Good and evil.

[Phenomina]

Well, I think it has to do with inner frustration and ego issues, and I'd rather consider it pitiful than evil. I consider that the level of consciousness and intent that matters. You'd hardly call an agressive phychopath "truly evil", because he simply doesn't comprehend what he is doing in the rational world. But even with high level of consciousness, the reasons for causing someone harm may outweigh that harm (like in case of Sylvanas).

There is still no reason for her to be causing people harm. They have fulfilled there lifes ojective. They have ample land... these things arn't being done out of needs for her people it's purely for her selfish desires.

She is doing to others the very thing that made her so angry in the first place.

Hey, I, too, provided examples of random properties and "missions" of races. Hell, mine are far more numerous. There's only 1 Forsaken that believes he can be cured in the whole world... so no, it's not normal in any way.

Your still making a strawman argument out of a point I already proved you wrong with.

There ain't no survival or national interests like in case of WoW's Forsaken, mind you. They're just enjoying to eat children alive... literally. Now THAT's pure evil, devoid of any reason.

WoW's Forsaken think just like that as well, they may as be in Warhammer. They kill children, women all of that for fun. They destroy the enviroment around them... There is a difference between expanding your borders and trying to take over a continent.

Forsaken have a story of shifting allegiances and some grand betrayals, tenuous relationships with the Horde, they were a bridge for BE into the Horde, they're involved with WoW's story since the moment they were created.

Draenei, on the other hand, participated in TBC... that's all. Aside from being "ally shamans", which they are not about lorewise really (they're about Light), they have no function this far. They did nothing in Wrath, don't seem to be doing anything in Cataclysm, and frankly I don't see them doing anything aside generic lawful good stuff in future unless something radical gets changed about them. Maybe Velen would have to die and cause heavy disorder about power in Exodar, maybe half of them would have to become Broken for some reason.

The Forsaken story is brutal... your a former scourge with free will, but not really free will because your forced to serve Sylvanas. For some reason even though you supposedly have free will you enjoy eating and kill living people now, no one trusts you and no one likes you. Your part of the only faction that is pure evil yet cry about how misunderstood they are... Zombie's are boring.

As for the Draenei, as I said wait until the last expansion when they lead the Army of Light against Sargeras, hopefully by then the Forsaken will come out of the closet so to speak and admit they are Scourge 2.0

Evil human skulls. Not fit for undead's feng shui.

Yeah I s'pose it wouldn't go well with the slime, rats, corpses and garbage you find in the Undercity.. That must have been another thing they lost in the Scourge process... the ability to clean up after yourself.

[Overmind the 3rd]

Well, I think it has to do with inner frustration and ego issues, and I'd rather consider it pitiful than evil. I consider that the level of consciousness and intent is what matters. You'd hardly call an agressive phychopath "truly evil", because he simply doesn't comprehend what he is doing in the rational world. But even with high level of consciousness, the reasons for causing someone harm may outweigh that harm (like in case of Sylvanas).

Evil guys of Warhammer have a certain grain of rationality in that they may be granted power by Dark Gods, in the name of which they do all of that, but in the end they are a hypothetical organized force of psychopats (which is an oxymoron).

Well, I never meant to suggest "real evil" was a viable condition. It's my opinion that we as humans are incapable of pure evil, there is always a purpose to what we do, whether conscious or otherwise. The closest we come to such a thing is often by way of severely impaired perception, as is the case for violent psychopaths and those under the influence of powerful intoxicants.

[Haven]

There is still no reason for her to be causing people harm.

Oh. Wow. Why does Alliance fight anyway, they're causing harm to everyone by their refusal to lay down weapons and go away.

They have fulfilled there lifes ojective.

They simply came up with a new one.

They have ample land...

No.

these things arn't being done out of needs for her people it's purely for her selfish desires.

Because you say so?

Your still making a strawman argument out of a point I already proved you wrong with.

No, you do. You are wrong, and I proved it (I can actually play this game too!).

WoW's Forsaken think just like that as well, they may as be in Warhammer. They kill children, women all of that for fun. They destroy the enviroment around them... There is a difference between expanding your borders and trying to take over a continent.

Again, you're imagining things which you have no proof of. Imagining "true intentions" like you're the only one who knows 'em.

As for the Draenei, as I said wait until the last expansion when they lead the Army of Light against Sargeras, hopefully by then the Forsaken will come out of the closet so to speak and admit they are Scourge 2.0

They gonna still be a playable faction. Ergo, a part of that Army of Light. Suck that, squidface, we're on equals in Army of Light This thought is somewhat hilarious. Imagine the draenei's disgusted faces along with realisation that they have to shut up and bear with it

Yeah I s'pose it wouldn't go well with the slime, rats, corpses and garbage you find in the Undercity.. That must have been another thing they lost in the Scourge process... the ability to clean up after yourself.

