The legendary staff recipient, a mathematical approach?

[Deleted]

Something over the past few days has really got me thinking, would it be possible to take a slightly diverse route of picking the recipient and look at this from a mathematical point of view?

I know most guilds have already factored in some basic variables such as attendance and performance, however would it be possible to create a formula where you can substitute values to get a definitive end result, such as a ranking/score and compare that to the other contenders for the staff.

Basically I'm asking, is this possible? And if so, how?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

[Vlacari]

Collect DPS charts from all ranged classes in BiS gear, with and without legendary.

[resare]

Something over the past few days has really got me thinking, would it be possible to take a slightly diverse route of picking the recipient and look at this from a mathematical point of view?

I know most guilds have already factored in some basic variables such as attendance and performance, however would it be possible to create a formula where you can substitute values to get a definitive end result, such as a ranking/score and compare that to the other contenders for the staff.

Basically I'm asking, is this possible? And if so, how?

Thanks in advance for any feedback.

There's not much to "mathematically" determine. The legendary copies a spell and attacks your target with it. Therefore it would most likely best benefit classes with large single damage spell/attacks, e.g. mage and boomkin.

[makrinos]

My question is - why would you want to? I realize some guilds are more serious than others when it comes to raiding, but no matter how cutting edge or progressive you may be, wouldn't you want at least *some* objective judgement going into who gets the new legendary, based on the factors you mentioned like attendance and performance, rather than giving it to someone based on a mathematical model? At its core, WoW is a social game; take the time to sit down with officers (and possibly the entire guild), and look at it from as many angles as you need, but please don't decide who gets a legendary based on a spreadsheet. Unless the answer comes out to 42. Or 33.33 (repeating, of course).

[Deleted]

Of course there is, but the formula itself would be completely subjective so you might as well just award it to whoever you think deserves it the most. Otherwise you'd be using "math" to "prove" what is essentially still just your opinion.

For instance I can give every player 3 points for every fight where they toped DMG meters, and 2 points for every raid they attended and -5 points for every time they caused a wipe, but at the end of the day I made up those numbers and there is no objective truth behind any of them. This is true of any formula you make for this purpose regardless of how simple or complex it is, and every formula will also have grey areas that are filled in with opinion (was that wipe really their fault? How about -3 points for that one instead of -5?).

If you want a ranking system to determine who gets the legendary then sit down and come up with one that suits your priorities, be they attendance, performance or w/e else. Although that's just unnecessarily complicating things imo.

There's not much to "mathematically" determine. The legendary copies a spell and attacks your target with it. Therefore it would most likely best benefit classes with large single damage spell/attacks, e.g. mage and boomkin.

That's only true if it has an internal CD. If it doesn't your argument falls apart because copying 3 small spells is just as good as 1 big spell.

[Shamburger]

That's only true if it has an internal CD. If it doesn't your argument falls apart because copying 3 small spells is just as good as 1 big spell.

That doesn't make sense at all.
Options:
1 - It has an ICD and is more beneficial to have a dps with higher damage attacks use it as the proc is not likely to be wasted on a low damage spell.
2 - It doesn't have a icd and it is still more beneficial for a burst dps to have it. Why would you want to have 3 small damage spells proc over 3 large damage spells?

[Deleted]

spell.
2 - It doesn't have a icd and it is still more beneficial for a burst dps to have it. Why would you want to have 3 small damage spells proc over 3 large damage spells?

Because it wouldn't copy 3 big spells with the same frequency as it would copy 3 little spells. This is completely oversimplifying things but if you give it, say a 10% proc rate with no CD on it, it would have exactly the same usefulness for every class out there. Some classes would have more RNG than others but it would still be of exact equal usefulness when averaged out. They key phrase is when you average it out. You can't look at 1 moment when a Scorch got copied and it compare it to one moment when an Arcane Blast got copied and somehow arrive at a conclusion from that alone.

I don't even know what you're referring to as "little" spells anyway. Every caster DPS I can think of has it's higher priority spells and it's lower priority spells, and they would all get copied with the same frequency relative to how often they are cast. If it has no internal CD it would be a flat 10% bonus to any class when averaged out, period.

