Avengers shield misses..... ALOT

[theonegod]

No, he doesnt need more hit. Why would he need more hit?

---------- Post added 2011-03-06 at 02:16 AM ----------

As the Prot Pally thread on EJ points out, you should reforge back into hit/exp if you are having threat issues

It doesnt actually say that. it says you could if you are having threat issues. However that if you are, then your problem is bigger then hit and you need to learn your priority system better.

[Cernunnos]

Well, they did say all non-damaging off the GCD attacks, and Avengers Shield does damage and is on the GCD.

Did you even read my post?

Seems to be the only interrupt not on the list. but then again, AS isn't off the GCD.

I admitted AS is on the GCD, hence why it is not listed with the other interrupts.

All those other interrupts will be properly classed as interrupts, AS will still be considered a spell. Spells can miss. Interrupts in the future patch will not.

[theonegod]

I think of AS more as a silence which interrupts as a function of its silence. However not a true interrupt.

[Evereghalo]

Don't listen to Diezel. He is completely wrong. If you are trying to cap or in fact, if you are working on hit or exp at all then you are bad.

Not if he is only tanking heroics.

[davep]

It's really funny when I throw AS, I hit the first guy, then it bounces, misses, goes miles away at high speed, and boomerangs into a 3rd guy! xD

But on topic:
Being tank also means you gotta hitcap! Good thing the char sheet maths out how much rating you need, but surely you weren't expecting to stack only defensive stats.

After a billion threads have been saying that you shouldn't be reforging/gemming for hit at all people still say that you need to. Stop, just stop.

---------- Post added 2011-03-07 at 02:03 PM ----------

Not if he is only tanking heroics.

He doesn't need to even if he's tanking only heroics... What do you think the Raid tanks do when they want to get there daily out of the way? We don't go and reforge for hit and then do the instance. I don't have issues in raids or in heroics and up until 3 days ago I only had 0.46% hit now I'm just over 1% and still don't have an issue.

[imortals]

If only avenger's shield was considered an interrupt like mind freeze, pummel or kick.

All non-damaging interrupts off the global cooldown will now always hit the target. This includes Pummel, Shield Bash, Kick, Mind Freeze, Rebuke, Skull Bash, Counterspell, Wind Shear, Solar Beam, Silencing Shot, and related player pet abilities.

Seems to be the only interrupt not on the list. but then again, AS isn't off the GCD.

wromg, i got some serieus rebuke dodges and parries, VERY VERY annoying cos u cant expect a prot pally to stack so much expertise to never get parried.

[Exoter175]

A lot of this "I don't need hit" talk stems from Vengeance scaling which is superb right now. It also stems from the fact that DPS itemization doesn't really start to scale until higher item levels.

That being said, either some of you are embellishing, or you don't have ambitious enough DPS in your raids.

Speaking from a DPS perspective, my job is to make your job hard. I'm here to ride your ass on threat from start to finish. While I generally cannot maintain your TPS through the entirety of a fight, I can ride it and surpass it in the first 30-45 seconds of most fights because I'm attempting to frontload as much damage as I can via CD's like a Pre-Cast Pyro+LB GCD + Combustion if that Pyroblast crits, or by doing a Elemental Freeze + Deep Freeze Crit

A single missed ability in your rotation can prove to be troublesome. I know this from experience as I've had a number of Cauterize procs in the first 30 seconds of some of these fights as I'd ever actually like to have happen, and I have some pretty damned good tanks tanking for me >.<

What I have noticed is that going into HM's, a lot of tanks are starting to flirt with that ~80% avoidance margin and reforging into Hit for this very reason.

It really all depends on the fight and the raid composition more than anything. If, for example, you're going into a fight like Halfus and you know healing isn't going to be an issue for you, you really should use some Hit/Expertise gear for the sake of adding an incremental amount of DPS to the raid group, as well as allowing people like myself to go absolutely nuts on the Drakes + Whelps spreading Combustion, Living Bomb, and Ignite on all of those little guys

Other fights, for example, like a Heroic Nef that you may or may not have gotten down yet, will certainly require you to maximize your Avoidance for the sake of minimizing your incoming damage in the name of progression.

It has always been my theory (I have two tanks of my own, Paladin and Warrior) that every tank should have two sets of gear, one for Avoidance and one for Threat, and a number of additional interchangeable items like trinkets to swap in and out as each fight changes.

[davep]

I've done 3/13 HM's with 0.46% Hit (Halfus, Chimaeron and Maloriak) and I haven't had issues. On Maloriak I was expected to interrupt all the Arcane Storms and I had some help but looking at the interrupts I had the most by a considerable margin. Also threat is not an issue at all even with 0% unless you are horrible.

[Deleted]

If only avenger's shield was considered an interrupt like mind freeze, pummel or kick.

All non-damaging interrupts off the global cooldown will now always hit the target. This includes Pummel, Shield Bash, Kick, Mind Freeze, Rebuke, Skull Bash, Counterspell, Wind Shear, Solar Beam, Silencing Shot, and related player pet abilities.

