Idea to bring casuals and hardcores to an understanding *gulp*

[Rhaide]

The way that WoW USED TO WORK, was you got a fair amount of gear no matter how much you played, it was just that the options were better at higher levels of play (like the people who devote tons of time to it). Back in vanilla, getting the final tier of gear was a big deal and required a LOT of stuff, not just points from killing bosses. People got used to that, people liked that, people paid for that. Now those loyal fans who have paid through the nose over the years get the shaft; they changed the dynamic of the game. You used to get gear proportional to the time you put into the game. Now the game spits loot out at you with the only stipulation that you have to not die of boredom while you farm the same easy content over and over for the same gear that everyone is getting.

You know... there is an easy solution... I can't believe no one has thought of it... Split the player base. Do this by adding a 'Challenging' mode to raids, a step above normal, but a step below heroic.

Check this out, and I'm serious, I think this is a great idea.

Here's an example of how iLevel would look for hardcores vs casuals. (obviously I'm using farcical iLevels here, but the incrementation is what I want you to look at)

Hardcores:

Dungeons : iLevel 300
Heroics : iLevel 320
Raids (Challenging) : 360
Raids (Heroic) : 380
Raids (Heroic endbosses / items from quests like Shadowmourne) : 390 - 400

For casuals:

Dungeons : iLevel 300
Heroics : iLevel 320
Raids (Normal) : 340
Raids (Challenging) : 360
Raids (Challenging endbosses / items from quests like quel'serrar) : 370 - 380

The difference in difficulty between Normal and Challenging raids wouldn't be gear based, it would be skill based. Because of this, more experienced, hardcores could jump right into challenging, ditch heroic gear and get into 360 gear, and after much farming and learning, bump up to heroic and ultimately earn 380 gear. After a couple months, people would start to get the special 'shadowmourne-like' items.

Whereas, the casuals would come out of heroics and do normal mode raids first, it would require only the same gear as challenging mode, but the skill required would be less. Less fires to stand in, less rough pulls between bosses (so all the inevitable AFKS that casuals pull to 'take out trash so my mom won't ground me') won't force the raid to end prematurely. While the initial thought would be, "Wait, I'm technically a casual, but I want good gear right away too! It's not fair that these people get it and I don't, I PAY THE SAME!... ultimately, the gear difference between normal and challenging, wouldn't be THAT much off the bat. Like the difference between 10s and 25s; because of this, casuals wouldn't mind doing an easier and faster version. Heck, I know a lot of casuals who would love a streamlined dungeon with JUST bosses (ToC style). However, the difference in gear would be ENOUGH so that more experienced players wouldn't go to normal to get gear before going to challenging, challenging would offer gear that would make heroic that much easier.

And for the most part hardcores wouldn't hang out in challenging farming the special gear when they can just move on to heroic mode and get closer to farming that heroic special gear. So you wouldn't have tons of elitists in challenging mode, they would gear up and move on just like the casuals from normal mode.

Essentially, this model solves almost every problem.

1) Casuals play with other casuals in normal raids, no hardcores harrassing them.
2) Hardcores play in heroic with other hardcores, with no casuals bringing the dps down.
3) Experienced casuals and low gear hardcores play together in challenging, this balances skill a bit and would smooth over lots of problems. The tiny, one step bump in gear for the casuals would help offset the fact that they haven't painstakingly researched their class to maximize dps; while the experience of the hardcores would offset the fact that their gear is a tiny step below the casuals fresh out of normal mode.

Anyone have any ideas or feedback on this idea?

[Vladilena]

Interesting theory... But I don't think this'd really solve any of those three issues you pointed out. It is certainly possible and isn't very uncommon to out-DPS someone with superior gear, afterall.
Besides, I was under the impression that Blizzard isn't going to "spit loot" at anybody this time.

The game is already split in this way with normal modes and hard modes, don't think adding another step would do much.

