Feminism, women's rights, and the current world

[Lovestar]

Since this hopelessly off-topic thread diverged into a many-pages-long discussion of this topic with a lot of healthy debate before crashing and burning in a two-girl pissing match, I think there's enough interest in the topic to have a thread for it.

Here's a general outline of the issues I'd like to see discussed here:
1. Feminism

• What is it? What does it mean to you? What was it historically, and has it changed to be something different in the current world?
• Do you identify as a feminist? Why, or why not?
• Does it still have a place in the current world, or has its time passed?

2. Women's rights and gender equality

• How do you view these concepts? What do they mean, both literally, and to you?
• Do these concepts differ from feminism?
• Are these movements/battles still necessary in the current world, or has their time passed?

3. The contemporary world

• Are such concepts as the above outmoded in the current world? Or are they still equally important? More important than ever?
• Is the concept of fighting for "gender" equality outdated? Is the "gender" concept itself outdated? Should we really be focusing on human equality?
• Anything else I've missed that you feel is relevant to the general topic!

The above is not a checklist you have to follow, it's just a basic overview to get discussion going and give you some ideas to respond to. Everyone should feel free to respond to this thread with their own personal views, whether you're a Harvard-educated academic or not.

Critical/opposing viewpoints are welcome (you can't have a really good discussion without some disagreement!), but DO NOT CRAP UP THIS THREAD WITH DRAMA, FLAMEBAIT, OR BUTTHURT HISTRIONICS. This applies to posters on all sides of the issue.

I will post my own response next, to keep this first post clear and simple.

[Lysah]

Is the concept of fighting for "gender" equality outdated? Is the "gender" concept itself outdated? Should we really be focusing on human equality?

This is probably the summation of my opinion. I would be willing to guess at least half of all men and half of all women really don't care about this "issue," and of the remainder, people argue over the wrong thing. As long as people are fighting for "women's rights" and not "human rights," there will never be equality. Even if they win this fight, the next one will be over men's rights, etc.

Otherwise, good luck with this thread, maybe I should start an LGBT one =p

[Deleted]

I think both sexes should be viewed equally, but I'm dead against active feminism as a man, for me it only prolongs the stereotype, and if they had their way, the situation would be even more one sided than it is today, only towards women.
Inequalities aren't normal, granted, but the sort of feminism we see nowadays is pathetic: bleating about how women are always at the bottom of the food chain WILL NOT change things.
Just my 2 cents.

[Lovestar]

(split from the 1st post to keep it simple and clean)

As someone who's both intersex and transgender, my relation to these topics is both direct, and yet tangential. I've spent alot of my life being treated as a male (and trying to be one, albeit with much confusion) despite not being one (thanks, parents!). So, to some degree, the things pop-feminism fights against are very appealing to me simply because I've never been allowed to experience them until recently. Even sexual harassment is still kinda new and exciting (but will, I'm sure, wear thin).

I also simply don't have a lot of perspective on the matters from an academic sense, so I can't contribute in a very highbrow way — my understanding of the concepts is amateur at best, and they honestly don't interest me enough to do serious research. I guess I'm just a laid-back person who's focusing on my own issues right now.

At the same time, like all movements, I can acknowledge how these have probably had a positive effect on the overall status of nonmale individuals. But for me (and this probably isn't surprising), I'd rather have a focus on broad human equality than continuing to divide things in overly-stark binary contrast. And when I say "equality", I guess I'm misusing the word a bit — I'm not concerned about people being 100% identical in all significant social respects, but I am concerned about seeing all humans treated properly and with the same basic courtesies and kindness. People load way too much of their behavior onto pink/blue signifiers before anyone gets a chance to really identify their own unique qualities.

Well, that's a jot down of my first quick thoughts. I will probably post something a little more thoughtful later, if the discussion gets going, when I have more time. I hope this thread proves satisfactory to the people I made it for — that is, anyone who has an avid interest in the topic(s).

