Assassination: "Blood and Venom", or "Just Venom"?

[Omedon]

Hey all!

Long time rogue lover, recent re-leveler, like, as in last time I played a rogue, we made our poisons.

I'm loving re-leveling a rogue now, and despite the sound arguments that assassination isn't a way to level, I've always been opposed to unlearning and relearning at 80, I'd rather get accustomed to my toolbox so it's second nature right away at 80.

Anyhoo, speaking of learning the feel of the build on the way up, I currently (lvl 33) have two points in blood spatter, keep rupture up on my targets, and have garotte glyphed, because I love the "Melee affliction warlock" feel of assassination. I've read in a few places that even though HFB synergizes with our bleed effects, we actually look for others to supply said bleeds, and focus only on poisons as assassination rogues, due to the obvious benefits to envenom and mutilate.

My question is, how much am I deluding myself to love the "blood and venom" feel of the assassination build? Do we really stop making people bleed ourselves unless we absolutely have to at 80?

Keep in mind, I have no intention to raid with this rogue, and practically live in 5-mans, my favourite type of content.

All constructive replies appreciated!

Thank you for reading!

Edited to add that I do indeed use and enjoy using rupture.

[Trillivm]

according to Blizz, you'll have pretty many spare talent points even in cookie-cutter build.
you'll be free to make a build with whatever flavour you may wish, IMO, be it "Blood and Venom" or "Waffle and Pancake"

[Omedon]

according to Blizz, you'll have pretty many spare talent points even in cookie-cutter build.
you'll be free to make a build with whatever flavour you may wish, IMO, be it "Blood and Venom" or "Waffle and Pancake"

Well ya, in cataclysm, but I plan to be 80 and heroic'ing with my friends long before that.

[Physicsguy]

The only real reason rogues focus on poisons/haste at 80 is because of the additional effect Deadly Poison IX has. IMO, high-rupture upkeep will be better dps lvling, envenoming when you can and making sure SnD doesn't drop of course. Once you get Mutilate at 40, should see a good improvement in your dps as well.

At 80, focus on an envenom-only build will provide the best dps, but if you only plan to run heroics with your friends on your rogue, then I say do what feels the most comfortable.

[Trillivm]

Well ya, in cataclysm, but I plan to be 80 and heroic'ing with my friends long before that.

ah, right, didn't catch up it wasn't about Cata.

people seem to talk only about Cata these days =)

[Omedon]

The only real reason rogues focus on poisons/haste at 80 is because of the additional effect Deadly Poison IX has. IMO, high-rupture upkeep will be better dps lvling, envenoming when you can and making sure SnD doesn't drop of course. Once you get Mutilate at 40, should see a good improvement in your dps as well.

At 80, focus on an envenom-only build will provide the best dps, but if you only plan to run heroics with your friends on your rogue, then I say do what feels the most comfortable.

That all makes great sense, thanks!

I just saw the newly crit-happy rupture as yet another scaling point with the crit we will invariably get even while stacking haste.

Poison is by far my favourite aspect of the rogue (hence the mutilate/envenom build goal), but critting DoTs are one of my favourite aspects of WoW. My rogue is a "spidery" concept (RP server ) so poisons FTW, but blood fits in there too.

I'm guessing that, 80wise, garotte provides the blood we need for HFB, and we go to town, rupturing as needed for HFB uptime.

Thanks for the input

[Magnett]

My question is, how much am I deluding myself to love the "blood and venom" feel of the assassination build?

A little bit. Blizzard made Assassination focus mostly on poisons, and definitely not on the DoT side. The tree that focuses the most on bleeds (if not the only that cares about bleeds at all since Assassination usually relies on classes that actually use bleeds to increase their DPS) is Sub, which is frankly subpar with very few exceptions.

That said, you can level in whatever way you wish, but at 80 it may not work out the way you expect it to. You also said you mostly did 5-mans, where (Rogue) bleeds are for the most part useless and Assassination actually feels really awkward since mobs die so fast.

[Longview]

If you're attacking mobs that won't live longer than 16 sec (level 62+, when you've got envenom and mutilate), you shouldn't rupture. Envenom is far more efficient. In heroics you'll be a lot better of just envenoming.

However, in instances, rupture isn't THAT bad if your target outlives a full duration 5 cp rupture (bosses). You should really run with what you feel comfortable with (seeing how you're not interested in raiding). In heroics, things will die regardless of the extra damage you will deal when ignoring rupture

[Omedon]

A little bit. Blizzard made Assassination focus mostly on poisons, and definitely not on the DoT side. The tree that focuses the most on bleeds (if not the only that cares about bleeds at all since Assassination usually relies on classes that actually use bleeds to increase their DPS) is Sub, which is frankly subpar with very few exceptions.

That said, you can level in whatever way you wish, but at 80 it may not work out the way you expect it to. You also said you mostly did 5-mans, where (Rogue) bleeds are for the most part useless and Assassination actually feels really awkward since mobs die so fast.

Ya I realize I wont get my full on ramp-up in most trash pulls in 5-man content, but I still love the poison feel. I have equal love for instant and deadly, especially now that deadly fires instant at 5 stacks (saw that yesterday and just about creamed my jeans!).