[Malthanis]

They have stated time and again that (at the raid level) normals can and will get PuGged, while Heroics will be for those superior players/guilds that need a challenge. The loot dropped will reflect this fact.

[Buckyboyd]

I don't understand how "challenging" mode differs from the same system they have in game already. Top raiders will do heroic modes while casuals continue to do regular...

[Voij]

Some things seemed strange to me:
a) Your first paragraph is a rant against Blizzards idea of changing the game. Pretty much paints a very nice picture of you being a Vanilla-Lover AND a WotLK-Hater. [Also a casual-hater, but let's save that for later.]
b) You seem to not understand what hardcore and casual mean... in your first paragraph you describe something that fits to "hardcore". From then on, you seem to be under the impression that "hardcore" describes good players while "casual" describes bad players.
In truth, however, both terms only refer to the amount you play, not how well you play. [As an example, the top-raiders of the world take one evening to clear ICC+Ruby Sanctum, and then can stop playing for the rest of the week. That's 4hours per week spent in WoW, you can't get much more casual than that...]
c) There's not just "good" and "bad", there's lots of stuff between. While hardmodes don't really work for them, your solution doesn't help either.
d) Your suggestion results in 5 different types of gear per raid. Normal, Challenge, Challenge-Endboss, Hardmode, Hardmode-Endboss. They're trying to get away from stuff like that.
e) Splitting the player base in general is a horrible idea. Can totally understand why you are not working as a supervisor or anything alike.

[Gunslinger]

Why make yet another difficulty? It already has normal and hard, putting another one in between just for the casuals seems a waste of time for everybody.
I think heroic mode for raids is quite good. So what if you wipe a bit more on a heroic boss than you would as you put it on "challenging" difficulty. If you've done normal then by all means either try heroic or farm normal.
I don't mean to sound in a wrong way about the whole thing it's just that I have confidence that with the proper training and group involvement even those less skilled can get better.
It's probably not going to happen over night and there's probably a lot of people that are carried. Best way to solve things with be to put more stress on the PLAYER in raids so that they'll HAVE to perform better to get their loot and do content.

[Stubb]

If you're a hardcore raider and not a loser like me and have other obligations, then you'll have your badass gear (i277+ now) and us casuals will still only have 251/264 and wipe on HC Marrowgar with our fail guilds. Nothing will change.

[Rhaide]

Some things seemed strange to me:
a) Your first paragraph is a rant against Blizzards idea of changing the game. Pretty much paints a very nice picture of you being a Vanilla-Lover AND a WotLK-Hater. [Also a casual-hater, but let's save that for later.]
b) You seem to not understand what hardcore and casual mean... in your first paragraph you describe something that fits to "hardcore". From then on, you seem to be under the impression that "hardcore" describes good players while "casual" describes bad players.
In truth, however, both terms only refer to the amount you play, not how well you play. [As an example, the top-raiders of the world take one evening to clear ICC+Ruby Sanctum, and then can stop playing for the rest of the week. That's 4hours per week spent in WoW, you can't get much more casual than that...]
c) There's not just "good" and "bad", there's lots of stuff between. While hardmodes don't really work for them, your solution doesn't help either.
d) Your suggestion results in 5 different types of gear per raid. Normal, Challenge, Challenge-Endboss, Hardmode, Hardmode-Endboss. They're trying to get away from stuff like that.
e) Splitting the player base in general is a horrible idea. Can totally understand why you are not working as a supervisor or anything alike.

I think it stands to reason that casuals aren't on EJ for 3 hours figuring out EXACTLY where that last talent point should go to max their dps; I also don't think you'll find many casuals farming to get gold to regem every piece of gear they have just because they hit a stat cap. Because of this, hardcores (who DO that) will always outdps a casual.

