Hart trophy becoming a joke?

[Elitelevel]

Since the lockout the Hart has been so inconsistent.


In 2006 Jagr has 54 goals and 69 assists for 123 points. Thornton had 29 goals and 96 assists for 125 points.
So Jagr has TWO less points but 25 more goals and he loses the MVP. Finalist were Thornton, Jagr,Kipper

in 2009 something very similar happens.
Ovechkin scores 56 goals and 54 assists for 110 points. Malkin had 35 goals and 78 assists for 113 points.
So Ovechkin had three less points but he Had 21 more goals and he wins the Hart.... Finalists Datsyuk,Ovechkin,Malkin

in 2010 it happens again.

Crosby scores 51 goals and 58 assists for 109 points. Henrik Sedin scores 29 goals and 83 assists for 112 points.
Crosby had 3 less points but 22 more goals and he loses the hart but not just lose he comes in third.... Finalists H.Sedin,Crosby,Ovechkin.

Whats going on with the hart. It has just been going to the art ross winner besides when Malkin won it?

[Fuzzzie]

WWDD?

What would Datsyuk do? :P

Kidding aside. I think in a league that struggles for ratings against the MLB and NBA (certainly the NFL) they want to spread the love around. Since the early 90s the NHL's goal has been to give the sport maximum exposure. The trouble lies in the target audience in some cases.

Now I have nothing against people from Arizona, or Florida, or California, or Georgia? Seriously. It's not their cup of tea. Put teams in markets that will drive fanatical fans. Wisconsin, MB, Atlantic Canada, Southern Ontario, Even a team out in RI or Vermont would draw a crowd. It's a cold climate sport. you're born into loving it. People in Arizona don't give a shit. That's ok for them, but not the sport.

/tangent off.

But yeah, politics and pushing the sport has a lot to do with it.

[RDIFB]

I think the thing you fail to see is the fact that the NHL already has a Trophy for Most Goals (Maurice 'Rocket' Richard Trophy) and the Most Points (Art Ross Trophy), and while yes, the League does tend to favor Offense over Defense, scoring Goals/Points does not neccesarily make you the MVP material. not saying it doesn't, but it is not the only factor that matters.

[Xevan]

Let's see, Henrik played 19 games without his brother and still managed to be above 1ppg production. There's already an award for goal scoring.

[RDIFB]

Let's see, Henrik played 19 games without his brother and still managed to be above 1ppg production. There's already an award for goal scoring.

yes, but after seeing the whole Marcelos/Elite debate in the Crosby thread, yeah, i don't know how much stock Elite puts in anything NOT Goals/Points.

[Elitelevel]

yes, but after seeing the whole Marcelos/Elite debate in the Crosby thread, yeah, i don't know how much stock Elite puts in anything NOT Goals/Points.

im just saying it has been inconsistent

[RDIFB]

im just saying it has been inconsistent

and yet the only thing you pointed out is goals. goals neccesarily do not make you the best player in the league. there is most definately more aspects to hockey than scoring. there already is a trophy for scoring goals. hell there is even a trophy for points. the MVP does not neccesarily mean "the guy who scores the most goals" it means Most Valuable Player.

[Elitelevel]

and yet the only thing you pointed out is goals. goals neccesarily do not make you the best player in the league. there is most definately more aspects to hockey than scoring. there already is a trophy for scoring goals. hell there is even a trophy for points. the MVP does not neccesarily mean "the guy who scores the most goals" it means Most Valuable Player.

When you have like 3 less points and 20+ more goals safe to say you were more valuable. Anyways I'm just saying that it has been inconsistent.

[RDIFB]

Since the lockout the Hart has been so inconsistent.


In 2006 Jagr has 54 goals and 69 assists for 123 points. Thornton had 29 goals and 96 assists for 125 points.
So Jagr has TWO less points but 25 more goals and he loses the MVP.

in 2009 something very similar happens.
Ovechkin scores 56 goals and 54 assists for 110 points. Malkin had 35 goals and 78 assists for 113 points.
So Ovechkin had three less points but he Had 21 more goals and he wins the Hart....

in 2010 it happens again.

