Why is mastery weak for PoH usage? The math:

[Siri]

Assume 2s cast time. First group cast, 6s Hot applied. 2nd group cast 2s. 4s remaining, first group again 2s. 2s of it left. So yes you're clipping 2 in theory.

Assume 2s cast, 2 seconds pass before next heal lands, that's one tick. Heal another group in between, that's 4 seconds passed. 4 seconds = 2 ticks, 1 tick left.
One tick lost. In theory, you're clipping ONE.

That's not even mentioning the amount of haste you need to get here. Do you have any idea how much haste rating you need to get PoH to a 2.0 second cast, even with 5% haste buff and 3% haste from talents?
It's 1995 haste with both those buffs.
2140 with 2% from talents, and few take more than 2/3 darkness.
2439 with 0 points in darkness.

For almost all Priests clipping more than 1 tick is unreasonable while PoHing more than one group

You're burning mana that isn't needed.

I'm ending the fight with mana I could have used.

The only argument worth making is for DA stacking.

Overwriting them and not letting them tick = higher hps than standing around doing nothing, waiting for hots to tick.
If you don't run out of mana, there's zero reason to wait.
The side that only has one argument is yours, and this is the only valid argument worth making for your side of things:
"I run out of mana, letting hots tick is more mana efficient"

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

For both of these points, in essence, HST is the best stat when stats actually matter.

thats exactly the point! you cant argue that "whenever you don't chaincast, it doesn't matter"
because in the situation, where you aren't chaincasting, and it really doesn't matter, your mastery won't matter ither. in such a situation it's quite redundant to discuss about stats and their worth...

I know it didn't mention that explicitly, but in the first post, I was only adressing that Haste is much better HPS stat when you're using PoH.

The "Haste costs mana!" is a different discussion. But even if haste would indirectly increase your manacosts by the same amount it increases your heals, I would still pick it over mastery, just because of the sheer hps superiority.
Not to mention that Haste affects nearly all of your heals, and not only such a limited amount of spells as mastery does. (the plural of "spell" itself is a great exaggeration :-D)

[Tichy]

thats exactly the point! you cant argue that "whenever you don't chaincast, it doesn't matter"
because in the situation, where you aren't chaincasting, and it really doesn't matter, your mastery won't matter ither. in such a situation it's quite redundant to discuss about stats and their worth...

However, per cast, Crit and Mastery are going to do more for you. For example, you need 5 PoHs to top the raid off and you have 15 seconds. Haste isn't needed to accomplish this any faster, but haste is NOT equivalent to crit and mastery in these cases, because both Crit and mastery create bigger DA shields with the same amount of casts, which is better for mitigating the damage that is coming in at a later time. Moreover, it's not optimal to just spam another two PoHs to have more DA procs but causing PoH to do 100% overheal.

For both of these points, in essence, HST is the best stat when stats actually matter. In the cases you are describing when HST is "devalued," it isn't that haste is "bad," it's that the relative value of stats are meaningless, which naturally devalues the most desirable stat the most.

Not necessarily. Crit and Mastery both have value even after the healing is complete. Theoretically, haste does too, but comes at the expense of forcing overheal to create a low shielding effect.

Absolutely true. However, shield spam is not only "not as common or necessary," but plainly impractical. To argue the relativity of secondary stat weights by bringing up an impractical playstyle is a bit superfluous.

By "Shield Spam," I meant shielding a select group of people in preparation for a large damaging attack...Not the wrath style of Shield X9 + ProM for the entire fight. You can "spam shields" for preparing for a Rhyolith stomp, and haste is rather superfluous for that, while Mastery would not be.

All true, except a good priest will not cast PoH when it will drastically overheal. In this case you're better off using Penance, GH, Heal, or FH [or Atonement on a situational basis], which all, consequently, scale superiorly with HST.