I don't really think it's necessary to put words in my mouth, nor to be as insulting as you were, I played vanilla for only 6 months before BC came out. I actually liked the system because even if you were casual it offered a LOT to do, it just offered more for hardcores. That was a good system; so yeah, vanilla was a good thing. Wrath was a fun deviation but not as good; but I don't hate it either. Towards the end however, they DID just start throwing loot at people. Everything but 25 man heroic gear was easily obtained. There was a HUGE rift between Shadowmourne and LK hardmode and EVERYTHING ELSE IN THE GAME. Everything else was joke... and yes, I've done mostly everything else so I know. So the people who want a REAL challenge got the finger because they had really only one to two things to work towards... and most people couldn't even use shadowmourne.

I'm only suggesting 3 tiers of gear, the 'endboss' parts of my list are just because the last boss or any special quests that requires like a month or more of time in that raid to do are always a step above the gear in the rest of the raid. I thought that was clear, I don't know what you're misunderstanding. So explain to me exactly who wouldn't like this system. All it would do would be to basically make a 'casual version' of a raid, a 'hardcore' version of the raid, and a meet in the middle version that everyone will be in at some point or another. Casuals would like it because they wouldn't have to deal with getting kicked out of groups constantly and laughed at because they gemmed crit (well... that's not as bad as it used to be lol). Hardcores would like it because they would know every player in the group would pull their weight; it would be obvious if someone shouldn't be there.

I don't assume every casual is bad, but it is true that BY DEFINITION they aren't as good as a hardcore player. As for the 'take the trash out' comment. You won't ever see a hardcore say that, not that ALL casuals do, but they certainly do 100x more. It happened the last raid I was in, his mom made him walk the dog or he couldn't play anymore. So 20 minutes later when he got back, the tank had perma-afked. That might be ok for casuals, but us hardcores hate when we sit down for a nice long session only to have it literally ruined halfway through and now we have nothing to do for the next 2 hours. Most hardcore WoW players play as much as they do because other games just don't hold their attention. I know for one, I can't STAND sports games, and most other games just don't do it for me as much as WoW does. That's why hardcores are hardcores.

Your definition of hardcores (4 hours a week) is wrong also, that's after content has been out and is easily farmable. That's not what we're talking about. I'm talking about at a progression level. When content first comes out, hardcores are the people who take off 3 days of work, who do that dungeon for 12 straight hours the first day etc. While casuals generally look for a group for a while, and after a lot of struggling and player replacing, maybe kill the first boss or two of a raid. That is because casuals don't normally spend tons of time watching vids of the new encounters and reading strats. Again, I'm not saying CASUAL = BAD LOLOLOL. I'm just saying, they don't put the time in to learn their stuff right away. It takes them a bit longer normally, there are always exceptions.

As for splitting the playerbase, all I mean is separating the casuals from the hardcores in a raiding environment, anyone who thinks they like being stuffed in together is just plain nuts. Also, thanks for the personal insult, good thing you can show some maturity.

I take it you're a butthurt casual who didn't like that I suggested you MAYBE shouldn't get the best gear in the game for just showing up.... :O

[davesurfer]

I think the regular/heroic is fine. Hardcore raiders should only do regular once to get "attuned" to heroic. I think they have accomplished this. I know people moan that it is just the same yet...wait for it...harder.

To me they solved 2 problems:
1) people cry for attunement to keep scrubs out (although that never happened as we as a guild spent time getting people attuned)
2) regular mode for normal players and Hardmodes for hardcore players.

I like that system, but I would change one thing: Everyone in the raid has to have beaten regular to do heroic.

[Rhaide]

I have mostly 264 gear with some 251; I'm almost hardcore, but not quite. I get all x-pacs the day they come out and I tell my girlfriend "Sorry hun, xpac came out, I belong to it for 2 days, but after that we'll do whatever you want for a couple days".

I have been in several guilds with friends who aren't super hardcore. I actually like it, I just hate grouping with people who cry when they haven't shown up for 3 weeks and got passed over for gear. Or people who join your raid, then after beating putricide say "oh, well, I have other stuff I have to do... so bye". Not so easy to find a replacement that far in. Well, at least, it didn't used to be.

