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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroAvix View Post
    Might want to mention possible archaeology items, especially Tyrande's Favorite Doll.
    As far as i know these Epic Archeology Items will take VERY VERY much time to farm.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Malic View Post
    As far as i know these Epic Archeology Items will take VERY VERY much time to farm.
    Irrelevant. A Pre-Raid Best In Slot should include it, with an optional alternative if necessary.
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  3. #23
    In that case is should be including BOE epics and crafted gear as well. In which case the list changes dramatically. To me this appears to be 'BiS heroic farmed gear', which is why I made the suggestions I did. If you include crafted gear and such then you need to change a whole lot of gear.

  4. #24
    I will optimize the list later tonight to fit harkys suggestions.
    But he is right. Every crafting proffesion got its own 359 epic items.

  5. #25
    All of which you could get "Pre-Raid", as this guide is. Might want to just list them and explain the means of acquiring, etc. Same with the BoE's/Archaeology items, the latter of which are account bound so very good for other 80s you might have, which you could note. Just keep the current list explaining these are the items you can get from heroics and justice points alone.

  6. #26
    This was my intention.
    I want fresh lvl85 priests to know which dungeons they should/must visit maybe before they spend all their JP at the vendor.

    If any1 wanna do a pre-raid list of craftable items etc. it would be cool.

    Edit: Ok everything should be up2date now. I cleared the enchants a bit and only the relevant ones are shown now.
    I made a list of the instances which includes the amount of gear pieces dropping there + not relevant instances you can skip.
    Last edited by Malic; 2010-11-29 at 10:49 PM.

  7. #27
    High Overlord Arrelliana's Avatar
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    I would go for heartsong for holy as a weapon enchant vs. power torrent. Power torrent is more suitable for disc.


    Enchanting: Enchant Weapon - Heartsong
    Reagents:
    Hypnotic Dust (9), Greater Celestial Essence (3), Heavenly Shard (3), Volatile Life (3)
    Permanently enchant a weapon to sometimes increase Spirit by 200 for 15 sec when casting spells. Requires a level 300 or higher item.

    Enchanting: Enchant Weapon - Power Torrent
    Reagents:
    Hypnotic Dust (14), Heavenly Shard (, Maelstrom Crystal (4)
    Permanently enchant a weapon to sometimes increase Intellect by 500 for 12 sec when dealing damage or healing with spells. Requires a level 300 or higher item.

    I have done some theorycrafting on these and have a few tips for cataclysm.

    Holy:
    I recommend Heartsong hands down. It is currently around 40~50mp5 more than the INT increase from power torrent.. Even if you time shadowfiend to hit right when the enchant procs heartsong still comes out 15-30mp5 ahead of power torrent. Heartsong is going to be a consistent regen buff that you don't have to monitor.

    Discipline:
    Here the case is pretty even. I will reccommend power torrent for disc (hot looking enchant for the cooler priest spec). It is very effective to use shadowfiend when PT procs as this actually surpasses the mp5 you get from heartsong's proc for discipline only. (holy has that silly spirit talent....<bias>). The raw difference between the 2 enchants is roughly ~10mp5. With CD management this will be the choice enchant at higher levels.

  8. #28
    @ OP and contributers thank you very much for compiling

    I've printed out and have it ready to go.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Arrelliana View Post
    Holy:
    I recommend Heartsong hands down. It is currently around 40~50mp5 more than the INT increase from power torrent.. Even if you time shadowfiend to hit right when the enchant procs heartsong still comes out 15-30mp5 ahead of power torrent. Heartsong is going to be a consistent regen buff that you don't have to monitor.
    That's pretty much a copy-paste from a EJ post which is incorrect. It's based off some odd assumptions. It can be seen here. That math is based on not having Replenishment, among other issues. At least 90% replenishment should be assumed in most good raid comps. It makes the difference in regen trivial while the gains from SP very noticeable regardless of how inconsistent they may be. In either case 15-30 MP5 difference is more than reasonable. This means that over the course of a 5 minute fight you will get 900-1800 mana difference. Rule of thumb for worthwhile changes in regen: Will you be able to cast additional spells within a normal fight duration? Heal is your cheapest spell. It costs 1853 mana. Best case scenario you wouldn't get enough mana to cast your cheapest spell. So unless you believe that you will never get a gain from the +116 average SP going Heartsong over PT is suboptimal.


    Edit-
    The Tailoring items to look at are Belt of the Depths and Breeches of Mended Nightmares. The Belt is a raw upgrade from the JP belt. The pants are odd. You get +19 Int, +129 Crit, +69 Haste, but lose 118 Spirit (reforging Crit -> Spirit and gemming properly). I absolutely don't see this as worth it as a pre-raid set at all. They would be a viable off-set piece once in T11, but the T11 legs have better overall stats. The Engineering helm is interesting. Gemmed (sans meta) it winds up as: 321 Int, 416 Spirit. Mask of Snow winds up as: 292 Int, 202 Spirit, 162 Haste. So it's +29 Int, +214 Spirit, -162 Haste. That makes it actually pretty amazing for starting gear. It's probably even better than the 359 T11 helm for general use.
    Last edited by harky; 2010-11-30 at 08:12 AM.

