No i'm not a Vanilla Raider - And i'm damn glad i'm not.

[Kalyyn]

Eh? Wha? Didn't have recount? Well, that's true I suppose, but there were damage meters.

I do remember there being damage meters (I didn't have one until BC) but what I meant was that it wasn't like it is now, where you can have the shittiest awareness in the group and die on every fight, but as long as you top meters, most guilds will kiss your ass and call you amazing as you're being ressed for the 30th wipe on blood council.

For many raiders, all they care about anymore is raw numbers, and to hell with survivability and raid utility.

[ramennoodleking]

Anyone who played vanilla knows that wrath+ is infinitely better in terms of advancements they've made in playability and appeal. Even the way you can get into raids quicker is amazing, it allows guilds who may lose core members to fill up spots with relative ease.

However, what the wrath junkies don't understand was that vanilla was, indeed, harder in terms of finishing late content. Why? Because you couldn't just spam heroics to get geared, you had to actually gear up tier by painful tier. And with 40 people, it wasn't uncommon in a non hardest of the hardcore guilds to lose several people every couple months to RL

[Blightrose]

People will always be nostalgic.

I promise u that in one year all the Wotlk haters will be saying "God, i miss Wotlk-raiding".

I promise you they won't.

[Dezrow]

Razorgore, Vael, Chromaggus, Nefarian, C'thun, Thaddius, Heigan, Loatheb and hte four horsemen.

All theese had inovative and new mechanics within standards of todays raids

Could not have said it better myself. The way things have progressed, YES the raids are more complicated BUT, the original harcore vanilla players could adapt a lot better than people who were new to raiding and this is the reason.

Fight A:(Vanilla) Boss uses an ability called Living Bomb. random player gets living bomb and must run out of raid and die because when living bomb goes away you explode and kill anything around you.

Fight B:(vanilla) Bosses uses ability called burning adrenaline. Random player gets BA and must run away from raid. once away from raid dps as hard as you can until you die. Reason being when burning adrenalin goes away you blow up and kill anything around you.



Now there are lots of bosses, and mobs in raids nowadays that use a basic mechanic like this, but maybe with a twist of sort.but when it comes to explaining the fight in newer raids for the first time a guild who has seen and dealt with a mechanic like this before will be able to react a lot quicker and more efficiently than a guld who say has never seen boss fights A and B from vanilla, so know what is going to happen in the fight but might not know exactly what they are looking for or the best way to react when in a certain position when said debuff happens.

These are just examples. If you raided from Vanilla to BC you saw a lot of more complex versions of old mechanics in the BC raids, and the same is true with WotLK, you saw more complex versions of mechanics that you have already seen. With that said it is easy to see why people make the assumption that a classic raider is more skilled that a new raider. They may not be more skilled but they have seen a lot of the raid mechanics used nowadays before, whether its the exact same or a combination of mechanics they have seen and have dealt with before.

[Deleted]

I did always pvp and didnt do any raids at all back then, so cant say anything about it, but i can say something about the ppl.
In Vanilla i had respect for top raiders.
In TBC i had respect for top raiders.
In Wrath i somehow dont care at all for top raiders and their gear and achieves.

[Deleted]

Damnit, Vanilla was so good..

Not so much whiners as today.

No way honestly back in vanilla everyone had something to whine about, the amount of Horde QQ about Paladins and Fear Ward was sickening, the same with Alliance about Shamans and racials, all classes were whining because... well 3/4 of all available specs were non-viable end game, the poor itemization, the fact that not everyone could see end game content etc.

That's why vanilla was better, the whining was more varied. :P

Jokes aside, I feel for the OP, not because he missed out on vanilla, but what he has to put up with and I'm a vanilla raider.

[Lutharr the Dead n Damned]

Vanilla was awesome
TBC was perfect
Wrath is/was faceroll easymode.
Cata will be? I am hoping they can top the perfection that was TBC.