Crosby scores 51 goals and 58 assists for 109 points. Henrik Sedin scores 29 goals and 83 assists for 112 points.
Crosby had 3 less points but 22 more goals and he loses the hart but not just lose he comes in third....

Whats going on with the hart. It has just been going to the art ross winner besides when Malkin won it?

notice the parts you bolded, thats where you are fixiated. this guy got MORE goals than that guy, but that guy got the MVP trophy. well sorry, but they have a Trophy for Goals, that does not mean they deserve the MVP trophy too.

---------- Post added 2011-04-20 at 11:51 AM ----------

When you have like 3 less points and 20+ more goals safe to say you were more valuable.

Lidstrom is probably the MVP of the Detroit Red Wings, Him or Datsyuk, and Yet Henrik Zetterberg and Daniel Cleary both had more goals. there is more to the game than just goals and points, and the problem is, that is all you are looking at. besides, sometimes the guy who set up the goal is not the guy who gets the goal.

[conscript]

The Hart is for the most valuable player, not the top goal scorer in the league, that is the Rocket Richard. All of those situations you highlighted are players that were far more valuable to the success of their teams than the player you named. The only potential exception is Sedin last year who rode an absolute tidal wave of secondary assists to the Hart. I really think that Assists need to be split into Primary and Secondary on stat sheets. It is a very telling statistic. I still think Sedin deserved the Hart though as he carried the Nucks when Daniel was injured.

The problem with trying to analyze how the NHL awards are handed out is they are all media voted awards. The PHWA votes for the candidates that they feel should get the award, and a lot of the time their voting is extremely biased. http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puc...urn=nhl-250861 That blog post has the full votes for last years awards. For each one there are a handful, or in some cases dozens, of players who don't deserve to be on the list but are there because one of their local media people placed a vote for them on their final ballot. That is the problem with allowing journalists from all over the country be the voting board or an award. It will lead to bias.

Moral of the story is that there is only one reward in the NHL where the names on it actually deserve to be on there, Lord Stanley's Cup. All the other non-statistical awards are completely subject to opinion.

[Elitelevel]

notice the parts you bolded, thats where you are fixiated. this guy got MORE goals than that guy, but that guy got the MVP trophy. well sorry, but they have a Trophy for Goals, that does not mean they deserve the MVP trophy too.

---------- Post added 2011-04-20 at 11:51 AM ----------



Lidstrom is probably the MVP of the Detroit Red Wings, Him or Datsyuk, and Yet Henrik Zetterberg and Daniel Cleary both had more goals. there is more to the game than just goals and points, and the problem is, that is all you are looking at. besides, sometimes the guy who set up the goal is not the guy who gets the goal.

I'm showing the guys who were finalists who could have won the award. I'm saying Jagr and Crosby both lose the award but then Ovechkin in the same situation wins it? It shows that the hart is inconsistent.

[RDIFB]

I'm showing the guys who were finalists who could have won the award. I'm saying Jagr and Crosby both lose the award but then Ovechkin in the same situation wins it? It shows that the hart is inconsistent.

again, maybe the league is focusing on more than just goals and points, which are the two stats you show.

[Elitelevel]

again, maybe the league is focusing on more than just goals and points, which are the two stats you show.

What are they going to focus on with the finalists? Finalists are always at the top of the league. I'm not talking about the defense. All the finalists everyear get the for their Offence.

[RDIFB]

What are they going to focus on with the finalists? Finalists are always at the top of the league. I'm not talking about the defense. All the finalists everyear get the for their Offence.

shrug, maybe they look at all around play. after all Datsyuk's offensive numbers are never as amazing as Crosby, but he is without a doubt the best two way player in the league and IMO MVP worthy.

[Elitelevel]

shrug, maybe they look at all around play. after all Datsyuk's offensive numbers are never as amazing as Crosby, but he is without a doubt the best two way player in the league and IMO MVP worthy.

