Howling Blast Revamp

[Totle]

If you think about it:

Blood Frost Unholy

Rune "strike" Death Strike Obliterate Scourge Strike
RP ability DRW Hungering Cold Gargoyle
Back up? Heart Strike Howling Blast Obliterate?

Before you say that Frost Strike is Frost's RP ability (I'll get to this later), think back to 3.0 - what was at the bottom of the tree? My point is that the Frost runic power ability is kind of a wash out with only pvp utility (since who cares about trash and bosses resist it).

We do, however have a powerful, comparable ability as far as ass-kicking in the form of Howling Blast. Unfortunately this also uses up runes we'd otherwise use for our main strike - something the other trees don't have to deal with. Consequently, we're forced to rely on a 3/20 chance that we'll get to use this ability (because if you're dealing with a boss, obviously the runes should be centered towards Obliterate)

Runic Power: Let's consider the frost tree for a moment - with talents like Runic Power mastery and the other one that increases RP generated from spells, clearly our tree is about gathering and utilizing RP... so why don't we have something more interesting than a single target poke? (Cuz let's face it, Frost Strike used to do way more damage before).

Proposal: Make Howling Blast cost 70 RP, change it's CD to 30 sec. and let it's damage be the as it is now, but increased by 5% for each disease and for every 10 additional runic power. Fully loaded, it would hit for 140%. For me in full T9 and some ICC loot, it crits for about 8.5k => fully loaded, it would hit for 11 - 12k. Considering the numbers that scourge strike and rune strike were dishing out (and considering that it's not modified by ToT), this is equitable. And it would allow you to utilize one of the amazing abilities in the frost tree.

Frost strike:
Frost strike is another poke that's there for you to do something when your runes are on cool-down, but more often than not, your RP is just sitting there. It's not like Blood where it at least contributes by upping the damage of your Death Strike.

For the people complaining about how they need Frost strike to fill the gap, this would be mitigated by altering Frost strike. Rework the spell such that it replaces Obliterate (in ability and in cost) just as Heart Strike replaced Blood Strike. Let it be buffed by stored Runic Power to encourage saving up for that big blast. Frost loses the ranged versatility of Death Coil because it uses its RP for another ability - bring it back! IT and HB can't hit as far as DC can, so why not give frost DKs a way to properly use our one real ranged ability?

Thoughts?

[Pureanimosity7]

I like your idea of making Howling Blast, use runic power on a cooldown like that. My only complaint with your idea is the fact of replacing obliterate with frost strike. Seems like they would have to rework a lot of stuff for that to even work. Referring to stuff in the tree and even stuff like your rune enchants. I'll go back to your HB thing though, its kind of sad that the only time we use it is when we have a Rime proc, for such a cool move, it should be in our "rotation" of abilities to use. Good idea though overall!!

[Totle]

Thanks, I appreciate the positive feedback.

Looking at it now, I do seem to advocate for replacing Obliterate with Frost Strike, but they are essentially the same thing. It's just that you spam one when your runes are on cool down and you spam the other when your runes are up. To point out, I didn't say that you spam Obliterate when your RP is low, because it doesn't matter. Obliterate is chosen over Frost Strike and your RP sits there idle while we wait for the runes to be used up. This is problematic when we have a priority system as opposed to a rotation because your RP is essentially going to waste when it's constantly being topped off.

New Howling Blast would mitigate this problem.

(originally I was going to suggest removing Frost Strike altogether, but I was afraid of the QQ backlash that might ensue.)

[Pureanimosity7]

lol yea thats understandable about the QQ. One thing I would have to say about the frost strike thing is that it does gives us something to do while we are waiting to put our obliterates up. If they made it a debuff after your used say like unholy blight or maybe additional frost vulnerability along with your razor ice. that would make it more of a priority or atleast more important than spamming it once you are waiting for your runes to come off CD. I honestly think though that they are not going to change to much with frost. Would just like HB to be more intricate part of our combat. Maybe even make HB replace OB like it was before it was a Duel Wielding tree. That might solve some problems.

[Dargin]

Your table is incorrect and poorly thought out. Please understand the basic points of the class before making threads trying to revamp a class you don't know how to play

[Zidius]

if you replace Obliterate with Frost Strike what spec will use Obliterate? Heart Strike replacing Blood strike sure but the other two specs will still use Blood Strike whereas neither of the other two will have Oblit in their normal rotation

[Fonill]

I love the frost ability's, the only thing i could really ask for is pest going to an RP ability and more rime procs.