[Metarra]

Players who participated in boss kills in BWL+ were good players. If a player participated in a boss kill in BWL+, you KNEW they were atleast a good player. Now any blind, dumb, and deaf retard can go into ICC, not know wtf is going on, and bosses magically die. Because ICC, the endgame content of WotLK, is easy. HLK25 isn't as bad as people make it out to be. The problem is, you have all these mediocre players making it to HLK25, because the content before it is a joke. In Vanilla, mediocre players didn't make it past the first few bosses in AQ40 or Naxx40. Mediocre players never made it to C'Thun. Heck, good players didn't even make it to Kel'Thuzad, only the best of the best. If someone had a Kel'Thuzad kill, you knew they were badass. Not so with people wearing Light of Dawn. The accomplishment in comparison just isn't as epic.

Every single boss in each raid instance in Vanilla was an accomplishment. Every boss in Vanilla was a challenge. WotLK raids are more complex? WHAT the fuck are you smoking?

Where in the game is there ANYTHING like having a hunter kite a Son of Hakkar at the EXACT right time to then have it die and poison everyone in the raid at the EXACT right time before Blood Siphon.

Don't EVER talk about short enrage timers until you've done Vaelastrasz at lvl 60. Where in the game is there ANYTHING like knowing the first 3 tanks in a tank rotation have a short time to live and WILL die from of Burning Adrenaline. Don't EVER talk about RNG unless you've experienced all your healers get Burning Adrenaline first. Do you realized they dumbed down even Cleaves? Chain cleaves don't even exist anymore. Cleave: Cleave attack that hits for 2k. This is a chain cleave, so if positioning is poor it can chain to the entire raid, even to behind him. It is critical that nobody be within approximately 10 yards of the main tank for this reason. Offtanks should be generating threat far enough from the MT to avoid chaining the cleave, but close enough to slide into place when BA hits the MT.

Don't EVER talk about kiting unless you've experienced kiting Razorgore dragon adds at lvl 60. In ICC you kite a slime that runs like 60% slower than you. On Razorgore, 4 hunters kited 3-4 dragon adds EACH and AT THE SAME TIME that ran just as fast as they did. The excitement of getting chased by 4 dragons hellbent on 1 shotting you is an experience you missed out on. Sucks to be you. There are more tank and spanks in WotLK than in Vanilla and TBC combined.

World of Warcraft has improved tremendously in many areas since Vanilla. Challenging raid encounters is not one of them. However, everyone now gets a chance to experience what is now considered end-game content. Do I want Vanilla back? The raids, yes, everything else hell no.

On a side note. Many, many players keybound their abilities and moved with their mouse in Vanilla. Just as many people now click their abilities and turn with their keyboard. Assuming people didn't keybind and mouse-move in Vanilla is pure ignorance.

I'm not going to repeat what EVERYONE has said about the amount of addons available that tell you what to do and how to do it these days. Comparing Vanilla raids to WotLK raids is like comparing Cave men with sticks and stones to the Special Olympics with wheelchairs and crutches.

[Kalyyn]

I promise you they won't.

I already miss WotLK raiding. Such good memories...

[Cel]

It's a two way street. Stop trying to paint Classic players as paragons of virtue with the light of heaven shining out of their every orifice.

People like this are so short sighted.

You do realize that most people don't paint classic players as players of virtue and awesomeness. You realize that players that do this are just as much of a troll (well, maybe a little bit less, but close) as the guy that started this topic?

Playing in vanilla makes you a self entitled ass just as much as starting in Wrath makes you a better player because the game is technically 'better' now. Its a statement that is not only generalizing, but just plain foolish and wrong.

Classic was great, it was new and exciting and for the time period was what made me love the game and stick with it for 6 years.
TBC was great, it progress lore, mechanics, and added even more stuff in.
Wrath, as to be expected, was fun as well. It only makes sense that as time progresses and things move forward, that the game would advance and get better. This isn't a matter of question, just simple logic that most everyone should be able to sort out.

All that said, that doesn't diminish the fun of Classic. Classic WoW was still great! If it sucked, we wouldn't have had TBC and Wrath. Where does this thought process get so complicated that so many people fail at it.