Seems to be the only interrupt not on the list. but then again, AS isn't off the GCD.

Bolded your interrupt, brah.

[Exoter175]

I've done 3/13 HM's with 0.46% Hit (Halfus, Chimaeron and Maloriak) and I haven't had issues. On Maloriak I was expected to interrupt all the Arcane Storms and I had some help but looking at the interrupts I had the most by a considerable margin. Also threat is not an issue at all even with 0% unless you are horrible.

Either you really outgear your DPS by a considerable margin, get really lucky on your openers, ask your dps to hold back initially, or your raid's dps is rather lackluster.

Which is why I said above that most of you posting about not having any threat issues, don't have ambitious enough DPS. A singled missed CS or SoTR in your opening rotation is going to bring your threat levels down to that of the DPS in your raid (if they are good). Even with ToT and/or MD. Once Vengeance builds up, on the other hand, you can pretty much faceroll your way through every non-threat gimmick fight without any issues.

In 4..1 that should change with GC giving AS a HoPo charge which should alleviate these "opening" problems that a lot of tanks actually have, but won't admit to.

[Inkompetent]

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.co...verything.html !

But yeah, hit is gud. As is expertise. No need to exaggerate either, but got to have 'enough' to feel comfortable to hit most of the time.

[Higg]

It's really funny when I throw AS, I hit the first guy, then it bounces, misses, goes miles away at high speed, and boomerangs into a 3rd guy! xD

lol yes! it's kinda embarassing cuz the whole raid knows who's spell that is flying into outer space >.<

[cncrules45]

I have a hit/expertise capped set I use for heroics, but only because it lets me beat the baddie DPS on the damage meters. Come Grand Crusader buff, I will be rolling in win as a faceroll to the top of the charts.

Anyways, more on point, hit is nice for AS so that you can be sure to silence your target(s) on the pull to collect them, but it isn't necessary. In a heroic, if something is beating on someone else for a while, who cares, you should have plenty of time to react with a taunt/Judge, Hammer your melee mobs for a Grand Crusader Proc and if all of that fails, walk over and smack your target in the face, then Rebuke its next spell.

Despite what people might say, hit is not needed for threat, even for the first 15-30 seconds of a boss. Your hit is already 92%, capping it is a trivial threat difference and most of the time you aren't going to miss on the first few pulls anyways. On a boss, your pull should be AS > CS (or HoR) > Judge > CS > AW + Offensive Trinket/CD (if available) + HW > CS > SoR > DP > SoR = Golden. If you can get into melee range before pulling, then you can move the first AS back and CS > AS > CS > AW + Offensive Trinket/CD + Judge > CS... Popping wings on the pull (or before) is a waste of the CD because you have 0 Vengeance and 0 HP. Popping DP at the beginning of the pull is a waste because you have 0 Vengeance and you delay your Vengeance stacking by putting up your 10% Block buff so early. Taking a few big hits on the pull will not kill you and is almost always the only damage out at the time, giving your healer something to do. If you still have DPS that creep up on you (Ret Paladins and their ZOMG CDs), use your HoSalv. Proper use of HoSalv is a better threat increase than anything else you can do.

Additionally, in heroics, if your healer can support it chain-pulling is better for your threat as it allows you to keep your Vengeance stack as you charge in to the next group, letting you unload with high threat abilities at the start.

But seriously, having threat issues makes me sad, don't do it.

[davep]

Either you really outgear your DPS by a considerable margin, get really lucky on your openers, ask your dps to hold back initially, or your raid's dps is rather lackluster.

Which is why I said above that most of you posting about not having any threat issues, don't have ambitious enough DPS. A singled missed CS or SoTR in your opening rotation is going to bring your threat levels down to that of the DPS in your raid (if they are good). Even with ToT and/or MD. Once Vengeance builds up, on the other hand, you can pretty much faceroll your way through every non-threat gimmick fight without any issues.

In 4..1 that should change with GC giving AS a HoPo charge which should alleviate these "opening" problems that a lot of tanks actually have, but won't admit to.

I get MD'd before every pull that way I can hold initial threat, also my DPS is fine from what I can tell. Also if you look at any of the top tanks in the world they aren't hit or expertised capped also and I guarantee their DPS isn't undergeared at all.

When I first started raiding I was hit/expertise capped but then I saw people saying you didn't need to so I switched it up and from what I could tell I was getting the same amount of threat gain.

[Tradu]

What I have noticed is that going into HM's, a lot of tanks are starting to flirt with that ~80% avoidance margin and reforging into Hit for this very reason.

When you say 80% avoidance, I assume you mean 80% CTC, which is dodge+parry+block+miss. And I have 85% CTC on my pally alt that doesn't have a single item from raids. Just wanted to point that out.