[DionLight7]

1. Feminism
What is it? What does it mean to you? What was it historically, and has it changed to be something different in the current world?
Do you identify as a feminist? Why, or why not?
Does it still have a place in the current world, or has its time passed?

2. Women's rights and gender equality
How do you view these concepts? What do they mean, both literally, and to you?
Do these concepts differ from feminism?
Are these movements/battles still necessary in the current world, or has their time passed?

3. The contemporary world
Are such concepts as the above outmoded in the current world? Or are they still equally important? More important than ever?
Is the concept of fighting for "gender" equality outdated? Is the "gender" concept itself outdated? Should we really be focusing on human equality?
Anything else I've missed that you feel is relevant to the general topic!

The above is not a checklist you have to follow, it's just a basic overview to get discussion going and give you some ideas to respond to. Everyone should feel free to respond to this thread with their own personal views, whether you're a Harvard-educated academic or not.

Well I'm only good with checklists. And replying to your comment of Transgender I have never really seen one. But on to topic ( and lets hope so)

1. Feminism
What is it? What does it mean to you? What was it historically, and has it changed to be something different in the current world?
Feminism( in my own words) is the power to uphold the use of freedom for women. The ability to stand up to the man-made ideals of then and reform what is to be of the future on equal terms. Like Suzanne B. Anthony, she wanted the ability to have a good job, vote and exercise her freedoms. Yes it has changed.
Do you identify as a feminist? Why, or why not?
No I'm a guy. But I can tell you that my sister is feminist. As is my mom and her side of the family
Does it still have a place in the current world, or has its time passed?
Honestly? No. Feminism was a term to empower women to change the world( my interpretation) in a good way. Nowadays it's slandered to women being in control of their lives, including your own( and if they dont they'll bitch, if you do something about it against them they'll bitch, if you do nothing, they'll bitch). Which is why I said my sister.

2. Women's rights and gender equality
How do you view these concepts? What do they mean, both literally, and to you?
Women's Rights is a valid concept and I agree with it. Both genders need to be equal in order to be successful or have some variety, I believe. But they happen to differ.
Do these concepts differ from feminism?
Women's Rights was the equality of all women toward living in a mans society. Feminism seems to have branched from that. So it's yes for me, but to each his own.
Are these movements/battles still necessary in the current world, or has their time passed?
Women's Rights should still be protected. However I do not know any specific movements outside of it. So I cannot say.

3. The contemporary world
Are such concepts as the above outmoded in the current world? Or are they still equally important? More important than ever?
I don't know how to answer this question :P
Is the concept of fighting for "gender" equality outdated? Is the "gender" concept itself outdated? Should we really be focusing on human equality? Fully. You will never see a guy standing up in public and say that he was/is being mistreated by women. At least nothing I have seen. But the whole females banding together for a common goal is not common and at best is only used for wants, not needs. Nothing public but I had an incident in my school where a girl was being "mistreated"( some guy asked her out and she called out rape and tried to get other girls to away with some guys. Was fuckin stupid).
Anything else I've missed that you feel is relevant to the general topic!

Well....I had a discussion about this with some friends( at school, online etc) and we agreed that whatever came with the good, the bad was not. The definition of equality is just that. Being equal. Now first let me say that everybody has a red button. And like the Mimiron encounter, if you happen to hit that red button flames will appear, people will run and violence will ensue. Also take into account of the TV trope
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../BerserkButton
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.ph.../TeachHimAnger
Now, my point. There are things women can get away with, in most cases be your fault regardless. Picture a guy getting yelled at by a woman. Dude does nothing truly wrong. Forgot to pick up a product at the store, messed with technical equipment or talking to him while doing something important. Right now she is repeatably hitting the red button.
Due to experience + logic=/= emotion he just snaps and hits her. Dude gets cops and story on him for.... instant(temp) rage. He then goes to a therapist for it. Replace the guy and the girl and......nothing happens. In fact most people will say it was warranted.

My mom in conjunction with this is so adamant about women being better role models to society than men but every.F**kin.Time we do something I am ridiculed for something my way. Hell, she doesn't use turn signals when she drives and cut infront of three cars going 60( in a 45) yesterday but tells me that as a guy I'm more reckless going 5mph over the limit?