[Iron Dome]

Explain the new legendary, where u get it, and what it does.

[Count Zero]

Collect DPS charts from all ranged classes in BiS gear, with and without legendary.

Here's where this falls apart and unquantifiable abstractions simply must enter the equation:

The player who joined your guild a month ago and is the top dps beneficiary from a mathematical perspective ... is worth zero if he/she takes the staff and jets for a different guild. It's a negative, in fact, because of the wasted investment that could have gone to someone else.

---------- Post added 2011-05-30 at 01:51 AM ----------

That doesn't make sense at all.
Options:
1 - It has an ICD and is more beneficial to have a dps with higher damage attacks use it as the proc is not likely to be wasted on a low damage spell.
2 - It doesn't have a icd and it is still more beneficial for a burst dps to have it. Why would you want to have 3 small damage spells proc over 3 large damage spells?

We have no idea how it works, to the extent it's pointless to speculate right now. Blizz will do their best to ensure it's as close as possible to being balanced for most specs. I think there's a good chance there will be a total damage cap, eg a huge-hit class will max out in one hit for the ICD, whereas a dot class will have several spells adding up to the cap copied.

[rabbimojo]

Though it's not really in line with what the OP was asking (afaict, that was more about human/social factors), how the staff functions can still have a big effect on which class gains the most DPS out of it.

We don't know what, exactly, it can copy. Duplication/'casting' effects in game have had a strange history, and I'd be surprised if this is any different.

E.g.: Suppose it can just copy any damage spell you cast.
-How does that impact channeled spells?
-What about DOTs, especially "limited to one" dots like Devouring Plague?
*If it does duplicate DOTs, can those duplicates proc things, such as SW:P proccing orbs, or Flame Shock resetting LvB cooldown?
-Do the procs crit in line with their source spell, or do they function separately?
-Can the procs trigger effects like our normal spells, e.g., does a copied pyroblast crit proc ignite?
etc.

It isn't hard to imagine some pretty broken outcomes for certain specs, either in terms of being OP or useless. (e.g., if it doesn't work with channels, it will be crap for SPs)

The staff could work in a very simple way, and is maybe most likely to: It casts a completely separate spell which deals as much damage as the spell it's duplicating would.

[Huntingbear_grimbatol]

Because it wouldn't copy 3 big spells with the same frequency as it would copy 3 little spells. This is completely oversimplifying things but if you give it, say a 10% proc rate with no CD on it, it would have exactly the same usefulness for every class out there. Some classes would have more RNG than others but it would still be of exact equal usefulness when averaged out. They key phrase is when you average it out. You can't look at 1 moment when a Scorch got copied and it compare it to one moment when an Arcane Blast got copied and somehow arrive at a conclusion from that alone.

I don't even know what you're referring to as "little" spells anyway. Every caster DPS I can think of has it's higher priority spells and it's lower priority spells, and they would all get copied with the same frequency relative to how often they are cast. If it has no internal CD it would be a flat 10% bonus to any class when averaged out, period.

Even if it had 10% chance to proc the internal cd would still factor in, if blizzard isnt stupid they will slap a 20-30sec internal CD on the proc and 2min on the activate. Example, arcane mage crits for 100k, staff procs 2 times per minute and that's 150-200k damage more over 60 seconds.
150.000 / 60 = 2.5k dps.
200.000 / 60 = 3.33~k dps.

See? even at 30second internal CD the proc is going to be a MASSIVE dps increase, even for a legendary.

Now let's assume a Shaman has the staff, Highest shaman crit is in the 70-80k range and lowest is 25k ish with lightning bolt, getting a proc on the lighting bolt will severly gimp the effect of the staff. Arcane mages and possbily moonkins and destruction warlocks will benefit most from this staff, you can't deny it. And no im not playing either class, i couldn't care less about it honestly but from a hardcore raider that wants the most out of the staff we're giving to one of our casters Mage/Boomkin/Lock is getting it first.

