Ret: Mastery/Haste

[Badpaladin]

It's actually about as good as arp was, maybe slightly better.

[Nairobi]

It's actually about as good as arp was, maybe slightly better.

Beat me to it; Mastery, point for point, is subpar to ArP circa 3.3 for ret.

ArP was NEVER a DPS loss, its was simply LESS of a gain than haste or crit. It always boosted our damage, even though it only affected ~40% of it. Mastery is AT BEST a slight DPS increase, on average a net zero change over the filler that it would replace, and at worst, a loss in DPS.

Please, please, PLEASE stop staying that "it's good cause it feels good" or "i think its cool therefore its legit".

Some people come here to get class information, and you're pointing them down retard highway.

Any sentence regarding game mechanics or formula that starts with "now I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty sure..." is a good sign that the rest of the sentence isn't worth reading.

[Daisetsu]

Beat me to it; Mastery, point for point, is subpar to ArP circa 3.3 for ret.

Please, please, PLEASE stop staying that "it's good cause it feels good" or "i think its cool therefore its legit".

Some people come here to get class information, and you're pointing them down retard highway.

Any sentence regarding game mechanics or formula that starts with "now I haven't done the math, but I'm pretty sure..." is a good sign that the rest of the sentence isn't worth reading.

Did you really just say "Stop saying the way you want to play is fun, that's not what this game is about"? :P

[Badpaladin]

Yeah, Nairobi, you're right. I was giving Mastery too much credit by saying "maybe slightly better", hah.

Did you really just say "Stop saying the way you want to play is fun, that's not what this game is about"? :P

Nothing wrong with that. I can activate my account, log in and beat on the dummy(having a lot of fun mind you) untalented all I want, but if I say it's a DPS increase then it's a little off base.

[Daisetsu]

That's fine, but I'm sure if I came in and said "Yea, I like the ret mastery." Without mentioning any dps increase whatsoever in my post, he'd refer to me as one of those people pointing others down retard highway for voicing an opinion.. :P

[Nairobi]

That's fine, but I'm sure if I came in and said "Yea, I like the ret mastery." Without mentioning any dps increase whatsoever in my post, he'd refer to me as one of those people pointing others down retard highway for voicing an opinion.. :P

No, I'm not here to berate anyone's idea of fun. Like Bad said, if you enjoy something, more power to you.

My point was that I don't like people that misrepresent their idea of "fun" for "good". Playing in traffic might be fun to someone, but its probably not a good idea. There's more than enough misinformation on the interwebs, rather than spew more fallacies proclaimed as the "next big thing" without any material evidence, its better for the community to simply regard them for what they are: opinions.

And its THEORYcrafting...not OPIONIONcrafting.

[Martana]

the general consensus among opinionated ret paladin theorycrafters is that if you like ret's mastery you are a terrible player, apparently.

i'm of the opinion that if the stat that is supposed to make every class better at what they do does not in fact do so, it will be buffed until it is attractive. there's a lot of mastery on cata gear - if ret paladins all start reforging out of it for haste, the designers will know something's up.

[Nillo]

Its a pretty big deal, but its not an AVOID THIS STAT ON GEAR AT ALL COSTS deal like ArP was for retadins in 3.3.5

Atm it's even worse than arp was in 3.3.5

[Brashara]

I don't know why everyone's so worried about ret mastery. Just be happy its cool.
If mastery pans out horrible and its on all the gear and ret paladins can't compete in DPS, they'll buff our mastery OR they'll buff our moves.
If ret paladins are doing tons of DPS, they'll nerf our stats.
You guys seem to envision some kind of ret-hell where Hand of Light makes us lose DPS and all the mastery on gear drops ret paladins to doing 2k DPS and blizzard laughs at you instead of fixing it.

What i'm trying to say is, be happy its kinda fun. I'd rather them balance me around hand of light than 25% more frost damage or 25% more fire damage or 25% more arcane damage. Those abilities are boring.

Half of the classes are crying about not getting anything cool in the expansion and ret is whining about having a new toy.

If its a bad stat and we can't compete they'll just make TV hit harder or something.

The point i'm trying to make is that if it sucks and rets are doing 2k DPS they aren't going to leave us there. Just be happy we've got a FUN mastery thats unique and not something complete boring.

