Protection: Parry and Diminishing Returns

[Hykon]

I have a question concerning parry and diminishing returns. Is it better to stack parry over dodge when possible (mastery is still our best stat) because of our Hold the Line talent? Or would diminishing returns greatly affect our avoidance? I currently am running about 53% block, 18% parry, and about 9% dodge. I haven't had any problems really and have even been complemented by my healers in raids on the ease they have of healing me compared to our pally tank (he was stacking too much stam and not enough avoidance :P). I was wondering if anyone can crunch the numbers for me or has already done so and can share their findings. I want to know if stacking parry due to Hold the Line giving a boost to mitigation and threat would be better than equalizing dodge and parry due to diminishing returns. I'm leaning towards the parry stacking as I have not had much of a problem and have been tanking quite well with this set up. Search me on armory if you'd like.

Hykon of Destromath - Level 85 Blood Elf Warrior

[ravell]

I'm with 54% block, 17% parry and 9,5% dodge and seems fine to me! I believe that Parry's DR start to comes after 22~23 %. But its just a clue.

[Hykon]

I'm with 54% block, 17% parry and 9,5% dodge and seems fine to me! I believe that Parry's DR start to comes after 22~23 %. But its just a clue.

Thanks! I believe the same to be true. I'm also gonna drop my one stam trinket for the Tol Barad mastery trinket once i get a few more commendations, can never have too much mastery!!

[Deleted]

I've always been confused on this matter to be honest. I keep reading different things in different places.

Some things saying to keep parry above dodge (for the talent proc) but to keep within a small margin as to not suffer DR.
I'm currently at 46.61% block, 17.44 mastery with 13.25% parry and 12.07% dodge. Am I going wrong here somewhere? 150k hp unbuffed with item level 357.

[thedankson]

The overall theory seems to be to stack Mastery and try to keep your parry : dodge ratio around 1.2 - 1.6 : 1. Parry is better because of HtL but dodge will be a cheaper way to get to unhittable once your Parry gets higher.

[Kirbysan]

Diminishing returns start the minute you get any dodge or parry. The DR's just increase as an exponential function the more you have. There are countless graphs and math threads on here and tankspot and ej with the numbers and proof.

[Wericia]

This' a graph that is stolen from the protection thread from EJ.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/118/graph3t.jpg

How to use:
Check your total avoidance ratings with buffs on and place the numbers at the bottom of the graph.
Check how much mastery rating you've got with buffs, and place accordingly to the colors over the total avoidance, the numberes are written on the picture.
Then go to the left and see which Parry to Dodge ratio you should be having.

If you've got a total avoidance rating of 2200 and a mastery rating of 2400 for example, you should be having a Parry to Dodge ratio of 1.34:1 for example.

[bpcatt1]

The graph mentioned above is very good. A simpler rule of thumb... determined by Kojiama (sp?) on the tankspot forums... is Parry should be 3-4% above dodge but no more. If your spread is more than 3-4%, you would take less damage by getting dodge and parry closer together due to DR.

[Cracka_Bob]

The graph mentioned above is very good. A simpler rule of thumb... determined by Kojiama (sp?) on the tankspot forums... is Parry should be 3-4% above dodge but no more. If your spread is more than 3-4%, you would take less damage by getting dodge and parry closer together due to DR.

this^

although some people (myself included) try to keep them 1-2% off just so they're a lil closer together.

[Deleted]

I've always been confused on this matter to be honest. I keep reading different things in different places.

Some things saying to keep parry above dodge (for the talent proc) but to keep within a small margin as to not suffer DR.
I'm currently at 46.61% block, 17.44 mastery with 13.25% parry and 12.07% dodge. Am I going wrong here somewhere? 150k hp unbuffed with item level 357.

how´s that possible? i have an ilvl of 352 and am at 152k hp 14.4%parry 10%dodge 49%block (haven´t downed a raidboss yet since it´s a relative freshly dinged 85)

[Deleted]

You cannot look at your % dodge and parry and assume the diminishing returns. Diminishing returns only affects the ratings you gain from gear, enchants and gems. You'll have to go to your armory and add your defensive stats together.

