[TV] Doctor Who

[Keile]

He is the Doctor “Never cruel or cowardly. Never give up, never give in.” He is a healer and wiseman and if he is gonna be dark and do damage than it will be the Valeyard.

Would be interesting to see an arc leading into Valeyards creation. I imagine it as something along the lines of the meta crisis incident (where 10's hand regenerated into a copy) where somehow more of his...negative...thoughts end up forming the new being instead.

10's copy was a snapshot of the person he was at the time of the hand being cut off (which is why he was darker than "our" 10 who had been changed a lot by Rose/Martha/Donna), so should something like this happen when the Doctor is in a dark part of his life...and this copy doesn't have someone around maybe to lead him back to his path....viola Valeyard arc.

Basically I'm really starting to think they should have saved 10's regenerating hand trick for later use as how the Valeyard came to be.

[Deleted]

List of eps that used "time travel" to solve the crisis:

The pandorica opens / Big bang


You could make a case for The wedding of river song, impossible astronaut, and day of the moon, but that's 5 (tops) out of 44ish eps.

You forget the one episode where the phrase "timey wimey" comes from ("Blink") which was all about using time travel to solve the problem. And that episode was awesome. One could say, there's no problem with Time Travel as a plot device, but I agree when people say it shouldn't be used as a silver bullet or magic wand waving fix all.

[Shockeye]

Yes, because there are laws. There are Laws of Time. Once upon a time there were people in charge of those laws, but they died. They all died. Do you know who that leaves? Me! It's taken me all these years to realize the Laws of Time are mine, and they will obey me!

That's the Doctor being arrogant and threatening in anger. The Timelords learned to harness great powers to engage in time travel but they do not, nor never did, control the laws of physics or reality. They learned to work with them in new and incredible ways, but they don't control the nature of the multiverse. The Timelords are also not the only species to have time travel. The Daleks, Vardans, Sontarans, Osirians, Borad, Humans... The Timelords do not control how these other species travel in time.

The Doctor hated the laws of the Timelords, always felt they were arrogantly self-serving and could be bent at will to achieve an agenda. He hated their law of non-interference when they had the power to do good and opted to sit back and do nothing (except when it benefited their own selves). When the Doctor rages about laws, that's the source of his rage, that laws do nothing good.

[icausewipes]

You forget the one episode where the phrase "timey wimey" comes from ("Blink") which was all about using time travel to solve the problem. And that episode was awesome. One could say, there's no problem with Time Travel as a plot device, but I agree when people say it shouldn't be used as a silver bullet or magic wand waving fix all.

They were pointing out smith using time as a way to end a crisis.

That's the Doctor being arrogant and threatening in anger. The Timelords learned to harness great powers to engage in time travel but they do not, nor never did, control the laws of physics or reality. They learned to work with them in new and incredible ways, but they don't control the nature of the multiverse. The Timelords are also not the only species to have time travel. The Daleks, Vardans, Sontarans, Osirians, Borad, Humans... The Timelords do not control how these other species travel in time.

The Doctor hated the laws of the Timelords, always felt they were arrogantly self-serving and could be bent at will to achieve an agenda. He hated their law of non-interference when they had the power to do good and opted to sit back and do nothing (except when it benefited their own selves). When the Doctor rages about laws, that's the source of his rage, that laws do nothing good.

I used that quote, because you mention there should be some type of laws.

I appreciate that Smith's entire run was a huge set up of timelines overlapping, cycling back on themselves after shooting off into the future and overall played with a lot of time travel concepts, but it wasn't done *well*. Primarily because there are no established rules, the plots always have an easy out for explaining cliffhangers or mysteries. But it was something that a show about a time traveler needed to do, to really play with the potentials, implications, possibilities and so forth of being able to travel anywhere in time and space.

Were there rules, it'd be a lot more compelling, but as it was the whole thing was contrived. So in the absence of rules for time travel I'd personally prefer they limit the capability back to what it was, a method of going anywhere for the facilitation of a story. The reason I advocate some established rules is that it gives a framework for writers to build in, for fans to theorise on and basically play along, it gives boundaries which mean risks.

The timelords are gone (for now) and the rules are his to see fit.

[Shockeye]

Laws of a society do not equal the laws of physics. The Doctor has always made his own rules and really isn't one to follow laws, but he is still bound by the laws of reality, which he gleefully pushes but still follows.

[Khime]

Laws of a society do not equal the laws of physics. The Doctor has always made his own rules and really isn't one to follow laws, but he is still bound by the laws of reality, which he gleefully pushes but still follows.

Do you happen to have a definitive list of which 'laws of time' are based on the laws of physics and reality, and which ones were based on the Time Lords enforcing their own ideas of how time travel is supposed to work?

[icausewipes]

Do you happen to have a definitive list of which 'laws of time' are based on the laws of physics and reality, and which ones were based on the Time Lords enforcing their own ideas of how time travel is supposed to work?

That a pretty good question. I might have to dig deep, but they have indirectly interfered. In the reboot Rose caused a time thingy in Father's Day.

DOCTOR: When we met, I said travel with me in space. You said no. Then I said time machine.
ROSE: It wasn't some big plan. I just saw it happening and I thought, I can stop it.
DOCTOR: I did it again. I picked another stupid ape. I should've known. It's not about showing you the universe. It never is. It's about the universe doing something for you.
ROSE: So it's okay when you go to other times, and you save people's lives, but not when it's me saving my dad.
DOCTOR: I know what I'm doing, you don't. Two sets of us being there made that a vulnerable point.
ROSE: But he's alive!
DOCTOR: My entire planet died. My whole family. Do you think it never occurred to me to go back and save them?
ROSE: But it's not like I've changed history. Not much. I mean he's never going to be a world leader. He's not going to start World War Three or anything.
DOCTOR: Rose, there's a man alive in the world who wasn't alive before. An ordinary man. That's the most important thing in creation. The whole world's different because he's alive.