^That is in no way what women's Rights was supposed to look or be. Suzanne went to a freakin jail just so she could be equal. Nowadays women dont want to accept the consequences of their own actions and blame it on someone else because "girls arent strong enough". At times, they'll even claim how smart they are to a relevant topic to the point where constant correction will anger them, which leads to non-stop arguing. I dont know how many times I wanted to choke slam my sister or some other chick for slander and/or ignorant crap. Understandably, if a woman is pregnant then the rules will bend in her favor( and I will have no problem with it). But out right violence, language and attitude deserves equal treatment of what a guy would get.



^And these are my thoughts. Sorry for long post.

DO NOT CRAP UP THIS THREAD WITH DRAMA, FLAMEBAIT, OR BUTTHURT HISTRIONICS. This applies to posters on all sides of the issue.

If you feel like I posted drama feel free to tell me

[Valarauko]

I applaud this thread. Typically hard to find a feminism thread within even 100 feet of a gaming community.

To me, a lot of feminists have currently lost their way. They sit around blogging about weak female characters on television and stay-at-home moms, while largely ignoring that rape and domestic abuse are still rampant (this is coming from a United States perspective). Media certainly reflects societal realities back at us, but changing the media without attempting to change the society isn't going to do much good.

Women have made a great number of gains in the past few decades. Some studies indicate we're now actually more educated, on average, than our male counterparts. We are CEOs, business owners, physicians, scientists, and so on. However, I think where feminism is still VERY needed is the underlying dynamics of how men view women (and perhaps how women view themselves). As long as rape, domestic assault, and relationship-motivated murder of women is still so common, we *need* to evaluate why. In North Dakota last year, 4 of our 10 statewide murders were men murdering female romantic partners. Our secretary of state said that wasn't unexpected. How sad.

[Manito]

Just a way to further divide people into groups yet masquerade as bringing people together.

[Jordaen]

I think that women are still being mistreated. We may have more equality with men - such as voting, being able to hold high power jobs (though not president yet). However, as previous posters have said, women are still abused. A lot. Rape and other sorts of severe violence still occur. Yes, some women fake being raped to get attention, and that sickens me to death. Being a woman who was raped myself (idc if you believe me, i'm not out for sympathy, just understanding), I HATE when women abuse their "powers" as being "lesser" than men to get attention. There are many, many other ways to get attention, and ways that don't hurt future rape victims. It's like the boy who cried wolf. Keep calling rape and then "JK!!!" enough times, no rape victims will be taken seriously, and it will further damage the efforts to control it. Men need to stop being meatheads and realize that they probably would not like being raped, so why do it to women? Do it enough times and you'll get sent to jail and experience it for yourself. Women need to stop being so damn weak. I'm a girl who plays on an internet game where many of the boys who hear me in vent get all hard and ask where I live, and ask for my facebook, or nudes, and I could give in and do it, and then be a typical WoW girl. But I don't. Instead, I raid lead in a 10 man guild, with all boys, and I get respect. I come into the raid with facts about the encounter, and we kill things. A lot of girls play the helpless victim, like "oh my gosh, that was fire? *giggle* i didn't know i wasn't supposed to stand in it! hehe, my bad guys, I'll fix it next time!" and do it over, and over....and over again. The issue between women and men are caused by both sides, and both sides need to accept responsibility for their gender and just...stop hating.

[DionLight7]

In North Dakota last year, 4 of our 10 statewide murders were men murdering female romantic partners. Our secretary of state said that wasn't unexpected. How sad.

Oh god really? Wow that's kinda f'd up.

[Mr Hyde]

...
Here I was thinking the year was 2010 and not 1970. Everyone in America and the free world is equal so why would you even make a thread about this?

[Valarauko]

Oh god really? Wow that's kinda f'd up.

"Four of the killings could be traced to domestic violence. Prosecutors believe two women were killed by their husbands, one woman by her ex-husband and one woman by her ex-boyfriend.

