf is wrong with u bears.. why u want omen??? why u want improved leader of the pack.. like wtf

[maladorian]

wtf is wrong with u bears.. why u want omen??? why u want improved leader of the pack.. like wtf

wtf is wrong with you? free cost attacks? healing on crits...

damn dare i make my job a little easier???? somehow ive got money on your being a pally tank or a stupid dps that assumes because were running in we have 20k threat from our big bad teeth...