Ah, but PoH overheals, a lot, because not all 5 targets need it, but maybe 3 or 4 of the 5. You are not better using Gheal, Penance, FH, Heal or Atonement in these cases for the following reasons:

Gheal tends to overheal because of heal sniping and the size of the heal in relation of the health of raiders and deficits that abilities cause.
Penance is usually saved for the tank, just because of the speed and size of the heal.
Heal is a skill that shouldn't be used in a competitive raid environment. Or any raid environment. Ever.
Atonement is a smart heal and melee limited (I know you said situational, but for the most part, Atonement is like the sprinkles on an ice cream sundae, it's a nice addition, but it is not the main component of smiting.
Flash Heal is rather mana costly for its size if used just to get someone topped (unless they are in danger of dying obviously.)

And lastly, all 5 of those heals are single target, which makes them unoptimal, depending on the situation.

[Deleted]

If haste is better why top priests ( like 85% of em ) on WoL are stacking mastery ?

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

Apiss, read the thread title. I'm just saying that Mastery is weak for PoH usage. does that imply, that stacking haste is better than mastery? obviously not.
maybe its just because these top rated priests shield a lot? and did probably nothing else than shield and PoH to get in the top rated area?

[Deleted]

This is a general misunderstanding. You don't run oom faster due to having haste > mastery. Mastery scales poorly with Divine Aegis but scales well with PW:S. This means the only reason to stack mastery over haste in firelands is if you are playing a bubblebot. Playing bubblebot will run you oom more than anything.

Sorry but this is incorrect. Haste will run you oom faster due to the other heals healing for more. Ofc you may not heal for as much in a shorter period, but you will go oom faster for the same amount of healing done with more haste, that's common sense. PWS is still the bread and butter of disc atm, sure you may not stack it like back in the old days, but it should still be your most used spell.

[Deleted]

This thread and the discussion therein seems to be missing one important factor of Cata healing:

Throughput is not the be all and end all of the world.


Haste has always been the best secondary stat for raw throughput. The high ratio of rating-to-haste and the fact that it affects all spells before soft caps will ensure this.

What you're failing to take into account is things like:-

1. People not spiking low due to bigger DA shields on them. This helps to ensure health levels stay relatively constant, allowing your raid to plan their heals more effectively. A single person dropping low on health will result in healers switching to them quickly to stop them dying, potentially weakening AoE healing in the process, and possibly even throwing out inefficient spells which will hurt their mana.

2. The mana issues involved. Unlike most of the posters, I'm not throwing out extreme scenarios where you go oom because you stacked too much haste, or anything of the sort. However, I defy any healer to disagree that less mana for the same healing = good. Also note that the less mana you find yourself using, the less spirit you need and therefore the bigger budget you have for secondary stats in the first place.

3. All secondary stats, for disc at least, compliment one another rather nicely. In particular, given the big crit heal buff in 4.2.0, mastery is nice for ensuring a crit heal doesn't only bring someone to full, it KEEPS them at full.

4. Yes, PWS will oom you if you spam it. But it still has HUGE throughput given the cast time, assuming the entire shield is used. And compared to other healers' emergency heals it's fairly efficient; if your raid is trained to spot PWS/weakened soul and plan accordingly, they can push through efficient, slow heals on spiking targets rather than inefficient fast ones thanks to PWS.
And the synergy with PWS makes mastery stronger. Of course.



No, I'm not advocating one stat over the other. I'm saying that balance is necessary. Personally, I'm prioritising crit as slightly higher than the other two spells despite the slightly reduced throughput on the grounds that through DA and reduced mana expenditure it'll come out on top for utility regardless of what the meters say. But stacking any one secondary will, to my eyes, pidgeonhole you at best.



EDIT : Adding TL;DR


TL;DR : Balance. One stat might be better than another for your playstyle, but you'll still do better with a little of this and a little of that.

[Primernova]

POINTLESS CONVERSATION!

Holy deserves Spirit Cloth in Firelands, nothing else will do.