[Gratlim]

I have a scoop for you: a lot of casual players used to be hardcore raiders who eventually got tired or moved to more important things irl. My guild is made of the rest of top3 pve BC guilds on my server. They are indeed really skilled players. Then again casual, and could care less about world first or hc mode nowadays.

[Rhaide]

While I agree with your model, a lot of casuals cry because they don't get to see enough content while hardcores get to see it all. The reason for the 3rd difficulty is so that everyone has somewhere to start and to build up to (casuals - normal to challenging, and hardcore - challenging to heroic). I like that you'd have to beat a previous mode to get into heroic, but I would make it 'beat challenging to get into heroic'. I wouldn't make normal the thing to beat to get into heroic because then normals purpose (to keep the elitist hardcores out) would be defeated lol.[COLOR="red"]

---------- Post added 2010-10-20 at 07:43 PM ----------

I have a scoop for you: a lot of casual players used to be hardcore raiders who eventually got tired or moved to more important things irl. My guild is made of the rest of top3 pve BC guilds on my server. They are indeed really skilled players. Then again casual, and could care less about world first or hc mode nowadays.

That's not really news to me, I'm well aware that many hardcores stop playing a lot and become casuals. My definition of a casual still fits, if you don't like the game that much anymore, you're probably not spending tons of time researching your class and farming to get the gems and enchants you need to maximize dps.

Casuals are getting a persecution complex, every time someone even mentions the difference between a casual and a hardcore, dps-wise, they flip shit and think you're insulting their mother. THERE IS A DISCREPANCY IN DAMAGE BETWEEN HARDCORES AND CASUALS, even if the casual is a good player, THEY WILL NOT do as well as a hardcore simply because they don't put the time in, that's what being a casual means.

As for all the "I have better things to do IRL"; quit it. I live in my own place with my girlfriend and our wonderful husky. I have a good job and hang out with friends on a regular basis. Just because someone is hardcore (or almost hardcore like me) doesn't mean they have no life.

Gratlim, I'm glad your guild is successful, but it doesn't conflict with my model in any way.

---------- Post added 2010-10-20 at 07:48 PM ----------

Why make yet another difficulty? It already has normal and hard, putting another one in between just for the casuals seems a waste of time for everybody.
I think heroic mode for raids is quite good. So what if you wipe a bit more on a heroic boss than you would as you put it on "challenging" difficulty. If you've done normal then by all means either try heroic or farm normal.
I don't mean to sound in a wrong way about the whole thing it's just that I have confidence that with the proper training and group involvement even those less skilled can get better.
It's probably not going to happen over night and there's probably a lot of people that are carried. Best way to solve things with be to put more stress on the PLAYER in raids so that they'll HAVE to perform better to get their loot and do content.

I think there might be a small misunderstanding between us gunslinger. The model I'm putting forth does indeed have 3 difficulties, but casual players would only see 2 and hardcore players would only see 2. Hardcore players would never do normal, in essence, challenging would be their normal. The only reason normal exists is for casuals to get a bit more gear and learn the bosses in a friendlier environment so when they get to the slightly harder raid, they are more prepared and Bliz doesn't need to nerf everything because some players just can't do it.

Your second point, that a bad player can get better. I DEFINITELY agree with you, but we're not talking about good/bad players, we're talking about casuals and hardcores. Casuals don't put in the time to do the hard stuff, it's not a matter of how much potential you have, it's a matter of how much time you're willing to spend.

[Bazgab]

I think it stands to reason that casuals aren't on EJ for 3 hours figuring out EXACTLY where that last talent point should go to max their dps; I also don't think you'll find many casuals farming to get gold to regem every piece of gear they have just because they hit a stat cap. Because of this, hardcores (who DO that) will always outdps a casual.