For instance, my toon has 10.61% dodge and 15.29% parry, but 1264 dodge rating and 1463 parry rating.

My dodge rating : parry rating is 1 : 1.16
My dodge : parry is 1 : 1.44

Or put in words, I got 16% more parry rating, but 44% more parry.

As the graph above suggests, the more mastery you have, the higher dodge rating : parry rating is tolerable. But the more avoidance ratings we get from gear, the rougher DR becomes making balancing them more and more important. According to this graph, I should ideally have ~30% more parry rating from my gear than dodge rating from my gear. Halfus' wrists would be a great upgrade to me, since I'd get both mastery and change dodge for parry, making my balance almost perfect.

You can calculate your own dodge rating : parry rating by simply adding the seperate ratings together (for instance, 2000 parry, 1500 dodge) then dividing them (2000/1500 = 1.33, or 33% more parry).

[xebtria]

therefore this means... with my gear I should have a parry/dodge ratio of 1.2:1, but currently I tried to balance the stats, so I'm pretty close to 1:1 (1604 parry, 1665 dodge, so it's even more dodge than parry), resulting in 13.05% dodge and 13.29% parry. since it's a total of 3269, I should aim for ~1783:1486 dodgearry (which would be ~1.2:1)? aka reforging dodge to parry until I get to about these 1783 parry rating from gear?

hmmm, I'm trying to do this. at least it's a very good sheet if those numbers are somewhat correct and reasonable.

[Deleted]

Aye, been using the same sheet myself now, both the first and this second imp. version. At least so far, nobody has come forth to challenge the validity of the sheet. I don't worry too much if my rating schews a bit. The author established that the "punishment"isn't very severe by a relatively large margin. So if your optimal ratio was 1.2, it wouldn't screw you over just because you got to 1.3 with a new gear piece.

So far, my ratio has kept in check just by following my usual gemming and reforging principle. Ofc, have to keep in mind also that by the time our gear improves closer to 102.4% it is worth ditching this graph and equalizing your stats, just for the extra benefit to reach your mark. I am already ~90% now, without any hard mode gear and the word is that the the BiS gear from hard modes, should enable 102.4% or at least come very, very close to it.

[Deleted]

...at least it's a very good sheet if those numbers are somewhat correct and reasonable.

From my understandings of the mechanics, those numbers can't be very wrong, because you intuitively should have a bit more Parry than Dodge until you reach an Hold The Line uptime of nearly 100%

[xebtria]

Aye, been using the same sheet myself now, both the first and this second imp. version. At least so far, nobody has come forth to challenge the validity of the sheet. I don't worry too much if my rating schews a bit. The author established that the "punishment"isn't very severe by a relatively large margin. So if your optimal ratio was 1.2, it wouldn't screw you over just because you got to 1.3 with a new gear piece.

So far, my ratio has kept in check just by following my usual gemming and reforging principle. Ofc, have to keep in mind also that by the time our gear improves closer to 102.4% it is worth ditching this graph and equalizing your stats, just for the extra benefit to reach your mark. I am already ~90% now, without any hard mode gear and the word is that the the BiS gear from hard modes, should enable 102.4% or at least come very, very close to it.

nope you won't be able to hit 102.4% this tier. I quickly built a profile for on chardev http://chardev.org/?profile=48343 with all (I think) BiS items when you want to focus on 102.4%.

I'm missing the Permafrost ring from council HC, chardev has no possibility for those random stats. (or I didn't found them). I also use the Porcellain Crab, because there is only one non-stamina tank trinket higher than 346 - the TB rep trinket.

I focused on balancing the dodge/parry ratings from gear, and due to higher parry I did:
=> threat stats into mastery>dodge>parry
=> parry into mastery>dodge
=> dodge into mastery
=> mastery don't reforge
therefore dodge/mastery items were not reforged.
gems: red: parry/mastery, yellow: mastery, blue mastery/stam.
but all focused on balance the ratings of dodge/parry to get as high as possible, so by far not every item was reforged.

final stats are:
Dodge 13.75% (1904 rating)
Parry 14.78% (1941 rating)
Block 56.82% (24.24 mastery; 2912 rating)
Miss 5.00%
=> 90,35%
http://chardev.org/?profile=48343

so I don't want to doubt you, but without any HC loot 90%? really?
either it is very strange or the DR's are already kicking in that hard, that there is no real increase anymore. therefore this would continue for later tiers, questioning the aiming for 102.4% itself.
And I highly doubt, that the 372 permafrost + Kings + Battleshout would make up 12% of the unhittable thing.