It's a hotfix ASAP and an APOLOGY from the scum of the earth, GC.

I'm ok with new crit/haste, over mastery but nothing off bosses? This is a new WoW low.

What? This is about how Mastery affects Prayer of Healing. ~ Ultima

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

This thread and the discussion therein seems to be missing one important factor of Cata healing:

Throughput is not the be all and end all of the world.

True, very true. But that's not what this thread is about anyway. Just saying that Mastery is weak for PoH usage. in a pure HPS sense. much weaker than haste or crit. but thats all I wanted to say.
There are players that chose Mastery, because its great for PoH, because it increases shields. And I just want to show these people, that the effect of Mastery on PoH-DA-shields is very week compared to haste (and even crit, but sense/nonsense of using crit as a AE healer is a different topic) when it comes to a pure HPS perspective.

The high ratio of rating-to-haste and the fact that it affects all spells before soft caps will ensure this.

ever checked the pure HPS gain from crit for Disc, since 4.2 ? even with base mastery and thus 272% crit multiplier, crit is now better than haste, in a pure theoretical hps perspective. and with higher mastery, crit goes ahead even further

[ramennoodleking]

If haste is better why top priests ( like 85% of em ) on WoL are stacking mastery ?

Rankings for healing mean jack shit. There are so many factors involved: how bad (or good) the healers you are playing with are, how much unnecessary damage the raid is taking, how slow (or fast) your dps are killing the boss, how many raid cooldowns are being used properly, and how many external mana CDs you are receiving.And I say this unbiased, because I hold plenty of top 25 world parses stacking haste. But I admit that some of it had to do with perfect storms of those factors above.

[[-Spiritus-]]

However, per cast, Crit and Mastery are going to do more for you. For example, you need 5 PoHs to top the raid off and you have 15 seconds. Haste isn't needed to accomplish this any faster, but haste is NOT equivalent to crit and mastery in these cases, because both Crit and mastery create bigger DA shields with the same amount of casts, which is better for mitigating the damage that is coming in at a later time. Moreover, it's not optimal to just spam another two PoHs to have more DA procs but causing PoH to do 100% overheal.

If I only need to cast 5 PoHs in 15sec, then the stat weight I choose is meaningless, unless a healer is under EXTREME mana constraint [like, Vezax style] or PoH all of a sudden becomes incredibly expensive. If 5 PoHs in 15sec was standard fair in WoW healing, I would agree completely that MST or CRT would be more desirable. Why speed up the cast time of your spells when the base cast time is sufficient for most, if not all cases?

The sticky wicket is when you have to cast 5 PoHs in 10sec. If that throughput is needed, there is no obtainable amount of MST or CRT that will guarantee success. First, because MST scales too poorly with DA & second because having enough crit + playing the odds to get 1 crit on each person in 4 casts is not the kind of game you wish to play as a healer.

So, do I gear for "optimal efficiency" during light damage or relaxed time constraint situations, or do I gear for when sh*t hits the fan?

Not necessarily. Crit and Mastery both have value even after the healing is complete. Theoretically, haste does too, but comes at the expense of forcing overheal to create a low shielding effect.

See Above: CRT & MST have 0 value if the heal never lands and heals matter most when death is imminent.

By "Shield Spam," I meant shielding a select group of people in preparation for a large damaging attack...Not the wrath style of Shield X9 + ProM for the entire fight. You can "spam shields" for preparing for a Rhyolith stomp, and haste is rather superfluous for that, while Mastery would not be.

Blanketing the raid before the stomp? Obviously possible & viable in 10m, obviously not in 25. In either case, whatever MST you have, stacked or no, PW:S will satisfy its purpose for this situation.