[Magnett]

Ya I realize I wont get my full on ramp-up in most trash pulls in 5-man content, but I still love the poison feel. I have equal love for instant and deadly, especially now that deadly fires instant at 5 stacks (saw that yesterday and just about creamed my jeans!).

DPS really doesn't matter at all in most 5-mans so playing what you like the most is fine, but realise that you'll very rarely even get to hit 5 stacks.

I much prefer focusing on poisons in PvP since there it's not just another form of dealing damage and you're actually affecting the opponent's performance (that and it's the only decent PvP Rogue spec anyway, screw Sub). I've always liked Combat better in PvE for the opportunistic brute feel though.

[ProphetFlume]

Mut is masochism if you're only interested in 5 mans, things will be dead before your garrote can run out and you'd have done more damage doing fok a few times. If you really want to obliterate heroics combat would be the way to go, blade flurry and adrenaline rush work great with fok (which WILL be what you do most in 5 mans) plus killing spree glyphed is up nearly every pull. Either way rupture is thoroughly wasted in 5 mans (and in general), even for bosses.

Having reread your post i guess my mind just zoomed to 80, but even for leveling I'd suggest combat, mut is made for single targets and is slowed down so much by the higher cost of mut that switching targets is a pain.

[Omedon]

Mut is masochism if you're only interested in 5 mans, things will be dead before your garrote can run out and you'd have done more damage doing fok a few times. If you really want to obliterate heroics combat would be the way to go, blade flurry and adrenaline rush work great with fok (which WILL be what you do most in 5 mans) plus killing spree glyphed is up nearly every pull. Either way rupture is thoroughly wasted in 5 mans (and in general), even for bosses.

Having reread your post i guess my mind just zoomed to 80, but even for leveling I'd suggest combat, mut is made for single targets and is slowed down so much by the higher cost of mut that switching targets is a pain.

Thanks for the input!

My theory on the combat vs mut for 5-man content is "don't spec for trash". As others here infer, on trash it won't really matter what my spec is, FOK FTW. While MOST 5-man bosses don't live an entire minute, it is for them I spec, so the single target focus of mutilate spec is fine by me.

[Deleted]

for now, damage doesnt matter THAT much, simply play what you like.
i prefer hemo rogue for leveling(only 21 pts for hemo, others elsewhere) because bleeding them to death simply takes too much time but well, as long as you reach 80 before you are bored from playing its fine i guess.

at 80 simply glyph fan of knives and use it on all 3+ mob groups, no matter what spec you have^^
but for damage purposes poisons will do the job as they enable you to use envenom.
in 5mans assassination isnt the best build imo because mobs die way too fast to build up your rotation and such, so bleeds wont be that helpful and poisons will do their job mainly on bosses or rarely on mobs in the newer heroics.


oh and because i read it: ABSOLUTELY(!) spec for trash! if you kill trash in seconds, you can finish the instance way faster than elseway. everything else mainly matters in raids only

[Omedon]

oh and because i read it: ABSOLUTELY(!) spec for trash! if you kill trash in seconds, you can finish the instance way faster than elseway. everything else mainly matters in raids only

Unless you enjoy the 5-man content... as I said above... and are not concerned about "GOGOGO'ing" in and out, skipping bosses, and getting the frost so you can return to raiding, which I don't do (raid, that is).

[Xavier10101]

or "Waffle and Pancake"

Waffle is clearly superior.

[Annoying]

IMO, high-rupture upkeep will be better dps lvling, envenoming when you can and making sure SnD doesn't drop of course. Once you get Mutilate at 40, should see a good improvement in your dps as well.

I completely disagree. Rupture has a 6s (unglyphed, 10s w/ glyph) duration. Deadly poison has a 12s duration, and takes a bit to stack up to 5 stacks. Envenom and Rupture are terrible for anything that lives for less than 10s+the time it takes to apply each (i.e. every mob you kill while leveling...)
If you're leveling as assn, and wish to keep with it, I'd recommend IP/WP, using Evisc as a finisher.

[Omedon]

If you're leveling as assn, and wish to keep with it, I'd recommend IP/WP, using Evisc as a finisher.

Wow, I never even thought of that. Mut is binary, (meaning stacks don't mean anything, unlike envenom) and WP applies "Something" and does damage. That's genius, thank you! I'll just sub in Envemon in the place of eviscerate when I start heroic'ing

[Omedon]

Just a follow up on this topic, I'd like to thank the above posters for their input, I've spec'ed out of blood spatter and am dual wielding instant poison for the time being, until I get mutilate. Things are going a lot faster since I've abandoned rupture just to focus on bursting targets down.... but I still can't wait till deady poison and envenom get used on bosses down the road!

Thanks again!

[Amgyn]

good to hear!

rogues are very tricky.. the naiive people think you can just spec whatever and do dps... which in a simple way is true...

but PvE solo, PvE group, PvE raid, PvP solo/world, PvP bg, PvP arena all required different specs and styles of play...

Thats why im currently loving my rogue.

[darkriver41]

Assassination isn't supposed to be an "affliction"esque tree, it's just become that way because the devs don't really care now that Cataclysm beta is starting soon. It is supposed to be the "destruction" tree for a rogue.

I'll refrain from plugging my ideas here despite how easy it would be, lol.