If the difficulty is "nearly the same"...

[Zipp]

...does that mean you will only need 7-8 competent people to do 25s as well?

[sethers656]

No, you will need 70-80% of competent playes

[Burori135]

...does that mean you will only need 7-8 competent people to do 25s as well?

As it is right now 10 mans take more effort then 25 mans just because there are less players. If someone dies in a 10 man it hits the whole raid far far far harder then if someone dies in a 25 man. Due to the player difference 25 mans have more leniency. They will probably make 10mans easier or 25 mans harder. Personally I hope they make 25 mans harder!

[Nizjub]

to be honest im not sure what that means, the system in place now is there for a reason. To justify brining in 3 additional healers bosses will have to hit harder or more frequently. To justify brining in 8 or 9 more dps bosses would have to have more health. So it has to be in reality harder, but i guess relatively the same difficulty since u have more people. Which is exactly how it is now, at least for normal encounters.

Other wise the new standard 25 man raid is 2 tanks, 3 healers and 20 dps

[Herecius]

My primary concern is that this will return us to the very awkward WotLK-release situation where 10-man raids were actually HARDER than the 25man version due to strange tuning. Mind you, it was the re-released Naxx, nothing about it was actually hard, but still. 25mans are more difficult because 15 more people means 15 more ways to die to any boss ability that can damage the raid in some way. I really don't understand those that claim that 10man raids are somehow currently more difficult than 25; if that were the case, why are there a lot more guilds deeply progressed in 10s, and yet stuck on the LK-normal in 25?

Balancing 10/25 raids to have the same difficulty seems like an impossible nightmare, but if Blizz thinks they can do it... we'll see.

[Astray]

25 is so much harder because of the bad framerate arrghhhh!

[Deleted]

...does that mean you will only need 7-8 competent people to do 25s as well?

The dificiulty is the same the scale of HP of bosses, etc isnt obviously use your brain before posting and if you are trolling its starting be an overkill already so stop it, the game inst even in beta all this can be changed.

[Deleted]

25 is so much harder because of the bad framerate arrghhhh!

Don't forget the lag.

[Gilgemesh]

to be honest im not sure what that means, the system in place now is there for a reason. To justify brining in 3 additional healers bosses will have to hit harder or more frequently. To justify brining in 8 or 9 more dps bosses would have to have more health. So it has to be in reality harder, but i guess relatively the same difficulty since u have more people. Which is exactly how it is now, at least for normal encounters.

Other wise the new standard 25 man raid is 2 tanks, 3 healers and 20 dps

Actually, aside from a few hard mode fights, the 10 man instances are tuned quite a bit more easy than the 25 mans are. With the new system, the 10 man fights will be tuned to be as difficult as the 25 mans. Since the gear you'll be getting will be more predictable(as 10/25's will be giving same gear), then the threshold for entering the dungeon as a whole(10/25) will be the same.

[AnotherPaladin]

I work a lot harder in 10 mans then I do 25's, so I'm actually really excited for the whole equal gear thing. Not so much about the whole raid lockout period.

[rabbimojo]

...
I really don't understand those that claim that 10man raids are somehow currently more difficult than 25; if that were the case, why are there a lot more guilds deeply progressed in 10s, and yet stuck on the LK-normal in 25?
...

Because you can outgear 10s, but not 25s?
Because it's easier to recruit a high percent of your pug as skilled players when it's 10 rather than 25?

10s put more emphasis on individual skill. A single player can make an enormous difference in whether you win or wipe. In 25s, that's still fairly true of tanks, but the rest of the roles lose a lot of the individuality.

10s are tuned more lightly, as well, and tuned towards being in 10s-level gear. This means if you've got even a single toravon25 drop, you're starting towards outgearing Icc10, and it has a pretty significant impact.

It's also easier with 10 people to see what failed in a given fight, so you've got plenty of signal to improve upon.

If they end up making 10s as tightly-tuned as 25s, then I think it will be interesting.

[Nizjub]

Actually, aside from a few hard mode fights, the 10 man instances are tuned quite a bit more easy than the 25 mans are. With the new system, the 10 man fights will be tuned to be as difficult as the 25 mans. Since the gear you'll be getting will be more predictable(as 10/25's will be giving same gear), then the threshold for entering the dungeon as a whole(10/25) will be the same.

i didnt know that, i always assumed it was just a scaling in most for health and damage, with slight tweeks to having less tanks in 10 man

[Myrsky]

Basically the way I want it was like in Vanilla.

If you had the concept of Vanilla in Wrath it would've been so much better. How trash were basically mini-bosses in their own right and the bosses themselves were godlike and actually fun to defeat because they were so goddamn hard.

Basically...

Vanilla: It took 3 months or so to down Ragnaros, only a few guilds in the entire world even finished Naxxramas even. (I want raid difficulty like that, maybe not that hard but atleast more of a challenge than what it is now).