Ah, but PoH overheals, a lot, because not all 5 targets need it, but maybe 3 or 4 of the 5. You are not better using Gheal, Penance, FH, Heal or Atonement in these cases for the following reasons:
Gheal tends to overheal because of heal sniping and the size of the heal in relation of the health of raiders and deficits that abilities cause.
Penance is usually saved for the tank, just because of the speed and size of the heal.
Heal is a skill that shouldn't be used in a competitive raid environment. Or any raid environment. Ever.
Atonement is a smart heal and melee limited (I know you said situational, but for the most part, Atonement is like the sprinkles on an ice cream sundae, it's a nice addition, but it is not the main component of smiting.
Flash Heal is rather mana costly for its size if used just to get someone topped (unless they are in danger of dying obviously.)

And lastly, all 5 of those heals are single target, which makes them unoptimal, depending on the situation.

PoH is still an efficient cast even when 2 in the target group will receive full overheal, as long as the other 3 receive none. If NO groups in the raid satisfy this condition, then yes, absolutely you should be going to your single target heals.

Gheal doesn't magically overheal, it overheals either due to poor communication combined with slow reaction time [or low HST] or a priest who isn't comfortable with how much of a health deficit is needed for it to be efficient.

As a raid healing Disc priest, penance is a tool in the box. It isn't a tool for your tank healer. Can you help your tank healer with Penance? Sure, absolutely. I encourage it. However, if the tank dies, the reason from the tank healer shouldn't be "Dude, the raid healing Disc priest used Penance on the lock."

I never said Heal wasn't situational, it's just that it can, at times, even for a raid healer, be a quality cast [from top 25m heroic parses]:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/0...?s=1127&e=1842
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=4745&e=5067
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...=20221&e=20612

Atonement is what it is, but can be a little better than "sprinkles on a sundae" in some cases. H. MD Stag in T12 comes to mind.

Flash Heal is what it is. Both Penance & PW:S are a better casts for the purpose, but if WS is up and Penance is down, FH is all you got left.

The point is, Overheal only happens when a priest's spell selection or reaction time is poor [or bad heal comms]. Things don't overheal intrinsically by themselves.

[ramennoodleking]

Or binding heal, spiritus

[Deleted]

Sorry but this is incorrect. Haste will run you oom faster due to the other heals healing for more. Ofc you may not heal for as much in a shorter period, but you will go oom faster for the same amount of healing done with more haste, that's common sense. PWS is still the bread and butter of disc atm, sure you may not stack it like back in the old days, but it should still be your most used spell.

If you use the same playstyle no matter if you stack mastery or haste then yes obviously you will most likely be casting more and thereby using more mana. But in a haste vs mastery discussion, stacking mastery>haste is done due to a playstyle that involves heavy shielding and mostly seen from disc in 25man raids.
Of course shield will almost always account for most healing done regardless of what you stack.

But probably the wrong thread I started this discussion in, since it's haste vs mastery for the Divine Aegis part of PoH. I just realised I got caught up in my own thoughts that I find it odd anyone would stack mastery based on Divine Aegis from PoH, when I was reply'ing in the first place. My apology

[Felade]

ever checked the pure HPS gain from crit for Disc, since 4.2 ? even with base mastery and thus 272% crit multiplier, crit is now better than haste, in a pure theoretical hps perspective. and with higher mastery, crit goes ahead even further

This is pretty much an incorrect statement for POH at least. If you do the math, Haste still gives POH more HPCT than the same amount of Crit, even in my gear (I recently converted to Disc from Holy and I have a haste heavy gearset). Someone who has already has a more balanced haste/crit ratio is going to get a lot more from haste than crit on this spell.

But in a haste vs mastery discussion, stacking mastery>haste is done due to a playstyle that involves heavy shielding and mostly seen from disc in 25man raids.

This is also incorrect. Shield spam and POH spam have about the same HPCT - they do about the same amount of healing for the amount of time you spend casting. However, POH is twice as efficient as Shield spam (10 HPM vs. 5 HPM approximately). Mastery or Haste (or crit) stacking doesn't change this. Since their HPCTs are roughly equal in pretty much all gear situations (assuming both are glyphed), but POH is so much more efficient, the only time shield spam makes sense is when you can add a significant amount of HPCT to POH using Shields - basically, by spamming shields right before a big hit to the entire raid. Shielding the raid is sort of like a raid wide flash heal that you have to cast before the damage goes out.