I fail to see how thats the retard highway. I never told anyone to forge for mastery or not for haste. I was just saying this seems to be a bit silly.

[Aramore]

The problem is Ret already has too much going to worry about an extra RNG element that doesn't give much of a DPS increase.

And if the only way to fix it is by uber buffing Templar's Verdict then PVP will be mental as we end up one shotting people just to balance the mastery for PVE which will then cause extra nerfs.

It's impossible to balance it to make it as effective as other secondary stats the way it stands.

[Brashara]

What i'm saying is ret can be balanced against being stuck with a lot of mastery they don't need VERY easily. Just buff other moves. Crusader Strike, for example. It didn't have to be TV, it could be anything. Ret doesn't have that much going on currently, we're just all new too it. Understandable that holy power could seem a bit overwhelming at the beginning but I don't think its that harder to work our rotation of

CS>Filler>CS>Filler>CS>TV
Art of War and Hand of Light are not 'overwhelming' to the player, we just aren't used to them.


Sub par damage is a legitimate grievance, but I don't think that 'too much going on' is a serious concern.

They could easily buff other moves as well. Crusader Strike or Judgement. Or, my personal favorite, they could buff SoT/Censure, increasing our holy damage done. Also exorcism, though that could easily lead to the same PvP problems as buffing TV.

[Aramore]

But none of those solve the problem of poor scaling with Mastery, they'd either have to buff the co-efficients of the other spell, further devaluing mastery, or keep buffing the base damage every patch, of which neither solution is particularly good.

All it would do is make mastery even less desirable and increase the complaints about how poor it is.

[Badpaladin]

All they have to do is turn mastery into Righteous Vengeance and we'd ALL BE HAPPY! Furthermore this would greatly increase the value of Inquisition, making the thread I created laughable.

[Brashara]

All they have to do is turn mastery into Righteous Vengeance and we'd ALL BE HAPPY! Furthermore this would greatly increase the value of Inquisition, making the thread I created laughable.

This would be REALLY cool.

[Nillo]

All they have to do is turn mastery into Righteous Vengeance and we'd ALL BE HAPPY! Furthermore this would greatly increase the value of Inquisition, making the thread I created laughable.

Righteous Vengeance with our abysmal crit ratings at level 85 wouldn't be all that great either /:

[Badpaladin]

I should probably clarify...mastery would increase the change and damage it deals, capped at like 25% or something. It would be great scaling at later tier levels.

[BDF]

If we do get a mastery that is pure holy damage and scales with Inquisition, I'd probably be sad for ret in pvp...with a larger chunk of our damage depending on inquisition.

[Thumos]

ATM all of the simulation models show that Haste>Crit>mastery, with combinations of current gear. That does not mean we should actively avoid mastery as it still provides a dps boost, it is still more beneficial to reforge mastery to other stats. If I had to guess, I'd say a month into cataclysm we'll see a rebuild of the ret paladin mastery, at least to some degree. Other stats are simply too much stronger than mastery for us and that is the sort of thing blizzard doesn't want.

The sad part is that we have known Mastery sucks for months and months now, yet there has not even been an acknowledgment from blizzard of our data.

---------- Post added 2010-11-13 at 03:28 AM ----------

The recent Hand of Light bug gave me an idea, and hopefully this bug is actually an attempt to do this but currently does the opposite. Every time an ability is used with Hand of Light powering it, one holy power should be generated in addition to Divine Purpose procs. I'm not sure how much this will really help but it seems like a nice boost.

[Deleted]

Haste also affects the mastery. more swings=more procchances. Not that you would care, hand of light is bollox.

[Nillo]

Haste also affects the mastery. more swings=more procchances. Not that you would care, hand of light is bollox.

While it increases the chances to proc it it also reduces the need for mastery due to the lower cs cd and more chance for AoW procs => more haste increases the chance, that the mastery doesn't proc on an empty gcd but rather on a gcd, where you can already use a high dps ability.

And that's one of the main issues with mastery - the more procs you get the less you need them further devaluing mastery , which means that even if they buff the proc chance it is very unlikely to significantly increase it's usefulness.