[vvr]

If you think about it:

Blood Frost Unholy

Rune "strike" Death Strike Obliterate Scourge Strike
RP ability DRW Hungering Cold Gargoyle
Back up? Heart Strike Howling Blast Obliterate?

more like

Blood Frost Unholy
Frost-Uholy (FU) death strike obliterate scourge strike
aditional strike heart strike blood strike blood strike
runic power dump death coil (low dmg) frost strike death coil (high dmg)
CD DRW-hysteria U. armor gargoyle


howling blast just doesnt fit anywhere, and it is really dumb to have a talented spell that is only worth using when another talent makes it free cost, i really feel howling blast needs a change. blizzard is happy some classes having abilities that are just for lvling and that are replaced later at high lvl, they should make obliterate the lvling strike and howling blast the core FU spell for frost, and may be change rime to make obliterate free cost. im not sure thats a good change, or if that makes sense but, no other talent requires aditional talents to be worth of use

[Pureanimosity7]

like I said, frost during Naxx times where pretty beastly. if they applied that sort of spec and the original HB, it will be the main attack you use. only thing that made that spec work however was when HB was higher up in the tree and Hungering Cold was the 51 point talent. I think it would work but as far as Blizz actually changing it back, I highly doubt it happen.

[Totle]

Your table is incorrect and poorly thought out. Please understand the basic points of the class before making threads trying to revamp a class you don't know how to play

Thanks for contributing, I'm glad we can have a proper discussion without someone sitting there bitching about every single OP and why what they write is wrong.

Moving on.

Vvr - I agree with your table in some aspects, but the point I was trying to make was that the 'end-all-be-all' ability of frost was meant for pvp and didn't necessarily contribute. Blizz tried to change this by switching Howling Blast (they did this with Gargoyle, too if you remember) to the bottom, but they didn't change it's cast to match it's companion spells - this was what I trying to point out with my table.

This is essentially the big point is that if you throw up all diseases with razor ice and everything, pop deathchill, and hit HB, sure you can crit 5 guys for almost 8k each (40k overall), but the conditions to get that are way too erratic and uncontrollable, not to mention that this is extremely rare on boss fights.

Granted, it isn't the same thing as summoning a weapon or a pet to help you fight for X amount of time, so having a similar cool down on it would be heinous. Unless it got completely revamped into summoning a melee-esque frost wyrm or a rime fang kind of thing, it's obviously going to be different.

With the new rune cool down system being implemented, we aren't going to have such long pauses where we need to have 4 Frost Strikes just so that we aren't sitting on our butts, swinging white hits during our rotation. Hence turning HB into an actual nuke and getting rid of spam strike, which doesn't do anything more than obliterate does - if anything, we should make the new Frost Strike talent into 'Frosty Strikes' = something that allows Obliterate to be cast either with 1FU or 1D...

[xeroxide]

more like

Blood Frost Unholy
Frost-Uholy (FU) death strike obliterate scourge strike
aditional strike heart strike blood strike blood strike
runic power dump death coil (low dmg) frost strike death coil (high dmg)
CD DRW-hysteria U. armor gargoyle


howling blast just doesnt fit anywhere, and it is really dumb to have a talented spell that is only worth using when another talent makes it free cost, i really feel howling blast needs a change. blizzard is happy some classes having abilities that are just for lvling and that are replaced later at high lvl, they should make obliterate the lvling strike and howling blast the core FU spell for frost, and may be change rime to make obliterate free cost. im not sure thats a good change, or if that makes sense but, no other talent requires aditional talents to be worth of use

it make sense when you count HB with rime procs as well as killing machine. those two talents (both frost) turn HB into a free AOE crit maniac move

[khalpone]

it make sense when you count HB with rime procs as well as killing machine. those two talents (both frost) turn HB into a free AOE crit maniac move

I spent a large amount of this expansion as Unholy (except during the SS nerf, IT spam was lame), so I am used to putting up big numbers in AoE. I'm now DW Frost, and I still wince whenever I have a KM RIME Proc on a freshly agroed group. Makes me miss 3/3 Subversion. We have great tanks, so it only makes me sweat on new agro situations.

I actually find myself popping IBF before doing that combo :P

OP- HB is more like Hysteria for Blood dps. It's situational.

Any AE ability that's balanced on Single target (like whirlwind) ends up being bad for Balance in the class. Blizzard is making a bigger departure between AE and non AE abilities, trying to reduce the cross use abilities. As such, HB is likely to remain at the bottom of your priority tree in single target. The fact that you can use it on Single target is not really desired by the Devs (they've never mentioned HB specifically like this, just reading between the lines when they talk about Whirlwind).