Classic > Wrath and Wrath > Classic by means of 'fun factor' are nothing more then opinions and no matter how set you are in yours, you can't argue it as fact and that's what we are seeing so much of here. Its so freaking stupid.
This whole post was started by the game is better now then it was, using specific things in game to argue his point. If the OP is trying to state that the game is more fleshed out now then it was back then, then ok. Umm... Duh? But it is quite clear that isn't his argument. His argument (mainly derived from his last paragraph) very much comes across as "Vanilla was so crap cause you don't have what we do now and therefore I am glad I didn't play then. Shut up classic players", which is nothing more then BS. For its time, when WoW was first released. Everything we had then (which you newer players, now termed wrath babies, I guess) that you take for granted made the game awsome. Not only is this undeniable by the fact of the games success, but the fact that he is trying to argue this never having even played during this time is just absurd. Its either a troll, or a moron (often one in the same).

When it does come to people talking about vanilla with nostalgia, why is it such a big deal? Yes, some people get overboard, but all it really is, is reminiscing. Nothing wrong with that and in all fairness, Vanilla, as been stated many times before, was great for its day. No other games could really touch it. Specially no other MMOs. (I came from FFXI and it was like going from night to day). Just leave these elderly alone and let them enjoy their memories. Thats one of the great things about memories. If someone is actually trying to argue the mechanically and visually and all that other BS was better then Vanilla, thats just as absurd as this post. Ignore it and move on. But your generalizations are just as stupid and asinine as the original post.

Anyways... Sorry for the rant, but I'm tired of hearing myself called a self entitled, self absorbed prick that wants all other players looking up to me just cause I liked vanilla. I have played since nearly the release of the game and from the very beginning only have played for the objective of fun. It has been successful in this in every revision of the game save for me, my time through SSC (quit for a little bit cause i just didn't like the place). Vanilla obviously wasn't crap or people wouldn't have stuck around.

I still can't figure out why people still argue over all this. Its just opinion and what one person liked better wont be what another one does. I had issues with vanilla, TBC, and wrath. They all had certain aspects I sorta hated. But I stayed quite cause the greatness of the game far outweighed the problems I had with it and stuck with it. This will be different for each and every person. Why the hell is this a debate?


Anyways, I'm done with this one. I'm probably speaking to deaf ears anyways. I tend to post walls of text. Just gotta close up with:

BTW, you are mixing up skill and talent as the earlier posted pointed out. This, unlike the rest of this thread, is not opinion. Its just simple fact... *sigh*

Skill
–noun
1.
the ability, coming from one's knowledge, practice, aptitude, etc., to do something well: Carpentry was one of his many skills.
2.
competent excellence in performance; expertness; dexterity: The dancers performed with skill.
3.
a craft, trade, or job requiring manual dexterity or special training in which a person has competence and experience: the skill of cabinetmaking.
4.
Obsolete . understanding; discernment.
5.
Obsolete . reason; cause.


Talent
–noun
1.
a special natural ability or aptitude: a talent for drawing.
2.
a capacity for achievement or success; ability: young men of talent.
3.
a talented person: The cast includes many of the theater's major talents.
4.
a group of persons with special ability: an exhibition of watercolors by the local talent.
5.
Movies and Television . professional actors collectively, esp. star performers.
6.
a power of mind or body considered as given to a person for use and improvement: so called from the parable in Matt. 25:14–30.
7.
any of various ancient units of weight, as a unit of Palestine and Syria equal to 3000 shekels, or a unit of Greece equal to 6000 drachmas.
8.
any of various ancient Hebrew or Attic monetary units equal in value to that of a talent weight of gold, silver, or other metal.
9.
Obsolete . inclination or disposition.



Do People not graduate High School or something these days? The internet is so informative and so very polluted with crap at the same time. Its ever so frustrating.

[BlackWJack]

vanilla raiders have a better understanding of what it takes to raid successfully and they have much more patience than people who did not raid in vanilla therefore they are better raiders and I have yet to be proven wrong.