That is not a casual vs hardcore player issue, that is an informed player vs. ignorant player issue. I am a casual and I read EJ (not for 3 hours mind you but that was an exaggeration on your part anyways) and I use dps simming programs (such as Enhsim) to further my understanding of what is best for my character. You don't have to be a hardcore player to understand stat caps, that is a very fundamental part of knowing how the stats affect your character as a raider. You talk as if casuals know nothing of how the game works and this just makes you seem like a jerk, and I like how you are only talking from a dps perspective cause ya know dps is the hardest role in a raid, especially when it comes to hardmodes. The current normal and hardmode model is fine.

Casuals are getting a persecution complex, every time someone even mentions the difference between a casual and a hardcore, dps-wise, they flip shit and think you're insulting their mother. THERE IS A DISCREPANCY IN DAMAGE BETWEEN HARDCORES AND CASUALS, even if the casual is a good player, THEY WILL NOT do as well as a hardcore simply because they don't put the time in, that's what being a casual means.

And by time you mean better gear, a casual can be just as "skilled" as a hardcore player, most aren't due to the hardcore putting in more time thus having their priority/rotation down exactly and knowing what to do in encounters at all times but saying that no casual can ever beat a hardcore player in dps is stupid.

[Rhaide]

That is not a casual vs hardcore player issue, that is an informed player vs. ignorant player issue. I am a casual and I read EJ (not for 3 hours mind you but that was an exaggeration on your part anyways) and I use dps simming programs (such as Enhsim) to further my understanding of what is best for my character. You don't have to be a hardcore player to understand stat caps, that is a very fundamental part of knowing how the stats affect your character as a raider. You talk as if casuals know nothing of how the game works and this just makes you seem like a jerk, and I like how you are only talking from a dps perspective cause ya know dps is the hardest role in a raid, especially when it comes to hardmodes. The current normal and hardmode model is fine.

While this may be the case for you, you have got to know that most casuals don't have any idea what a dps simming program is. You may be an exception, as I said in an earlier post, they do exist. But you didn't mention anything about gems or enchants, do you have all the best stuff? Because that has nothing to do with skill, it's just time.

And by time you mean better gear, a casual can be just as "skilled" as a hardcore player, most aren't due to the hardcore putting in more time thus having their priority/rotation down exactly and knowing what to do in encounters at all times but saying that no casual can ever beat a hardcore player in dps is stupid.

Ok, let me put it to you straight wolfpack. My most hardcore toon was a feral druid. Casual ferals I saw put in either agi gems, crit gems, haste gems, or when they DID do armor pen, they usually weren't epic gems. They might have had decent gear, but they didn't know to STACK arpen. Then, when I'd get into a raid, I would do 10k dps, and the other casual feral druids (some were fine in fights btw, they knew the mechanics) would do 6 tops.

It was because of itemization, I knew what to get and what to sacrifice to maximize dps, most casual players don't research that, and most CERTAINLY don't use a sim tool.

As for reading EJ for 3 hours.. that's hardly an exaggeration, have you ever theorycrafted on there or gone over large lengths of dps records to see which minute changes offered the highest damage increase? 3 hours isn't that big of a deal on EJ.

Couple final comments here.

1) I talk from a dps standpoint because that's primarily what I do, my pally and druid are both formidable tanks, and my priest and shaman can heal, but I like dps.

2) The way you belittle dps shows that you know far less than you purport to know. If dps isn't important, I'd like to see the replay of your raid with 5 tanks and 5 healers go kill putricide. I'll give up my point when you do it. DPS is just as important as healing and tanking, it's just often overlooked because it's more common.

3) I'm not talking about knowing stat caps, I'm talking about knowing how one stat affects others. For example, there is a certain point on a feral druid that STR is better than AGI (at least that used to be true before 4.0.1). There was a graph on EJ and a couple other places that showed at a certain level of crit, STR surpassed AGI because the 2 to 1 AP value won out over the 1 to 1 and crit boost. I got a certain piece of gear with a ton of crit when I was already near the crit cap, so I had to regem lots of my agi with str. I'd like to see the casual player that knows to do that and then goes and buys 800g worth of gems.