[Skandulous]

Laws of a society do not equal the laws of physics. The Doctor has always made his own rules and really isn't one to follow laws, but he is still bound by the laws of reality, which he gleefully pushes but still follows.

he cause cracks in time that were slowly eating away the whole universe back to nothing then he re creates the big bang to bring it all back i don't know what rules he is really bound by.

[Arlee]

Aside from the Rose episode, which exists to show why you can't, I don't think the Doctor has ever gone back in his time stream which I think is the major rule which doesn't come from the Timelords. You could sort of say the whole thing with the moment was crossing his time stream, but that's sort of the power of the moment which made that all possible.

[Deleted]

Aside from the Rose episode, which exists to show why you can't, I don't think the Doctor has ever gone back in his time stream which I think is the major rule which doesn't come from the Timelords. You could sort of say the whole thing with the moment was crossing his time stream, but that's sort of the power of the moment which made that all possible.

11 does it pretty casually actually. Like taking River on a date twice on the same night in the same place but in a different point in his time stream and accidentally stumbling into the wrong TARDIS. It's in the short videos someone posted last page or two. Unless you mean strictly influencing his past time stream by changing events.

[Shockeye]

Do you happen to have a definitive list of which 'laws of time' are based on the laws of physics and reality, and which ones were based on the Time Lords enforcing their own ideas of how time travel is supposed to work?

That is an awesome question!
Without doing research, I'm not sure if the show has ever really explored that topic too much. The Vardans used a somewhat different method of time travel in that they transform themselves into pure energy and travel that way, and the Sontarans have "osmic projection" which is a sort of duration-limited projection into the future only.

As Doctor Who is a science fiction show, one must really assume that the science part has bearings in reality, elsewise it's more magic/fantasy creation. So to that end, the theoretical science behind time travel and how the laws of physics play into that must, by default, exist in the Doctor Who milieu. Of course we cannot (yet) time travel, but there are reams of peer-reviewed papers out there discussing the theory, how it could and must work if it were to be possible. As a sci-fi creation of course Doctor Who can extrapolate from there and embellish, but the best part of science fiction is pushing the boundaries of physical laws but not not breaking them.

Would be an interesting bit of research, comparing the time traveling situations of Doctor Who against the existing theoretical physics we have in the real scientific community.

Cool question.

[Kelimbror]

As Doctor Who is a science fiction show, one must really assume that the science part has bearings in reality, elsewise it's more magic/fantasy creation.

Not necessarily. Science Fiction simply has principles explained in scientific theory..as in, it has to use scientific explanations for what happens. It doesn't mean it has to be real theory, or real laws, merely that they use science as a vehicle for explanation. Most science fiction dating back to forever has made up zany things then explained it away with scientific sounding jargon.

None of this detracts from what they are doing because it isn't real. Science fictions usually grounds itself in concepts related to things we know, but is not controlled by it. Whereas fantasy has free reign to do anything 'just because'. Even then, some fantasy works hold to rigid laws within their own right. The overall point being that laws that govern time/space/reality in any work is only controlled by that work. What I find interesting is how close the show has come to crossing the line into magic, but giving some explanation to keep it in the realm of sci fi.

Like the 'witches' and their 'magic' with Tennant or the quasi religious god/devil interactions Tennant and Smith had in their episodes. This has happened in other works to great effect...something like Brotherhood of the Wolf comes to mind which by all accounts is a traditional Werewolf story on the surface, but has some very concrete reality underneath.

[Khime]

As Doctor Who is a science fiction show, one must really assume that the science part has bearings in reality, elsewise it's more magic/fantasy creation.

Is Doctor Who truly science fiction, though? A lot of episodes seem to treat time travel, the TARDIS itself, the sonic screwdriver, and other bits of 'science' as more akin to magic than anything else. With the number of things Matt Smith managed to get his sonic to do, it might as well have had a glittering star on the end with pixie dust trailing after it. Heck, in one of the unreleased scenes he even told Amy he was a "Space Gandalf".

[Kelimbror]

Heck, in one of the unreleased scenes he even told Amy he was a "Space Gandalf".

Ah...classic. I also like Matt's adventures with his Badger puppet that Charlie gave him. That badger and the touch game sounds like the set during that time was zany.

[Arlee]

11 does it pretty casually actually. Like taking River on a date twice on the same night in the same place but in a different point in his time stream and accidentally stumbling into the wrong TARDIS. It's in the short videos someone posted last page or two. Unless you mean strictly influencing his past time stream by changing events.

Was that an actual episode or just short? I miss those a lot because I can't see youtube at work and I often forget at home ><

Is Doctor Who truly science fiction, though? A lot of episodes seem to treat time travel, the TARDIS itself, the sonic screwdriver, and other bits of 'science' as more akin to magic than anything else. With the number of things Matt Smith managed to get his sonic to do, it might as well have had a glittering star on the end with pixie dust trailing after it. Heck, in one of the unreleased scenes he even told Amy he was a "Space Gandalf".

Yea I have always thought of it as more fantasy than science fiction.

[Deleted]

Was that an actual episode or just short? I miss those a lot because I can't see youtube at work and I often forget at home ><

Yeah just a short. Just as canon as the episodes though presumably.

[icausewipes]

Was that an actual episode or just short? I miss those a lot because I can't see youtube at work and I often forget at home ><

[Skandulous]

Math Smith to have a cameo in the new series ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz...-Who-role.html

[icausewipes]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9R8MFD8dszI



So much more....

[Arlee]

Yeah just a short. Just as canon as the episodes though presumably.

Yea I was just trying to figure out why I didn't remember it

OMG, that was awesome