[Deleted]

Without ICD it is just the same like crit chance, it is a chance to double the damage of a spell and we all know that DoT classes generally benefit about the same from crit as other casters. Only talents make it more useful for certain classes like ignite for Fire mages.

So without an ICD it is just about the stats of the staff. Arcane mages will benefit most from the high amounts of intellect, but others will benefit more from the haste rating. In the end it is not much of a difference I think, maybe slightly better for arcane mages because intellect is really very strong for them.

Edit: I see no reason why there should be an ICD. Without ICD it is fair, all classes will benefit the same. ICDs make sense for procs like power torrent, because classes who deal damage more frequently would benefit much more from power torrent than other classes without an ICD. They would proc power torrent more often, with an ICD this advantage is much smaller. But why having an ICD for the legendary when all classes will benefit the same without the ICD but won´t benefit the same with the ICD?

[Iron Dome]

Only 1 person in a guild can get it???

[Kikazz]

i know most guilds are going with thwere higehst dps caster with most show ups and input and progression hel;p for the guild.

---------- Post added 2011-05-30 at 02:16 AM ----------

Only 1 person in a guild can get it???

no hes taling about the first person in his guild to get it.

[Iron Dome]

i know most guilds are going with thwere higehst dps caster with most show ups and input and progression hel;p for the guild.

---------- Post added 2011-05-30 at 02:16 AM ----------



no hes taling about the first person in his guild to get it.

is this a guild effort that requires a guild to complete it (i know certain parts do, i think).
so teh first person has it, now what he's saying? he's saying that there shud be a math formula to hand it out???

[SuperomegaOP]

There's not much to "mathematically" determine. The legendary copies a spell and attacks your target with it. Therefore it would most likely best benefit classes with large single damage spell/attacks, e.g. mage and boomkin.

u forget ele shamans.... imo the staff should go to them... becasue their mastery is basically the staff proc itself.... and last i heard a staff can procs of a shamans mastery copy of their spell and their orginial spell...

so shamans have double the chance of getting the proc depending on how much mastery they have than any other caster.... if u have pretty good master and some nice RNG/luck then u could get 4 lava bursts at the same time...

lets say u get a 50k crit with a lava burst... and another half 1 with your mastery... thats 75k right their.... and if u get double proc from the staff u could get a total of 150k dmg.... at most a shamans current dps would double if he/she had the staff....

[ttkyle]

. at most a shamans current dps would double if he/she had the staff....

Going to say no on this one.

[Deleted]

u forget ele shamans.... imo the staff should go to them... becasue their mastery is basically the staff proc itself.... and last i heard a staff can procs of a shamans mastery copy of their spell and their orginial spell...

so shamans have double the chance of getting the proc depending on how much mastery they have than any other caster.... if u have pretty good master and some nice RNG/luck then u could get 4 lava bursts at the same time...

lets say u get a 50k crit with a lava burst... and another half 1 with your mastery... thats 75k right their.... and if u get double proc from the staff u could get a total of 150k dmg.... at most a shamans current dps would double if he/she had the staff....

It is the same problem again. It doesn´t matter wether you can have two lava bursts or not. Your spec is balanced around that proc. Even if there would be a spec that casts 30.000 spells at the same time having the chance to cast 60.000 spells with the staff this spec wouldn´t benefit more from it than others. The staff will proc more often, but it will hit for less if the spec does about the same dps as other classes. 1% chance to double the damage on every damage effect means 1% more damage overall, no matter if you have one spell that deals 1,000,000 damage or 1,000,000 spells that deal one damage.

[LaplaceNoMa]

From the proc's point of view: mage
From the stats weight value: mage

[Deleted]

Even if it had 10% chance to proc the internal cd would still factor in,...........math........

Before you quote me read my actual posts -_- The very first thing I said is that an ICD can affect what classes it's better or worse for. If there ISN'T an ICD then it's the same for everyone.

I think it will have a 30-45 second ICD, although I wish it wouldn't. And of course a 10% proc rate would be far too high for a no ICD formula, 1-2% would be more realistic. Either way I think the argument is moot, I'm giving the legendary to the best player regardless of what class they play.