There are no rats in UC. The place is in fact pretty sterile. However, there are rats and beggars in Stormwind... talk about dirt and garbage.

---------- Post added 2010-08-26 at 07:41 AM ----------

Well, I never meant to suggest "real evil" was a viable condition. It's my opinion that we as humans are incapable of pure evil, there is always a purpose to what we do, whether conscious or otherwise. The closest we come to such a thing is often by way of severely impaired perception, as is the case for violent psychopaths and those under the influence of powerful intoxicants.

Agreed. I think this is why people now mostly apply the term "evil" to actions that go without regard to others' well-being (which is in fact normal in a medieval world like Azeroth).

[Supercrunchy]

I wanna get in on this

Oh. Wow. Why does Alliance fight anyway, they're causing harm to everyone by their refusal to lay down weapons and go away.

same could be said for the horde... and what is the alliance going to do? Just give up and be killed? and besides if they gave up then the game would end because not everyone wants to play horde races and alot of people wouldnt like those races joining the horde if they did, also it wouldnt make sense

They gonna still be a playable faction. Ergo, a part of that Army of Light. Suck that, squidface, we're on equals in Army of Light This thought is somewhat hilarious. Imagine the draenei's disgusted faces along with realisation that they have to shut up and bear with it

Unless that part takes place in Warcraft 4 after WoW ends and they are evil and non playable

There are no rats in UC. The place is in fact pretty sterile. However, there are rats and beggars in Stormwind... talk about dirt and garbage

yeah but in UC theres a bunch of walking rotting corpses who probably are still decaying

[Elementium]

There are no rats in UC. The place is in fact pretty sterile. However, there are rats and beggars in Stormwind... talk about dirt and

And people claim blind faction pride from me..

Your aware of the cockroaches, abomination parts, rivers of green liquid, oh yeah.. and Undead. See if this game had the technology to let you smell the characters you play, no one would pick undead.

[Reinhard von Lohengramm]

And people claim blind faction pride from me..

Your aware of the cockroaches,

a vendor sells them, and they are only around him

abomination parts,

think of it like "making tanks"

rivers of green liquid

there to add "flavour" to UC
[quote]undead[/quotes]
the city is unclean because the people who live in it are who they are?

See if this game had the technology to let you smell the characters you play, no one would pick undead.

i would turn it off if i didnt like it
and it wouldnt only be undead!

beggers there mean that varian is a good king and his people are not slackers /sarcasm

[Phenomina]

Oh. Wow. Why does Alliance fight anyway, they're causing harm to everyone by their refusal to lay down weapons and go away.

Is that really your counter argument? The Alliance won't roll over and die and are forced to defend themselves thus causing harm to the attackers that wish to take over the continent? lulz..

They simply came up with a new one.

Yeah a very evil one. At least the first mission had some sort of honor in it, destroy the guy who ruined their lives.. now it's just seems they are trying to one-up Arthas

No.

No they don't have enough land? They have more land then the Tauren who are one of the very first races to grace Azeroth and your saying these necromatic freaks of nature are entitled to more land?

No, you do. You are wrong, and I proved it (I can actually play this game too!).

That doesn't make any sense... not sure which game your playing but anyone following our conversation would be left looking at you saying " wtf?! "

Again, you're imagining things which you have no proof of. Imagining "true intentions" like you're the only one who knows 'em.

Screenshots of Southshore are all I need, plus the innocent farmers killed in WPL help the case as well. Even you can't really believe there " true intention " is just to procreate...

They gonna still be a playable faction. Ergo, a part of that Army of Light. Suck that, squidface, we're on equals in Army of Light This thought is somewhat hilarious. Imagine the draenei's disgusted faces along with realisation that they have to shut up and bear with it

Forsaken are equals to only the Scourge. To the rest of the world they are vile dishonest shells of the proud Humans and Elves they were in there former lives.

There are no rats in UC. The place is in fact pretty sterile. However, there are rats and beggars in Stormwind... talk about dirt and garbage.

Yeah sterile... lol. I notice a trend that as your arguments start to fall south you start making up weird random stuff. You used to be much better at these debates. * sigh *

[Kellorkleft]

There is no such thing as evil. Everyone thinks what they're doing is right and evil is only in the eye of the perceiver.

We're talking about fantasy genre, brah.

[Phenomina]

a vendor sells them, and they are only around him

think of it like "making tanks"

there to add "flavour" to UC undead
the city is unclean because the people who live in it are who they are?
i would turn it off if i didnt like it
and it wouldnt only be undead!

beggers there mean that varian is a good king and his people are not slackers /sarcasm

I love how you tried to go into detail why the Undercity is not a cesspool of filth.