On topic:

The pally alt I mentioned runs with about 2,5% hit and 14 expertise(including the glyph), and I can easily keep aggro from full 359(some of them have a 372 piece or 4) geared people. If you're having trouble with aggro, use the Divine Plea > Judge > SotR as opener, and if that isn't enough look at your general "rotation"(remember to use CS > filler > CS > filler etc). If thats not enough either, get people to Tricks and MD you, and do a few more normals to get the aggro keeping trained some more.

[underdogba]

In terms of real practical play, you don't need any hit and expertise whatsoever, and anybody who is suggesting that you need to cap is totally misguided, unless we're specifically talking about 10-man raid encounters where your comp is such that you need to be a dedicated interrupter for specific casts.

In terms of general threat holding, what I would recommend is becoming good at adapting quickly to having missed. When pulling trash in heroics, you should always be expecting Avengers to miss, and ready to position yourself correctly to Holy Wrath right in the center of the mobs, or hit an HotR at the right time so that the necessary mobs are in range. Or if you were depending on Avengers to silence a ranged mob into range of your HoTR's, judging just that mob to hold it until you can get a Grand Crusader proc, or possibly running over a Rebuking it quickly to bring it into the fold, or if the terrain permit its, LOS'ing briefly to induce it to charge. You have a lot of tools at your disposal to make things work out when you miss.

All of this is about getting experience tanking and being able to adjust in real time instead of depending on a set sequence of events on every single pull. A large part of what I would consider your skill in the tanking role is being able to quickly and coolly respond appropriately to unexpected circumstances.

[Alvito]

Which doesn't hit tanks....

It shouldnt but if threat is bad to start it will. Then threat snowballs quickly. Its not like the bosses know who the tanks are things are based on threat if tank threat is low then dps become the tanks in the eyes of the boss.

---------- Post added 2011-03-08 at 06:55 PM ----------

If only avenger's shield was considered an interrupt like mind freeze, pummel or kick.

All non-damaging interrupts off the global cooldown will now always hit the target. This includes Pummel, Shield Bash, Kick, Mind Freeze, Rebuke, Skull Bash, Counterspell, Wind Shear, Solar Beam, Silencing Shot, and related player pet abilities.

Seems to be the only interrupt not on the list. but then again, AS isn't off the GCD.

The changes to those abilities isnt live yet so hit is still important. When 4.1 goes live its not going to matter much for most tanks.

[Deleted]

Have you people that is saying "zomg! i have 1% hit, do raids and i have no problemz!" realized that the OP is saying he is doing 5 men heroics and not raids or you just listen to your e-peen and respond acordingly ? The main fact that in raids you have no problem with threat is because of insane vengeance scalling in raids. He is talking 5 men here people.

In 5 men heroic content having hit/expertise makes it much much better to build Holypower for WOG (if the healer is not keeping up) thus adding a lot to your survival as a consequence, and in therms of threat you have much less chance to miss your initial AS or Shotr because we all know that in 5men heroics some dpsers make your life very very hard, unless ofc you are playing with scrubs that have no idea what is like doing more than 6k dps and wait 20 seconds into the fight before unloading their cooldowns because they have no motivation to do good dps.


In my particular case, i DO have some HIT/Expertise for 5 men heroic content and i find it much more enjoyable to tank that way. I dont feel weaker in the mitigation part mainly because my holy power generation is much more consistant and i can WOG more often. I understand that will change when WOG has a 20 second cooldown somewhat, but we'll see how it goes then.

[cncrules45]

If you are having threat problems, you should not be WoGing. Having to sacrifice mitigation stats for threat stats so that you can press fewer threat abilities and more healing ones ends up as a loss. In fact, if you are pressing WoG regularly in 5-mans you are doing it wrong or your healer is bad, spend that HoPo on the boss/trash and finish that instance faster. SoR is not just threat, its damage.

[davep]

Have you people that is saying "zomg! i have 1% hit, do raids and i have no problemz!" realized that the OP is saying he is doing 5 men heroics and not raids or you just listen to your e-peen and respond acordingly ? The main fact that in raids you have no problem with threat is because of insane vengeance scalling in raids. He is talking 5 men here people.

In 5 men heroic content having hit/expertise makes it much much better to build Holypower for WOG (if the healer is not keeping up) thus adding a lot to your survival as a consequence, and in therms of threat you have much less chance to miss your initial AS or Shotr because we all know that in 5men heroics some dpsers make your life very very hard, unless ofc you are playing with scrubs that have no idea what is like doing more than 6k dps and wait 20 seconds into the fight before unloading their cooldowns because they have no motivation to do good dps.


In my particular case, i DO have some HIT/Expertise for 5 men heroic content and i find it much more enjoyable to tank that way. I dont feel weaker in the mitigation part mainly because my holy power generation is much more consistant and i can WOG more often. I understand that will change when WOG has a 20 second cooldown somewhat, but we'll see how it goes then.

I don't know about everyone else but even though I'm doing heroic raid bosses I still haven't stopped doing 5mans, I like to cap out my VP for the week and doing the daily is the way to go. That being said with little hit I still don't have issues with threat in 5mans at all.