  10. #30
    Thanks for the list. Nice to get a look at these things well before needed.

    I can plan my leveling and such accordingly now.

  11. #31
    High Overlord Arrelliana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by harky View Post
    That's pretty much a copy-paste from a EJ post which is incorrect. It's based off some odd assumptions. It can be seen here. That math is based on not having Replenishment, among other issues. At least 90% replenishment should be assumed in most good raid comps. It makes the difference in regen trivial while the gains from SP very noticeable regardless of how inconsistent they may be. In either case 15-30 MP5 difference is more than reasonable. This means that over the course of a 5 minute fight you will get 900-1800 mana difference. Rule of thumb for worthwhile changes in regen: Will you be able to cast additional spells within a normal fight duration? Heal is your cheapest spell. It costs 1853 mana. Best case scenario you wouldn't get enough mana to cast your cheapest spell. So unless you believe that you will never get a gain from the +116 average SP going Heartsong over PT is suboptimal.
    I rechecked the math from the EJ post and I disagree with you harky. The data takes into account both procs with replenishment and rapture. Holy gets 9.1 mp5 from replenishment with Power Torrent proccing and Disc get 32.2 with replenishment and rapture proccing on CD. The only assumptions that were ignored were innervate usage/tide/HOH. Innervate would never be considered since it is factored from the druids mana pool. Shadowfiend usage was taken into account with the PT proc.

    The logic behind regen vs. throughput always has to take into account overhealing. If the proc contributes to your overhealing then it is wasted. The same logic can be applied to almost everything..I should never enchant spirit on any item because it wouldn't allow me to cast another spell. All of the effects are cumulative and can't be looked at as isolated scenario. I use the same argument when dealing with applicants who are missing an enchant.. The common response is well the enchant really doesn't matter that much..if that was the case why not skip enchants/gemming alltogether?

    The purpose of the post was to show that heartsong is superior to power torrent for regen for holy specced priests only. Many current models for the first tier of raiding are going with intellect and spirit as a 1:1 ratio for stat weighting purposes. The enchants are very close to this with PT @ 115 int and Heartsong at 106. With the current state of holy regen I think that regen trumps throughput for the enchants/gems etc.

    I guess I had the biggest disagreement with:
    Rule of thumb for worthwhile changes in regen: Will you be able to cast additional spells within a normal fight duration?
    Once again..with this logic you would always pick throughput over regen for enchants/gemming etc. I think you need to look at the state as a whole..if you are oom during the fight and have exhausted your tools using power torrent then going with heartsong would not be a suboptimal choice.

    Edit: Not trying to argue just enjoy intelligent conversation on theory even if it is opposing viewpoints.

  12. #32
    Of course you're trying to argue. You've just been taught that 'arguing' is a bad thing, which it isn't.

    I went over the math in that post a few times, but I'm still finding errors in it. The 70 number is the only number that makes sense, which is with no cooldown stacking and no replenishment. The rest doesn't follow. The 15-30 number is a typical rule of thumb.

    As far as the last bit you're trying to argue for a slippery slope, which is in this case a fallacy. Of course you wouldn't pick throughput over regen at all times. The issue here is large changes, not small ones. Weapon enchants are a large change, gemming strategies are large changes, gearing priorities are large changes, etc. So for instance would changing priority from Int > Spirit to Spirit > Int gems give you a worthwhile regen gain?

    Let's assume you want to activate 5 red sockets, 2 blue sockets and 2 yellow sockets.
    Int > Spirit = 5x +40 Int, 2x +20 Int/Spirit, 2x +20 Int/XXX = 280 Int, 40 Spirit, 40 XXX
    Spirit > Int = 5x +20 Int/Spirit, 2x +40 Spirit, 2x +20 Spirit/XXX = 100 Int, 220 Spirit, 40 XXX

    So you're looking at trading 180 Int for 180 Spirit. Is this going to be noticeably more regen? No. Is it going to be noticeably more throughput? Yes. Int > Spirit in this case will be better.

    On the other hand if you're comparing two pieces of gear. One is Spirit/Haste and one is Mastery/Haste. Let's say 168 of each stat. So in this case you're looking at 168 Spirit vs 168 Mastery. Is 168 Spirit a noticeable increase in regen? Yes. Is 168 Mastery a noticeable increase in throughput? Yes. Is Regen more important than Throughput? Yes. Spirit > Mastery in this case will be better.

    The problem with slippery slopes is you're comparing a small difference of something like +15-30 MP5 on the enchant choice where you're actually trading one thing for another. +30 MP5 traded for +116 SP (+127 buffed) in this case. Now let's say the enchant is just +30 MP5. If you're not enchanting at all you get Nothing, while if you enchant you get Something. Is Something better than Nothing? Yes. You should enchant. The problem is of course that the Int enchant is giving pretty decent regen on its own. So when you compare the two you're looking at the difference, not the total. So if you had say a +130 Haste enchant, would that be better than +106 avg Spirit? I would say no. Because you are not subtracting the Int regen from the Spirit regen the Regen gain becomes noticeable and better than the throughput gain from +130 Haste. Thus the generalized priority of Int > Spirit > Haste > Mastery. Because an equal size of Int and Spirit is trading good regen and high throughput for just good regen the regen difference becomes trivialized. When comparing Haste, or Mastery there is no regen gain so the regen difference is not trivial.