I don't know why you can't just accept that if you put more time into something, you will do it better. That's a common sense idea friend.

I harbor you no ill will and I would appreciate it if you stopped raging at me with names like jerk and casual hater. It doesn't help anything, if you disagree, post maturely why and we'll debate it. If you have suggestions, post em, but just insulting someone who has no problem with you just puts you in a bad light.

[Deleted]

^ I gotta agree with Rhaide. Why make things so complicated? Put effort into it or don't. Your call.

[Arrowstormen]

Some things seemed strange to me:
a) Your first paragraph is a rant against Blizzards idea of changing the game. Pretty much paints a very nice picture of you being a Vanilla-Lover AND a WotLK-Hater. [Also a casual-hater, but let's save that for later.]
b) You seem to not understand what hardcore and casual mean... in your first paragraph you describe something that fits to "hardcore". From then on, you seem to be under the impression that "hardcore" describes good players while "casual" describes bad players.
In truth, however, both terms only refer to the amount you play, not how well you play. [As an example, the top-raiders of the world take one evening to clear ICC+Ruby Sanctum, and then can stop playing for the rest of the week. That's 4hours per week spent in WoW, you can't get much more casual than that...]
c) There's not just "good" and "bad", there's lots of stuff between. While hardmodes don't really work for them, your solution doesn't help either.
d) Your suggestion results in 5 different types of gear per raid. Normal, Challenge, Challenge-Endboss, Hardmode, Hardmode-Endboss. They're trying to get away from stuff like that.
e) Splitting the player base in general is a horrible idea. Can totally understand why you are not working as a supervisor or anything alike.

i would say "this" if it wasnt for the fact that i wouldnt could write it that great way. well done with the arguments.

---------- Post added 2010-10-20 at 11:48 PM ----------

I take it you're a butthurt casual who didn't like that I suggested you MAYBE shouldn't get the best gear in the game for just showing up.... :O

pssst! i think you wrong! fall back in Shadowmeld!

[Alexandrra2012]

Don't forget that Blizzard is a business, with the final goal being to make money. Think of it this way, do you feel like the majority of people would prefer to play a game where they were consistently rewarded with newer items in a shorter amount of time? Or would the majority prefer to have to sink alot of time into a game where they may or may not upgrade their character very much? I understand that you may fall into the latter category, and that is fine. Ultimately, however, there are probably more people falling into the former, and so it behooves Blizz to adapt their product design to them. A few thousand satisfied "hardcore" individuals don't generate as much revenue as a few million "casuals." Just a simple fact.

[Chacmol]

I tend to hate these "casual vs. hardcore" threads because they all always turn into identical discussions. First people start to disagree with what hardcore means and what casual means. Then it always become an issue of what "casuals" deserve to get despite not playing as much as "hardcore players." Personally I feel that the terms casual and hardcore are the completely wrong terms to use. Casual and hardcore have very specific meanings and connotations and honestly it is impossible to "label" humans in such a simplistic fashion.

Now the general consensus of the community as to the difference between "hardcore" and "casual" is how much of the content (whether it be the ability to experience raids and boss or gear) they get to experience. The discrepancy is that people are trying to define "hardcore" and "casual" using 1 of 2 possible definitions. The first definition is that "hardcore" refers to those players who put a lot of time into the game (again the amount that distinguishes this is subjective) and "casuals" are those who don't put a lot of time into the game. This is the definition that holds most true to those words when used in the English Language. The second definition is what really complicates this issue. In the second definition "hardcore" means a good player and "casual" means a bad player. The problem with using both these definitions together is that you get stories of those "casual" players who are very good (skilled) players and for one reason or another don't play as often as the "hardcore" player. You get stories of the opposite as well. These two sides will never agree because really you can't divide humans into 2 distinct groups that way. There is a natural grey area that exists because humans can in a large variety of forms. Some people are exceptionally smart and can accomplish in 30 minutes, what it might take another to do in 3 hours (something like read EJ forums or parse logs and run simulations). So outside of actual time spent raiding Player A who happens to be very intelligent might seem less "hardcore" or more "casual" to Player B because he doesn't need to play as often. That is just one of many situations (Player A is bad with money so can't afford to regem as often as Player B is another situation) that showcases the problem with trying to label individual players as "hardcore" or "casual."

