Is SWTOR being too strict by sticking to the holy trinity?

[Deleted]

When reading about SWTOR I can't help but feel that the whole "holy-trinity" system (Tanks/Healers/DPS) seems so artificially "forced" upon the universe and game mechanics.

While I can almost understand the concept of "tanking" in a fantasy universe, in a Sci-Fi world with laser guns and lightsabers, it seems unnatural.

Somehow I feel Bioware is being too conservative about their whole game-mechanics and are scared of moving away too far from the established MMO standards. I can understand this from an investment point of view, wanting to minimize risks with SWTOR rumored to be one of the most expensive video-games ever made. However I also feel like it could end up hurting the MMO in the long run.

Overall I feel that even more than Guild Wars 2, SWTOR lends itself to a "trinity-free" system with each (advanced) class having their unique play-style, yet no predefined roles. Instead, every class has the ability to DPS in their own way, while supporting their group with various abilities.

I think that type of game-play would feel a lot more appropriate for the STAR WARS universe while still keeping combat fun and tactical.

[Deleted]

they're going for wow lá sci-fi with voiceovers all over the place, nothing more nothing less.

and the tank, healer and dps system works just fine, people like specialising

[Cellery]

I'm personally concerned with the healers because that's what I do--and all of the healers in TOR-land seem to be more like the disc priest in WoW. Sure, your job may be primarily healing, but you can dps halfway okayish (like 25% of a dps class/spec) and you're doing more than just sitting around filling up boxes. That's my personal impression. So maybe there's the trinity of roles, but by the same token, the classes themselves seem much more... grey area than black-and-white.

Edit: Also, the specialization and talent trees seem to give you the option of being even further into the grey area.

[doesnotcare]

yes, personally i would prefer to see an mmo with a class system similar to diablo, where the classes differ so much that there is no dps, tank, heal class theres just i guess dps but then you could spec certain ways and be able to take more damage then other people or spec another way and do something else, the perfect example of what im talking about is like when you could go sorc and dump a shit ton of points into that enchant spell that made you weapon uber, then you would get melee gear mostly dex and teleport around and one shot smack people.

i would really like to see an mmo with class diversity and none of this dps heal tank roles only mentality, if every class dps's then the developers come up with more creative ways to dps

im not saying its particularly a bad thing because its too much of a risk for EA to take with this much money invested in the game. but at the same time there was never really a healing person in the star wars universe other than medical droids, before you say sith healing, there has never been anything in the lore about it so adding it now just seems really cheesy, maybe a potion system like in diablo would work better like med gel or some shit forgot what it was called back in kotor

but it would be rather interesting to play a game with something new and interesting not just following the typical tank heal dps etc.

[Pool of the Dead]

I'm personally concerned with the healers because that's what I do--and all of the healers in TOR-land seem to be more like the disc priest in WoW. Sure, your job may be primarily healing, but you can dps halfway okayish (like 25% of a dps class/spec) and you're doing more than just sitting around filling up boxes. That's my personal impression. So maybe there's the trinity of roles, but by the same token, the classes themselves seem much more... grey area than black-and-white.

Edit: Also, the specialization and talent trees seem to give you the option of being even further into the grey area.

I think it is a good thing, i fucking hate healing in WoW, where you just sit there waiting for someone to take damage, or spamming the same heal over and over to keep them topped up, With the way SW:tOR is doing it, if you have a Good tank, and a Good healer, you will basically have the equivalent of 3 dps in the group, instead of just 2 dps and a healer and tank, as the tank and healer can output some damage aswell, and make things run more smoothly.

[Cellery]

Exactly, Krethos. I re-read what I said and I guess I didn't explicitly say "I like this." But I meant that ;P On the healer q&a questions, a bunch of people were like "WAAAAH, I wanna have a smite spec too!" So I figure TOR gives them that ;P Except in a less priesty way ;P

[Edge-]

Trinity exists because it works and there hasn't really been any system for a game like this that has been proven to work (GW2 hasn't come out yet so we can't judge it). It's a relatively easy system to create and balance, so it's low maintenance.

[Simonzi]

I find it quite the opposite. I'm scared of an MMO that doesn't base it's core off that. It's the one thing that's turning me off about GW2 (although I'll still probably try it, never did play GW1 though). I feel a game without a tank/healer/dps setup works fine for something like Diablo-esque hack'n'slash games, but not for a full blown MMO.