  13. #33
    A smidge off topic but I was wondering if for tyrandes favorite doll if during the CD it will still store mana and you just can't release it again, or if it won't start storing mana until the CD is up? I my inclination is with only a 1 min CD it wouldn't store mana right away, but I am not sure about this. Seems like the way that works would change how useful it is which is why I bring it up

  14. #34
    High Overlord Arrelliana's Avatar
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    I guess I would be better served to say BIS throughput vs. BIS Regen as the generally I have always looked at gear slots in this light. A good example would be the old double solace. Great bis regen trinkets vs. the Scale and althor's which were much greater throughput (the proc off althor's alone was a good nudge). I would like to see the OP in this situation keep in mind that there will gear that is better for regen and better for throughput and then the middle of the road general purpose approach.

    My personal opinion is for holy you will have to go for the bis regen approach for the first tier of raiding until you start to get a full set of epics in order to inflate your mana pool enough to sustain throughput gemming/enchanting and trinkets. For disc PT is obviously the bis enchant based on the regen mechanics of discipline healing.

  15. #35
    The thing is with things like Solace vs Althors existed in the old system. If something like Solace popped up again it would be just 'BiS' with no other qualifiers. Remember that Heroic Solace is better than Heroic Rainsong. Rainsong is +285 Spirit and a (mostly) useless haste proc. Solace is +144 Int and +288 Spirit. 258 ilevel > 346 ilevel. The change from Int to Spirit has made this type of debate mostly useless now since it really only occurs on trinkets and gems. The other items it's simply not debatable anymore. However, since by far our best throughput stat is raw Intellect and that's also roughly equal regen to our best regen stat the discussion falls flat.

    Look at something like Fall of Mortality at 363 Int and ~442 Spirit. Now look at Jar of Ancient Remedies. If you don't use it it's 588 Spirit. If you do it's a 302 MP5 cooldown and assuming let's say an eight second buildup it works out to ~420 Spirit. That's a lot of spirit if you don't use it! However, it's also higher MP5 if you do use it on cooldown. That means the throughput trinket is actually 22 Spirit higher and you're pitting 302 MP5 vs 363 Int, which is a flat out bad trade. So the ultra sexy pure regen trinket? It's lower regen than the throughput trinket of the same tier unless you have incredible luck on Mana Tide not corresponding to Fall's proc and not occurring after you've used the Jar there's nothing to make up that gap.

    That said this is purely academic. There are only two worthwhile trinkets for healers in T11.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by harky View Post
    The Engineering helm is interesting. Gemmed (sans meta) it winds up as: 321 Int, 416 Spirit. Mask of Snow winds up as: 292 Int, 202 Spirit, 162 Haste. So it's +29 Int, +214 Spirit, -162 Haste. That makes it actually pretty amazing for starting gear. It's probably even better than the 359 T11 helm for general use.
    The Engineering Cogwheels are unique-equipped.

  17. #37
    Even with some imperfections, thanks for taking the time. =]
    “The only real failure in life is not to be true to the best one knows.”- Buddha

  18. #38
    I am Murloc! Fenixdown's Avatar
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    Something that I notice from this best in slot list.

    -One item has crit on it.
    -Six (seven if you go MH/OH) have mastery.

    Given how holy's mastery works, wouldn't having crit be more beneficial? Haste is fairly self-explanatory, but the emphasis on mastery seems somewhat confusing to me. Crit totals, even with intellect totals being as high as they will be at 85, would seem to be even lower than they were in 3.0 Naxx epics (even focusing crit, the highest I got was about 25%).

    I could understand wanting a high mastery total for discipline. However, holy's seems more like a side benefit than a game-breaking component to our effectiveness in our design. Is this list simply because there is just such a lack of crit gear, or is this because mastery just happens to work out better in the long run?

  19. #39
    High Overlord Arrelliana's Avatar
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    Mastery for holy is a direct throughput increase without an increased mana cost (more mileage for your cast). Haste is so very important to throughput and reaching those soft caps for pw:shield and a 6 tick renew are just major milestones (a 6 tick renew is a huge throughput increase considering hpm).

    Crit is not a reliable throughput stat for heals in most cases. One advantage of crit is that it increases throughput without an increased mana cost. There have been several attempts to justify crit above haste etc. and it rarely if ever has been proven to be more advantageous for priests. There was a particularly good EJ thread on crit and DA procs vs. spellpower and spellpower always ended up ahead.

    It just boils down that crit is generally the last stat to itemize for vs. the other stats. With reforging you would always choose to reforge out of crit into a more useful stat such as spirit/haste/or mastery.

  20. #40
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    Thanks

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