To sum it up...

7 days, 100 million health
84 days, 1.1 million health


Nuff said... I want old raid difficulty back. >.>

[vesseblah]

Obviously some people fail to have even the basic grasp of what scaling means.

At the moment 10-man instances are tuned to have 2 tanks 3 healers and 5 dps, and 25-man instances for 2 tanks 5 healers and 18 dps. Basically this means that to match the difficulty for enrage timers for example, the boss health needs to be roughly on 5:18 ratio. For each 1m health in 10-man there has to be 3.6m health in 25-man instance for the boss to die at exactly same time. There's also small difference of maybe 15% that comes from raid buffs in 25-mans which can be easily factored in.

Also same thing happens in examples like Val'kyrs at Lich King fight. To make 10-man on par with 25, the Val'kyr just has 5:18 ratio of health compared to the three in 25-man total, and maybe move 5% faster to compensate for the lack of raid not splitting up. Same thing, mob should die at roughly the same distance from boss towards edge. Easily happens for Defile as well. People cry about having it harder for 25 ppl to split out from it instead of 10. So the easy and obvious solution is to make the 10-man defile grow faster. Suddenly it requires just as much or even faster reactions than the 25-man version to move out of it.

Balacing the two is going to be easier than people think, if they'd just stop to think for a minute instead of starting a stream of endless QQ.

edit:

Vanilla: It took 3 months or so to down Ragnaros,

Nuff said... I want old raid difficulty back. >.>

Reality check is recommended. Ragnaros took months to kill because it was a damn gear check. Strategy was never hard, collecting enough fire resistance for whole raid took time. Resistance checks are the pinnacle of stupidity in game design. Check out AQ & Cleanse totems for reference.

[Astray]

Nuff said... I want old raid difficulty back. >.>

10 mans:
individual skill: 80%
resistance to wipe-frustration: 20%

40 mans:
individual skill: 20%
resistance to wipe-frustration: 80%

[Albert the fish]

Basically the way I want it was like in Vanilla.

If you had the concept of Vanilla in Wrath it would've been so much better. How trash were basically mini-bosses in their own right and the bosses themselves were godlike and actually fun to defeat because they were so goddamn hard.

Basically...

Vanilla: It took 3 months or so to down Ragnaros, only a few guilds in the entire world even finished Naxxramas even. (I want raid difficulty like that, maybe not that hard but atleast more of a challenge than what it is now).

To sum it up...

7 days, 100 million health
84 days, 1.1 million health


Nuff said... I want old raid difficulty back. >.>

not only is this wrong because of the res gear and random wipe bollocks the others pointed out it's also wrong because, and read this carefully

RAIDING NEVER GOT EASIER

the player base just got more informed and started crunching math. in vanilla we were all in the dark as to game mechanics as compared to TBC or WotLK.

so you want Vanilla difficulty back? start raiding with people without looking up stat weights or established rotations(to include priority lists) or boss strats or using any mods whatsoever.

you can maybe use the in-game stopwatch to look for timers, but that might be cheating a bit.

[Nikoll]

As it is right now 10 mans take more effort then 25 mans just because there are less players. If someone dies in a 10 man it hits the whole raid far far far harder then if someone dies in a 25 man. Due to the player difference 25 mans have more leniency. They will probably make 10mans easier or 25 mans harder. Personally I hope they make 25 mans harder!

i think your scale is going the wrong way. i can probably tank all of 10 man icc in ret gear and get away with it on half the bosses. in 25 man i could never do that.

[eyesolated]

stop thinking in today's standards. just because the healing model in 25s revolves around "some pala put beacon on on of the tanks and spam some heal on the other the entire fight" try to think about the cata model, where healspamming probably won't work. along that line, i seriously doubt you could tank even a heroic in cata in ret gear.

[Heywes]

10mans were easier because people did them in 25man and 25man heroic gear. Of course it will be easy then.
thats why blizzard added those achievments for doing specific encounters in a gear level that was only obtainable from that instance in its current version.
They aren't perfectly even but when you did it in gear that didn't out gear the content it was alot more interesting.

Iron Council before the first nerf was a decent example of this. On 10man in the correct level of gear you needed smart individuals to do it, you couldnt just walk in and waltz it, you actually needed some brains. Rather enjoyable when your with a group of 9 mates

[Nikoll]

stop thinking in today's standards. just because the healing model in 25s revolves around "some pala put beacon on on of the tanks and spam some heal on the other the entire fight" try to think about the cata model, where healspamming probably won't work. along that line, i seriously doubt you could tank even a heroic in cata in ret gear.

...uh, blizz already said they want a ret paladin to be able to slap on RF an be able to tank some heroics and all normal dungeons.