[Weightless]

It's not a bad idea to stick with a system that is known and loved and has worked for 20 years. There is nothing wrong with the holy trinity. Hell, everyone on these forums has raided one time or another and has enjoyed it one time or another, in a game that used this "holy trinity". Don't tell me you didn't enjoy it.

[Trollsbane]

I'm glad TOR went with the "grey area" trinity. I like tanks and healers. I like to play these roles. My hang-up about GW2 is the (and I'm not bashing, because I am excited to play it) lack of the trinity. I fear it trivializes group combat. Team work almost goes out the window if you truly only need to worry about yourself. You dps, you dodge, you heal yourself. That's great in a single player game, especially a hack and slash genre.

But in an MMO, I want to rely on, and be relied on, by my group. 50 people all fighting the same boss, but not caring about eachother because all you need to survive is yourself, just doesn't strike the correct chord to me. Dodge single target attacks, get hit by AoE, heal self, repeat. It's worrisome, and not surprising GW2 won't have classic raiding end-game. Augmenting the archer behind you by throwing up a wall of flame to shoot through just doesn't seem like enough teamwork.

With the trinity, I know what I am getting, and that is group content that I must rely on others to survive. And I'm a fan of that.

[Edge-]

My hang-up about GW2 is the (and I'm not bashing, because I am excited to play it) lack of the trinity. I fear it trivializes group combat. Team work almost goes out the window if you truly only need to worry about yourself. You dps, you dodge, you heal yourself. That's great in a single player game, especially a hack and slash genre.

I was worried about the same thing, then I read some of the responses from the media that played the dungeon and had some similar concerns. The teamwork/group play apparently comes from coordinating when to swap weapons (skillsets) for more support, CC, or different types of damage while in combat. From what I saw, it didn't seem to be a complete FFA with everybody doing there own thing, it actually took them a bit to get used to the new system of working together.

That being said, whether it will really work out in dungeons, we shall see.

[Tore]

Trinity never made sense from a logical perspective, regardless of whether it fits into the universe or not. It doesn't matter if you're killing Ogres or Droids, a system where the enemy focuses one guy instead of everyone doing the actual killing makes no logical sense.

That said, it makes gameplay sense so people don't usually care that much. Yeah, we know that in reality there would be no "taunts" and they;d probably take out the healers first. But that wouldn't be compelling gameplay, so people tend to forgive it.

I honestly don't consider it much of a dealbreaker whether a game has trinity or not. To me GW2 lacking trinity is just a feature like any other that may or may not be successful. I hope for the sake of competition in the MMO market that it is successful.

[Trollsbane]

I was worried about the same thing, then I read some of the responses from the media that played the dungeon and had some similar concerns. The teamwork/group play apparently comes from coordinating when to swap weapons (skillsets) for more support, CC, or different types of damage while in combat. From what I saw, it didn't seem to be a complete FFA with everybody doing there own thing, it actually took them a bit to get used to the new system of working together.That being said, whether it will really work out in dungeons, we shall see.

Yeah, but media being thrown in at high level without really knowing what to do doesn't give an accurate feel for real play with players that have played that class for a long time and know what they are doing. Just like TOR, people were smashing against a wall on their level 32 flashpoint, but the beta testers are having no problems with it. Still, I really do hope it works out well.

[lunaspike]

yes, personally i would prefer to see an mmo with a class system similar to diablo, where the classes differ so much that there is no dps, tank, heal class theres just i guess dps but then you could spec certain ways and be able to take more damage then other people or spec another way and do something else, the perfect example of what im talking about is like when you could go sorc and dump a shit ton of points into that enchant spell that made you weapon uber, then you would get melee gear mostly dex and teleport around and one shot smack people.

i would really like to see an mmo with class diversity and none of this dps heal tank roles only mentality, if every class dps's then the developers come up with more creative ways to dps

im not saying its particularly a bad thing because its too much of a risk for EA to take with this much money invested in the game. but at the same time there was never really a healing person in the star wars universe other than medical droids, before you say sith healing, there has never been anything in the lore about it so adding it now just seems really cheesy, maybe a potion system like in diablo would work better like med gel or some shit forgot what it was called back in kotor

but it would be rather interesting to play a game with something new and interesting not just following the typical tank heal dps etc.

Then please, feel free not to play. You will not be missed in the slightest bit. As for your last snide comment about EA risking money, yeah I'm sure that's why they are doing the system the way they are. You are completely wrong about "sith healing". If you bothered to go do some research on the lore you might know this. For that matter there have been plenty of accounts of "Jedi healing", though I doubt you bothered to look into that either. Quick run over to wookieepedia and try to dig something up saying I'm wrong. Might want to do some research into Sith Magic.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Rin_Shuuir

Quick example

You don't like it, well again don't bother playing it.