Sometimes faction pride goes beyond rational lol

As for beggers... there will always been a poverty class, homeless etc... save your sarcasm and provide some decent counter arguments

I'm still seriously chuckling over the " Undercity is clean " statements

[Kellorkleft]

Do the Forsaken still have those prisoners of the Alliance that they conduct horrible experiments and torture on?
Yup, those guys are just misunderstood people.

While the Alliance gave mercy and life to the orcs that nearly destroyed Azeroth out of reckless hate, the Horde cares little for the other side. Hell, considering the infighting, I doubt they care that much about each other.

[Deleted]

Do the Forsaken still have those prisoners of the Alliance that they conduct horrible experiments and torture on?
Yup, those guys are just misunderstood people.

From what I recall those were either Scarlet Crusaders or people from Hillsbrad, and thus not part of the Grand Alliance.

What the Forsaken were doing to them is despicable, but don't confuse them. The Alliance of Lordaeron is dead now, and the Grand Alliance is not the same political body.

[Kellorkleft]

From what I recall those were either Scarlet Crusaders or people from Hillsbrad, and thus not part of the Grand Alliance.

What the Forsaken were doing to them is despicable, but don't confuse them. The Alliance of Lordaeron is dead now, and the Grand Alliance is not the same political body.

I believe I read that they were capturing Alliance (modern) and Scarlet alike. Its one of the reasons Varian was enraged when he assaulted Undercity and discovered what was going on.

[Deleted]

I believe I read that they were capturing Alliance (modern) and Scarlet alike. Its one of the reasons Varian was enraged when he assaulted Undercity and discovered what was going on.

I doubt they'd bother, I mean you have quite an abundance nearby, and for the sake of experimenting the Stormwind and Hillsbrad Humans are the same.

But hey, that's just my explanation.

[Skiball]

There is no such thing as evil. Everyone thinks what they're doing is right and evil is only in the eye of the perceiver.

Hitler says hi to you, he perceives you need to die.


Anyway, I agree with an above poster, you made that decision in chosing horde or Alliance.

[Kellorkleft]

Hitler says hi to you, he perceives you need to die.


Anyway, I agree with an above poster, you made that decision in chosing horde or Alliance.

Hitler was a pretty cool guy if you weren't on his hit list. He just always sounds angry.

[Igneous42]

There is no such thing as evil. Everyone thinks what they're doing is right and evil is only in the eye of the perceiver.

while I don't really want to argue ethics there are some people who knowingly do what they perceive to be evil and do it all the same, or in some cases precisely because they know it to be wrong/evil. I would say they are in the minority, most people think what they are doing is good but not everyone.

As for the topic regardless of faction you're supposed to be "heroes" it would be very hard to design lore and dungeons if good and evil were options that effected your character. Plus while i like the concept not every game needs a morality system, WoW is definitely one that is fine without it.

[Haven]

and what are the Forsaken going to do? Just give up and be killed?

Pardon me for messing with quoted post, but I needed to show that situation works both ways.

And people claim blind faction pride from me..

Your aware of the cockroaches, abomination parts, rivers of green liquid, oh yeah.. and Undead. See if this game had the technology to let you smell the characters you play, no one would pick undead.

Undead have a different perception of smell to begin with. Besides, cockroaches are only around their vendor (while SW rats and beggars are in the streets, not speaking of Deeprun Tram), abomination parts are not littered all around, they're only in RAS lab, and what makes you think green liquid doesn't smell like jasmine? I dare you to walk around UC and SW and actually pay attention instead of making stereotypical associations. Besides, just try to think what kind of parasites can live in a city, inhabitants of which don't eat (therefore, no leftovers and fecals), and do a lot of experimentation with substances that are meant to kill all living things. And if the Forsaken would still be rotting, they'd be skeletons to begin with. Decay is very swift in open air.

Is that really your counter argument? The Alliance won't roll over and die and are forced to defend themselves thus causing harm to the attackers that wish to take over the continent? lulz..

Is that really your initial argument? The Forsaken won't roll over and die and are forced to defend themselves thus causing harm to the attackers that wish to take over the continent? lulz..

No they don't have enough land? They have more land then the Tauren who are one of the very first races to grace Azeroth and your saying these necromatic freaks of nature are entitled to more land?

Exactly.

That doesn't make any sense... not sure which game your playing but anyone following our conversation would be left looking at you saying " wtf?! "

I just mirror-copied your manner of making an argument.

Screenshots of Southshore are all I need, plus the innocent farmers killed in WPL help the case as well. Even you can't really believe there " true intention " is just to procreate...