Never said he was not MVP worthy in 2009. I'm just showing how the hart is inconsistent on how it is given out.

[RDIFB]

Never said he was not MVP worthy in 2009. I'm just showing how the hart is inconsistent on how it is given out.

thats because you are focusing on two stats. maybe you should look at all the stats for those guys.

[conscript]

Kidding aside. I think in a league that struggles for ratings against the MLB and NBA (certainly the NFL) they want to spread the love around. Since the early 90s the NHL's goal has been to give the sport maximum exposure. The trouble lies in the target audience in some cases.

Now I have nothing against people from Arizona, or Florida, or California, or Georgia? Seriously. It's not their cup of tea. Put teams in markets that will drive fanatical fans. Wisconsin, MB, Atlantic Canada, Southern Ontario, Even a team out in RI or Vermont would draw a crowd. It's a cold climate sport. you're born into loving it. People in Arizona don't give a shit. That's ok for them, but not the sport.

Ya Bettman's legacy is going to be pushing the sports into non-traditional markets. Some it has worked out, others it has been an abject failure. Tampa Bay has worked out pretty well. They even have a Cup to show for it. Dallas also has a Cup, but things aren't going nearly as well although that is a management issue most likely as that team was very popular until recent years. Phoenix has never worked out, especially since the team moved to Glendale. San Jose and Anaheim have been extremely successful on and off the ice. Columbus, while hardly a southern team, has been an abject failure but at least in part can be blamed on horrible, horrible management. Seriously, how many years has Rick Nash been a star for that team with absolutely no other first line talent. Nashville is a good team in a bad market compounded with having horrible ownership in the past. Carolina has been a success although stealing the Whale was a dick move.

[Elitelevel]

thats because you are focusing on two stats. maybe you should look at all the stats for those guys.

Ok so Your saying Ovechkin was a defence expert? Ovechkin did not even know what a backcheck is in 2009.

[conscript]

Never said he was not MVP worthy in 2009. I'm just showing how the hart is inconsistent on how it is given out.

The Hart isn't an award based on offensive merits alone, that is the problem in your argument. If it was, Miller and Bryz wouldn't have gotten significant Hart support last year and Hasek wouldn't have won it in the past. When considering a forward for the Hart, the PHWA considers the following to varying degrees:
G, A, P, PPG, PPA, PPP, TOI, +/-, TOPP, TOPK, GW, TW, and on and on. There is no simple formula of guy with most points=Hart winner. It may seem like that since more often than not the PHWA voters are shallow brain dead idiots who only vote based on the point standings (See Mike Green and Norris voting). Because so many variables are considered, you are going to get situations where the top goal scorer doesn't walk away with the Hart.

---------- Post added 2011-04-20 at 01:14 PM ----------

Ok so Your saying Ovechkin was a defence expert? Ovechkin did not even know what a backcheck is in 2009.

And yet somehow he got a 1st and a 4th place vote in the Selke award voting. No way did those votes come from Caps PHWA members though. No way. Although he was a ridiculous +45.

[Fuzzzie]

Ya Bettman's legacy is going to be pushing the sports into non-traditional markets. Some it has worked out, others it has been an abject failure. Tampa Bay has worked out pretty well. They even have a Cup to show for it. Dallas also has a Cup, but things aren't going nearly as well although that is a management issue most likely as that team was very popular until recent years. Phoenix has never worked out, especially since the team moved to Glendale. San Jose and Anaheim have been extremely successful on and off the ice. Columbus, while hardly a southern team, has been an abject failure but at least in part can be blamed on horrible, horrible management. Seriously, how many years has Rick Nash been a star for that team with absolutely no other first line talent. Nashville is a good team in a bad market compounded with having horrible ownership in the past. Carolina has been a success although stealing the Whale was a dick move.

Tampa is a success because a tonne of canadians go down to florida in the winter time. It's not a big secret.