As for the OP, their "Holy Trinity" isn't what you might expect. Sure you may have a healer, you may have a tank, and you may have dps. That doesn't mean they have to conform to the ways others games have implemented them. You are basing a judgment off something that is shown in WoW/RIFT etc.

Let me give you an example to think about. Ranged Tanking, now this isn't some little cheese fight in WoW/RIFT. That changes things quite a bit, by allowing the tank to use LoS more effectively. It's still a "tank", but now it's not just standing at the crotch of some giant thing. You are moving around, using abilities etc. Healers that can deal damage also, and dps that are actually mobile and an important part of the fight (compare to WoW style where it's boring being dps).

Just because they may get labeled as something, doesn't mean that they are the same as WoW.


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/X-win...em_for_a_Rogue[COLOR="red"]

---------- Post added 2011-07-09 at 10:36 AM ----------



Oh and from GuildWars2's own website

You could say instead of DPS/heal/tank, we have our own trinity of damage, support, and control,

http://www.guildwars2.com/en/the-gam...healing-death/

So it isn't that they are completely abandoning the idea of roles. They are simply allowing everyone a chance at all of it. Which is a good thing, and very much like SWTOR is doing. Through use of companions there will never be a need to wait for a lfg queue (again both games have this). The systems are much closer than you think they are OP.

[Deleted]

This "trinity" has been around for years before WoW, and even before it's predecessors, and it's been working really well. It's a simple, yet interesting system, where people have specific tasks in a group fight. Honestly I've never seen people complaining about it before GW2...it's like a new internet fashion.

Some people find healers strange in the star wars universe...but it's just because of their ignorance. It's not being forced on the franchise, jedi and sith have been healing through the force for a long time. Also there is that healing substance, Kolto.

As for tanks, in this game there will be "normal", avoidance and ranged tanks. Ranged tanks are perfect for a Sci-Fi genre, and normal/avoidance tanks are fine, since it's Star Wars, and there are plenty of melee fighters with lightsabers and force powers.

[Deleted]

The trinity is to MMOs like the reticule is to FPSs. Sure, you can make a game without it, and it might be great, fair play to you, but I play the game for the playstyle, and I know I enjoy the setup of the trinity. I'll pick up GW2 and probably enjoy it, but just slight improvements on an already excellent system sounds much better to me than a complete overhaul.

[ManiaCCC]

Trinity system was created because of technical limitations many years ago.. IMO..it's pretty sad we still see trinity basically in unchanged form.

I am not saying have roles is wrong or bad.. but current trinity roles are too much pigeonholed into one task... I am pretty disappoint by bioware approach but we will see.

[mickybrighteyes]

I was under the impression that you can't really get rid of the trinity, hell we players would gravitate to the trinity regardless even if it wasn't already present.

If there are group encounters there will always be support, primary targets, and everyone else. We gravitate into those distinctions in group play in the face of large "boss" type encounters. The second you put in specializations for being able to take more dmg, or deal more dmg... you create the Tank and Dmg dealing portions of the trinity.

[ManiaCCC]

I was under the impression that you can't really get rid of the trinity, hell we players would gravitate to the triliogy regardless even if it wasn't already present.

it seems that people are understanding trinity in two different ways.

First group understood trinity as setting of three roles in MMORPG.. someone who is tough (tank)...someone who support group (healer) and someone who focus on dealing damage.. In this case you can't rid trinity completely ...ok..you can..creating more roles..but it would just make things much more difficult.

But IMO..true meaning of trinity in this context are options and tasks.. If whole support role is just about spamming heals, and if tank's only task is glue mobs on him.. this is current trinity. And this is something what should be changed... but from informations we got, Bioware is not doing that...yet.

[smashzu]

The "trinity" isn't an mmo mechanic.

In ancient times, you would stick your heavily armored foot troops (tanks) up front, archers/slingers (dps) in the mid, and support (heals/debuffs/etc) in the back.

Why should a game change 1000+ years of combat tactics to appease you?

---------- Post added 2011-07-09 at 03:16 PM ----------

Trinity system was created because of technical limitations many years ago.. IMO..it's pretty sad we still see trinity basically in unchanged form.

No, it wasn't.
You're so wrong I can't even say anything back... except that you're wrong.