That being said, they DO like giving us something to break up a rotation periodically, which is why they have the Free HB proc talent, RIME. We'll have to wait and see in the beta what they are intending the rotations to look like for 4.0.

[Totle]

Right, but my point is that - considering the position it has on the tree, as well as the other companion spells (DRW, Garg), HB is hugely at a disadvantage, if we were to consider how often Rime procs (much less with KM, since we're using that with FS), you could argue that we'll get it once a minute, same cd as DRW, but it does no where near the damage DRW does, much less have the utility and control that DRW has.

Considering that it's our final talent, it needs a revamp, because how it is now, and the necessity to only use it if it's free, it definitely doesn't belong at the 51.

(we should get a frost whirlwind instead >>)

[Rawfury]

I just feel like with Frost we should get some sort of a CD move(similiar to DRW or Ghoul). Maybe the expansion will move DRW to our tree hell they're still debating switching some talents so who knows.

If not yea make unbreakable maybe RP instead of a rune.

[Mordockk]

Right, but my point is that - considering the position it has on the tree, as well as the other companion spells (DRW, Garg), HB is hugely at a disadvantage, if we were to consider how often Rime procs (much less with KM, since we're using that with FS), you could argue that we'll get it once a minute, same cd as DRW, but it does no where near the damage DRW does, much less have the utility and control that DRW has.

Considering that it's our final talent, it needs a revamp, because how it is now, and the necessity to only use it if it's free, it definitely doesn't belong at the 51.

(we should get a frost whirlwind instead >>)

I understand your point that compared to the other 51 point talents it does less dmg and is only viable when the stars align(which is a lot when u play frost). it is kind of bleh', jsut another damaging ability......however its the hardest hitting spell in the game if you have a rime/km proc and a bunch of adds, if you want it re-worked than i doubt blizzard will still let you hit 80k damage when u mash ur button.

if you want it to be a CD move like blood or unholy it would just homogenize the trees. unbreakable armor should cost RP.

[Gerian]

Changing HB to a runic power ability would mean it'd have to do more damage per point of RP than frost strike to be even remotely useful as a single target ability. That would also put it far beyond IMBA in a multi-target situation. If you counteract that by putting a longer cooldown on the skill you're going to rape Frost's AoE ability.

[DSquared]

or just a thought......frost gets dancing runic weapon because blood is going tank
eh?

[Totle]

Changing HB to a runic power ability would mean it'd have to do more damage per point of RP than frost strike to be even remotely useful as a single target ability. That would also put it far beyond IMBA in a multi-target situation. If you counteract that by putting a longer cooldown on the skill you're going to rape Frost's AoE ability.

This is partially why I was saying that Frost Strike would be redundant, much as it is already - it's a filler ability for when our runes are on cool down, and with the new system they're implementing for runes, we're going to be using it that much less.

Personally, numbers aside, I always thought dancing rune was just a dumb ability. When compared to like, metamorphosis, blade storm, the mage-cloney thing, divine storm, or even gargoyle, it was always meh. So if we could get something cooler, like a frostwyrm that comes and does the exact same thing as DRW, I'd be happy.

Anyways, let's consider though, the 51 spells - either they're beefier regular attacks (chaos bolt, chimera shot) or they're cool down abilities (blade storm, gargoyle). HB doesn't fit into any of those, particularly it doesn't appear often enough. Blizz needs to rework the spell to fit into one of the two categories -

Beefy attack: Cost RP (remove Frost Strike), solid damage that's modified with diseases or RP, make it balance with Oblit the same way Conflag. and CB balance with each other

CD ability: make it like an orbital bombardment type thing, where you mark an area and a frost wyrm continually pelts that area with frost bombs that hits for unmodifiable X damage over Y sec. (Yeah, it's like gargoyle, don't like it? Come up with an alternative)

[Caean]

To me this smacks of changing things for the sake of changing things.

Frost has a "beefy" attack that does solid damage and is modified by diseases...it's Obliterate.

I think HB is great the way it is. Even without a dual KM/Rime proc, on packs you can do crazy damage with this spell.

On single targets you can still do a nice chunk of damage.

Right now Frost dps is a fantastic spec to play.

I really don't see the problem that needs to be solved here.

[HemmerN]

it's a filler ability for when our runes are on cool down, and with the new system they're implementing for runes, we're going to be using it that much less.

Accualy u will bee using it more since they are basicly cuting the ammount of strikes that uses runes in half

There will allways bee 10 sec (affected bu haste) between runes becoming active, so u get a lot more time to spend on frost strikes