Historically, about half the homicides in the state are related to domestic issues, Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem said."

From the Fargo Forum. Yeah.....rather depressing.

[Torome]

This is a touchy thread, but seeing as you did post it on a gaming forum and such places are overwhelmingly male dominated(80%+), you will get a lot of replies like mine, even though I don't post often.

Men and Women are different! We are built differently, act differently and think differently. We both have our strengths and weaknesses. Apparently though, to point out the traits that women tend to be weaker in or that men tend to be stronger in is a cardinal sin. I cannot say "Men tend to have better eyesight" without getting chewed out, but no one has a problem with someone saying "Women have a better sense of smell", even though both -in general terms- are true, there are women who have better sight than most men, but on the whole men have better sight, vice versa, a man may have a better sense of smell than most women, but on the whole women have the better sense of smell.

I tend to take people for who they are when I meet them, but if I am picking teams for a competition and know only the sex of the individuals I can choose from, I will pick based on how I feel that sex would perform in the said competition. Is it fair, well, no one ever said life was fair, but doesn't that make it so much sweeter when you win, when you were supposed to lose.

[Zuvassinhellfire]

...
Everyone in America is equal so why would you even make a thread about this?

Because America = the world amirite?

[NineSpine]

Just a way to further divide people into groups yet masquerade as bringing people together.

That's always the cry of the people who have the power. If you think woman are anywhere near equal on this planet, you live in a fantasy world.

[Chippr]

IMO, we shouldn't use the word Feminism.
i suggest a new word: Equalism. =D

[electrikfuzz]

"Four of the killings could be traced to domestic violence. Prosecutors believe two women were killed by their husbands, one woman by her ex-husband and one woman by her ex-boyfriend.

Historically, about half the homicides in the state are related to domestic issues, Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem said."

From the Fargo Forum. Yeah.....rather depressing.

And how exactly is this supposed to be remedied?

They aren't being killed because they're women, they're being killed because they're romantically involved with the killer.

[Deleted]

Nothing about working in the kitchen or making decent food, tl:dr.

This sort of thing will not be tolerated. ~ Fuzzzie

[Dillybear]

What I dont like are the double standards that many feminists i know have and also the lack of actual debate with so called feminists. it seems people are afraid to disagree with someone who claims to be a feminist just because it makes u look sexist, but really with out communication between males and females noone will ever be equal. it will just be a pendulum of power shifting back and forth. Another problem i have is the enoromous focus our society puts on the physical aspect of abuse. no doubt that physical abuse is a horrible thing and anyone that does that should be put in prison, but saying that emotional or psychological abuse isnt as dangerous is wrong and from what ive seen it can cause even more damage than any bruise or broken bone.

[DionLight7]

And how exactly is this supposed to be remedied?

They aren't being killed because they're women, they're being killed because they're romantically involved with the killer.

I believe this is due to instinct or the male gene pool. Men are( apparently from what I've heard and read) animals. The Males brain use experience and logic in life( anatomy told me ). A womans brain uses emotion and judgment.

I cannot say this for everyone but there was a point in my lifetime where logic was thrown out the window into a pool of lava when I was arguing with this girl. Every fiber wanted me to use any physical move on her. Fortunately I did not and I walked away( was still pissed though).

So chances are men who undergo extreme conditions of mind-fuck they are not suited to result in severe consequences. I'm not defending them either because it is unjust and sinful to kill anybody out or a bad relationship. But I shall look for information on this.

BTW I was going on what you said, not going against you.

Edit: I found some links but I dont think it's wise to post them. Here is one though

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...rt-claims.html

[HavokHeart]

One of the biggest mistakes in history was letting the women into the workforce.. There are things to be done in the home and children to be raised. There has been a breakdown in family values ever since.

Thats my opinion anyway.

In todays society women have more rights then men so I dont get what the problem is.

Mod Edit: It is an opinion, but to you and others, make sure the opinion doesn't go out of line. This thread is already on the edge and can become a flamewar very quickly. We would like it to stay open, though.