[Bucky Mclachlan]

Avoidance cap is 75%. Yes the magical number you are aiming for is 75% avoidance, from your accumulated block, dodge and parry rating.

[xebtria]

no it is not. it is the soft cap (aka unhittable with shield block active) and it is for warriors only (paladins don't have shield block, and druids/dks don't block). and even this is 77,4 and not 75. and it includes the base 5% miss from bosses, not only dodge, block and parry. so please...

and 77,4% is achieved in blue/green gear (I did it with couple of 346, 333s and one or two 318 blues already), so by pure common sense, this can't be a serious cap worth aiming for when you reach it with close to NO effort.

[Mammoth]

This' a graph that is stolen from the protection thread from EJ.

http://img835.imageshack.us/img835/118/graph3t.jpg

How to use:
Check your total avoidance ratings with buffs on and place the numbers at the bottom of the graph.
Check how much mastery rating you've got with buffs, and place accordingly to the colors over the total avoidance, the numberes are written on the picture.
Then go to the left and see which Parry to Dodge ratio you should be having.

If you've got a total avoidance rating of 2200 and a mastery rating of 2400 for example, you should be having a Parry to Dodge ratio of 1.34:1 for example.

Ironically that graph was developed on the mmo-champ forums http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post10384201

Can you give me the link to the EJ page, hopefully its the same guy and not a rip off.

Edit: It is the same guy. My enrage is soothed.

[Deleted]

so I don't want to doubt you, but without any HC loot 90%? really?

I'm having some serious doubts of the validity of that profiler zebtria. I just looked at my numbers last night but doubled checked after reading your post to make sure; once I add mastery food & elixir and enabling battle shout, I get the following numbers:

Dodge 12.28%
Parry 14.32%
Block 59.73%
Miss 5%

That totals 91.33%. I'll leave my tank gear on so you can check my armory if you wish (though might take time to update) but for trinkets, I am using also the Mirror of Broken Images (Baradin Warden for Alliance) and the Porcelain Crab. There is also an epic avoidance trinket from the Darkmoon Cards. I haven't looked at it closely yet, still on my todo list, but it looks like it could provide more total avoidance and block than Porcelain Crab, when reforged to Mastery.

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../hogi/advanced

But anyway, so over 90% is quite possible, even with still one blue trinket. The rest are epics from normal modes, though I am still missing a couple of pieces, like the mace from Maloriak, the helm from Valiona, and ofc shield from Nefarian. About the cap, I think it should be pretty close to possible because someone posted before that apparently Xav has reached something like 99% and was still missing a couple of pieces. So even if can't reach quite 102.4% it is still damn close.

It actually makes me think how Blizz is going to balance this because at least in ICC, 102.4% was pretty darn OP and this is still the 1st Cata tier. In 2nd tier, we'll probably reach 102.4% without too much difficulty, at least if Blizz continues with the current gear scaling.

[xebtria]

armory ain't updated yet. but for me, I'm missing T10 for now (still hoping, that Boradin hold would drop at least one of it for me ), but the gear ain't that bad, only missing 4 blues (+ T10, got the world random chest + the atramedes legs), and one of it is also the crab-trinket.
yet I'm missing 6% block compared to you, from which ass are you pulling those out?
Will check my stats ingame, but I think I'm at 55,something block raidbuffed, so the 53,something from armory seem to be right.

man this is really complicated


about the validity of chardev... well... pi times thumb tells me, that the values seem to be alright. are you using a heavy mastery build like the mastery gloves from council and the t10 dps legs or something? that may explain the extreme mastery value, but otherwise. phew. waiting for your armory to update.^^