Aaaahahahaha gotcha! There are no corpses on Southshore screenshots - you used absolutely the same arguments to prove that only 4 tauren were killed in Camp Taurajo massacre in another thread recently. And those "innocent" militiamen attacked Forsaken despite Thassarian's orders and truce with Koltira, so it was pure self-defense.

Forsaken are equals to only the Scourge. To the rest of the world they are vile dishonest shells of the proud Humans and Elves they were in there former lives.

Which doesn't prevent them from kicking ass and causing infinite qq of ally fanboys that can do absolutely nothing about it.

Yeah sterile... lol. I notice a trend that as your arguments start to fall south you start making up weird random stuff. You used to be much better at these debates. * sigh *

I notice a trend that as your arguments start to fall south you start saying things like "lol I am simply right and you fail" despite actually giving up and abandoning the argument.

[Reinhard von Lohengramm]

I love how you tried to go into detail why the Undercity is not a cesspool of filth.

The city that belongs to the playable UNDEAD race. is still more "managed" as the human capital

Sometimes faction pride goes beyond rational lol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
ty for the new sig

As for beggers... there will always been a poverty class, homeless etc... save your sarcasm and provide some decent counter arguments

Yet in cata alot of stormwind citizens go homeless etc and varian does NOTHING. A good leader trys to do something about that, does varian?

I'm still seriously chuckling over the " Undercity is clean " statements

again, city of the undead race. atleast it isnt as bad as stormwind.

[Kellorkleft]

Yet in cata alot of stormwind citizens go homeless etc and varian does NOTHING. A good leader trys to do something about that, does varian?

After all, poverty is quite an easy problem to fix. Look at all the other past civilizations that easily overcame this issue.

again, city of the undead race. atleast it isnt as bad as stormwind.

Because they don't have rats and bums? Where do undead sleep in the Undercity, anyway?

[Phenomina]

Undead have a different perception of smell to begin with. Besides, cockroaches are only around their vendor (while SW rats and beggars are in the streets, not speaking of Deeprun Tram), abomination parts are not littered all around, they're only in RAS lab, and what makes you think green liquid doesn't smell like jasmine? I dare you to walk around UC and SW and actually pay attention instead of making stereotypical associations. Besides, just try to think what kind of parasites can live in a city, inhabitants of which don't eat (therefore, no leftovers and fecals), and do a lot of experimentation with substances that are meant to kill all living things. And if the Forsaken would still be rotting, they'd be skeletons to begin with. Decay is very swift in open air.

HAAHAHA You guys really do crack me up. Seriously you could write a novel trying to explain yourself... at the end of the day people are still going to know that the Undercity is not clean, would smell terrible and probably very unsanitary. However feel free to keep me entertained with your reasons.

Is that really your initial argument? The Forsaken won't roll over and die and are forced to defend themselves thus causing harm to the attackers that wish to take over the continent? lulz..

No it wasn't as feel free to look back a few pages to find it. Seems like your out of arguments so your copying mine and re wording? The Forsaken are not forced to defend themselves. They are the aggressors. It's not called self defence if your on the attack.

Exactly.

Care to elaborate why they are entitled to take more land when they aleady have a huge chunk of it?

I just mirror-copied your manner of making an argument.

Perhaps you should try making a proper counter argument... your copy and paste mirror ones don't work well.

Aaaahahahaha gotcha! There are no corpses on Southshore screenshots - you used absolutely the same arguments to prove that only 4 tauren were killed in Camp Taurajo massacre in another thread recently. And those "innocent" militiamen attacked Forsaken despite Thassarian's orders and truce with Koltira, so it was pure self-defense.

Got me? I'm sorry but no. My argument for the 4 Tauren comes from the quest text that tells you to use the ritual on four Tauren, it had nothing to do with the screenshot. Since we don't know the quest's involved with Southshore we have no way of knowing for sure yet. However due to there character I'm sure we know what happened. Your self defence claim for the farmers only shows you have not read the quest texts, allow me to enlighten you. The farmers were attacked first by Sylvanas in disguise during this treaty. They countered attacked the Forsaken. Apparently Koltira shouldn't have been making deals the Banshee Queen doesn't approve of, either way the Forsaken struck first. ( as always )

I notice a trend that as your arguments start to fall south you start saying things like "lol I am simply right and you fail" despite actually giving up and abandoning the argument.

More copy and pasting my arguments and flipping words. Dissapointing and incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irony
ty for the new sig

I'm glad I've inspired you, sadly nothing you write will ever be good enough to be a quoted sig.

The city that belongs to the playable UNDEAD race. is still more "managed" as the human capital

How so? Stormwind looks amazing, Undercity looks terrible. In fact it was the place all the Lordaeron beggers and bums used to live when they were humans. Chances are most of those bums got crushed by Arthas and are now part of the Forsaken.... perhaps it is a fitting home for the army of the homeless.