[[-Spiritus-]]

Or binding heal, spiritus

Or binding heal. See what happens when you take breaks?

[Mazi]

Or binding heal. See what happens when you take breaks?

who does that?!

[[-Spiritus-]]

who does that?!

People who (a) don't have time for x5day a week hardcore raiding anymore, (b) who's current guild full of veteran old farts who also didn't have time for x5day a week hardcore raiding took too large of a retirement hit going into Cata to survive, & (c) can't find a new guild full of veteran old farts who don't have time for x5day hardcore raiding that fits my schedule.

[Mazi]

People who (a) don't have time for x5day a week hardcore raiding anymore, (b) who's current guild full of veteran old farts who also didn't have time for x5day a week hardcore raiding took too large of a retirement hit going into Cata to survive, & (c) can't find a new guild full of veteran old farts who don't have time for x5day hardcore raiding that fits my schedule.

roflsauce


char limit >_>

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

This is pretty much an incorrect statement for POH at least.

really? I dought it...
Just tried it out myself: (had to respecc Disc, and in Holy gear with over over 17mastery, at 43% better shields => about 43% DA)
PoH noncrit: 6601 + 2831 DA = 9432
PoH crit: 13129 + 11177 DA = 24306
so a critical PoH gives me additional 14874 heal, which is 157% value of the non critical, that a critical hit produces.
Well to obtain 1% crit, we need 179 crit rating, resulting in 1.57% more heal
179 haste rating increase your healing by not quite 1.4%
And as far as my math knowledge goes, 1.57 > 1.4 => crit gives more additional heal, even for PoH in this example. at Base mastery, crit has worth about 1.52%, so you can assume it counts for every other case aswell.

[Felade]

really? I dought it...
Just tried it out myself: (had to respecc Disc, and in Holy gear with over over 17mastery, at 43% better shields => about 43% DA)
PoH noncrit: 6601 + 2831 DA = 9432
PoH crit: 13129 + 11177 DA = 24306
so a critical PoH gives me additional 14874 heal, which is 157% value of the non critical, that a critical hit produces.
Well to obtain 1% crit, we need 179 crit rating, resulting in 1.57% more heal
179 haste rating increase your healing by not quite 1.4%
And as far as my math knowledge goes, 1.57 > 1.4 => crit gives more additional heal, even for PoH in this example. at Base mastery, crit has worth about 1.52%, so you can assume it counts for every other case aswell.

I did discover an error that was causing me to undervalue crit a bit on my little spreadsheet, so at my current gear level Crit does in fact do better than Haste for POH. However, remember my gear is still focused on Holy which means I have quite alot of Haste (1207) and not very much Crit (475) so it makes sense. I wanted to ask this question again for a balanced setup - I took the average of my secondary stats which is about 900. At that more balanced level, Haste is actually still better.

Statistic	Rating	Increase	Adjusted
Disc Mastery	179.28	2.5%	71.71
Spellpower	93.45	1%	93.45
Haste	128.06	1%	128.06
Holy Mastery	179.28	1.25%	143.42
Disc Critical	179.28	.86%	208.47
Holy Critical	179.28	0.5%	358.56

This little chart. From EJ. I know it is outdated but I think we should be careful conflating a 1% increase of a particular stat with a 1% increase in healing. Is that 1% increase for all your spells? For just the spells that benefit from that stat? Just the spell you are talking about? Increasing Mastery by 2.5%, for instance (1 more point) does not necessarily mean that my healing will increase by 2.5%. With Disc especially, if my crit is low my mastery will not probably increase my overall healing average by 2.5%. Just thinking out loud - if you have a proof for otherwise I'd love to hear it.