I think the true difference (and again this is still a generalization because with a player base of 12 million you can be sure to find an exception for almost every situation) between those players who in Vanilla, to a smaller extent in BC, were able to acquire the best gear and experience all the raids and those who simply weren't (and all the shades of grey in between the two extremes)is one not of skill or time invested but of attitude. Now I'm not talking about arrogance, although that can and is often times present. What I am talking about is the attitude in which the players approach the game. In Vanilla those players who killed Kel'thuzad (that small almost non-existent percentage of the wow player base)did so because they approached the game in such a way that eliminated all obstacles in their path outside of that implemented by the designers in terms of numbers (enrage timers) or mechanics (resistances, or 4 horseman comes to mind). Players and by definition their guilds policed themselves, bad players (skill wise) were removed from the raid or guild. Under-geared but skilled players where helped as much as possible (because you wanted the awesome player helping you in the raid as quick as possible). The game was less about gear and more about how you play it. It has been proven more than enough times that gear only makes you better when there is an equality in skill. The funny thing is that many people have a tendency to 1) over-exaggerate their skill or 2) over-exaggerate the discrepancy in gear. So what happens is that those who find themselves not getting to do all the cool raids and not getting all the amazingly awesome gear feel left out. We are a society of instant gratification. The idea that to get something you need to work towards it is almost gone from the WoW community.

If Guild A has adopted the attitudes needed to achieve those goals of clearing all the content and then go forth and put the effort required then they should be rewarded for it. Now if Guild B does not adopt that attitude, and then does not put the effort needed, why should they expect to be rewarded the same as Guild A. Essentially what many players are asking for is equal pay without equal work. In other words the high school dropout wants to be paid the 6 figure salary of a doctor with out putting in the 8+ years the doctor put in, in what insane world would that be considered okay? I think Blizzard has come as close as they can ever come to solving an unsolvable problem. There will always be those who are unhappy with their lot in the game, who feel they deserve more than what they have.

There is no game mechanic or blizzard rule that divides the community in such a way. When you create your first character ever on that day you buy WoW for the first time you have the same opportunities to experience 100% of the content that everybody else has. Any limitations you encounter that prevent you experiencing all the content are limitations created by you the player. Limitations created with every decision you make. I think Blizzards Cataclysm solution is as good as it will get. If you add a third level at that you are doing is adding an extra clear that those players you call "hardcore" will do. Because that challenging difficulty will be much easier with those epics from the normal mode, especially if the diff between the two is that the mechanics (less fire was one example used) are easier and the math stays the same.

[Dalien]

"skill required would be less. Less fires to stand in"

I fail to understand why the OP assumes casual = less skilled?

I deem myself "casual" because I'm married with kids and have a job to hold down, and because I don't rage if someone screws up and wipes a raid. Just because people choose to raid 'casually' doesn't mean they stand in fire or know less about the mechanics of an encounter or the mechanics of their class.

[madyaks1]

As long as you have people who play once a week, don't learn their class, but still cry to Blizz that "Hey I paid my money so I should see end game content" you aren't going to fix this.

No you pay to get into the "world of Warcraft", the time and effort that you put into it should be reflected.

I swear the everyone should see the LK mentality come from when little billy and joey played soccer, and everyone got medals because "you all did great, win or lose"


I have asked so many time before, whats wrong with earning something?