[Radaney]

3: No boss had a really intricate mechanic. MC? One big add you tank and spank that spawns a bunch of adds. BWL? Like any typical dragon encounter. NAXX? Majority are again tank and spank with an add or two here and there. You name me any encounter in Vanilla that even came up to the standards of some bosses in SWP or some of the Ulduar Hardmodes.

MC: Garr, Must Banish. Baron Geddon, Insane bombs. Shazzrah, Arcane explosion will rape you if you don't have good positioning.
BWL: Razorgore, very unique fight. Vaelastrasz, similiary with Baron Geddon a very unique fight. Nefarian, one of the most unique fights in the entire game.
Naxx: bosses were hardly tank and spank. Thaddius, Heigan, Horseman, Razuvius, Sapphiron, Kel'Thuzard.
ZG: Hakkar, unique fight.

etc.

[Deleted]

This guy is obviously just jelous and nothing in the world - pixel or real - is going to change the fact: YOU SNOZE YOU LOSE sucker :-D

I know its fun to call it nostalgia and what ever - and that might seem more real if you're 15 and this represent a 3rd of your life. But no; I just had more fun back in BC and Vanilla. Thats the truth of the matter and just accept that its subjective and its only my opinion.

[Deleted]

guess im lucky had the vanilla experiance but never started raiding till TBC up to T5 content, i agree with the TBC raiders having the best knowlage it was a step up from vanilla but not the faceroll of wrath, ppl who played vanilla and TBC will deffo have the upper hand compared to wrath kids in cata

[Nastified]

People always player-hatin' on content they never experienced.

Tell ya what:

Take 40 of your best friends. Form a raid. Now go run an instance you've never seen anything but videos on, i.e. AQ or original Naxx.

What, that doesn't sound too hard?

Ok, now go do it without Deadly Boss Mods, or Clique, or Grid. Or a 30% buff. Or vendor welfare gear. Or overpowered dps.

Right? Welcome to vanilla.

[Diaxx]

TBC was where all the good players came from.

[qwerty81]

I'm not going to repeat what EVERYONE has said about the amount of addons available that tell you what to do and how to do it these days. Comparing Vanilla raids to WotLK raids is like comparing Cave men with sticks and stones to the Special Olympics with wheelchairs and crutches.

Lmao!

[Truesight]

People always player-hatin' on content they never experienced.

Tell ya what:

Take 40 of your best friends. Form a raid. Now go run an instance you've never seen anything but videos on, i.e. AQ or original Naxx.

What, that doesn't sound too hard?

Ok, now go do it without Deadly Boss Mods, or Clique, or Grid. Or a 30% buff. Or vendor welfare gear. Or overpowered dps.

Right? Welcome to vanilla.

Well, to be honest, Clique and Grid weren't really necessary at 60 because HealBot literally healed FOR YOU. You just had to show up and it chose the best heals for the best people at the best times. Til Blizzard broke it =P

[Deleted]

Is your opinion.:>

I think you are one of that 5% of the players that doesn't agree with that. which mainly exists out of wrath loving horrible players and players that like the smell in the morning of melting internet cables after a raid the previous night.

[Tyril]

1: not much to utilize back in Vanilla..you stand and DPS Heal Tank..simple as not many Cooldowns or procs that needed utilizing

2: The reason only a few people saw the end of naxx was because the place was too damn hard...blizzard have stated this before

3: No boss had a really intricate mechanic. - try 4HM, Twin Emps, Chromaggus and Nefarian....maybe not that hard when u look at some TBC stuff but still hard enough to wipe to if people were not awake.

4: there was no need for theory craft...you spammed stuff in Vanilla there was no such BiS Set up for gear...you worked through the tiers that was it.

5: No need to juggle stats in Vanilla due to you basically being spoon fed the gear you needed..IE armor = 8 piece sets..leaving rings weapons trickets neck and cloak...which revolved around Tank/healer/caster/melee...everyone fit into one of those sub groups.




I agree with Diaxx, TBC is where you see the good raiders come into the game and some of the vanilla ones that managed to make it into/past AQ