What if Paladins Had an "Overpower" Ability?

[NotValidAnymore]

Maybe in PvE, but damage is not a problem in PvP, it's getting close to people so you can actually do damage.

That one "gap closer" you're talking about only works from 15+ yards. Which means you'll either keep running behind someone and never catch up, or they will have time to slow you somehow before you can reach them.

I suggested a "reverse Death Grip"-type of ability before, like some sort of hammer with chain that brings you to your target, but apparently no one cared.

EDIT: We could actually use more consistent damage as Retri in PvP too, but then we would probably be a bit too strong with wings.

[Gallahadd]

I'd like this could call it Righteous Revenge procs off block, dodge or parry, deals a small amount of damage and maybe a small heal?

[Veliane]

Holy Wrath should do 10% more damage per application of Censure, on targets that have it active, so it isn't a piss poor, high mana, long cooldown filler that makes people come up with these threads, nor becomes a howling blast.

[Exauras]

It's my understanding that Ret has the most trouble from kiters, which are mostly casters. Even if you got in melee range, they wouldn't dodge/parry you because your expertise would be more than enough t overwhelm their base amount. They'd never dodge/parry so you'd never get to use this ability.

[Deleted]

Overpower is pretty exclusive to Arms, I suppose it might be useful if TG in PvP.
Warriors also need rage for all those "fillers", a dodged auto attack = no rage ges for 3+ sec (except from taking dmg).
Paladins have mana AND holy power. And most of your abilities can't be avoided/mitigated/resisted anyway.
You also don't need to equip a shield for divine protection.
You also stun for twice as long as warriors.
You also can cleanse yourselves and have Hand of Freedom.
You also have a CD to increase dmg w/o increasing the dmg you take.
You also have the ability to use 3 HP to keep up a +30% holy dmg buff every 24 seconds (holy damage = none resisted)

As for tankadins.
AoE abilities don't have a max number of targets.
Avenger's Shield > Heroic Throw to pull multiple casters.
Still have Inquisition and Avenging Wrath, can stack, don't cause you to take more dmg (prot war popping recklessness for threat/burn usually means fast tank death)


Seriously, it's like we've gone from everything being hunter loot, to everything needs to be a paladin ability.


P.S. Rebuke is baseline, not that retadins ever used it was it wasn't, but FFS lrn2interrupt in pvp AND pve.

Person who does not play paladin here. All of our abilities can miss, only 3 of our abilities can't be dodged judgement holy wrath(lol no damage anyway) And hammer of wrath which can only be used when under aw or below 20%.
Aw can be dispelled. charge > hof and adding to that HoF can be dispelled. Cleanse costs a heafty amount of mana so while, in theory, it seems usefull but every class except paladins have spamable snares so cleanse will often just make you go oom. Divine protection is weaker than shield wall 20% as apose to 40%.

There is tons more to add to why you don't understand both classes.

For prot warriors only one cleave has a max number of targets the rest thunderclaps rend (spread via tc) and shockwave do not have a max number of targets. Typically warriors are the best AoE tanks now - l2p.

Aw can be used to tank with but inq has a 12 second duration or so without talents meaning you will lose a SoTr to get it up and probably you won't get the next SoTr before it falls off.

Both classes have their ups and downs and imo prot paladins are better than prot warriors but that is due to the way their cds work. However don't pretend to compare warriors with ret paladins since you have ALL the good things going for you there (more dps in pve more viable comps in pvp and easier to get to a high rating with)

Did I just get trolled?

[Exauras]

Typically warriors are the best AoE tanks now - l2p.

Not quite. Given that paladins can be perma-CTC capped and warriors rely on cds to do so, they're only just as good while they're cds/trinkets are active, which is short-term aoe tanking. Pallies can block better short term, because they can reduce every block by 50% with holy shield and don't have to rely on RNG during that time. In the long term, because they're always CTC capped, they're still better. Even if warriors have higher threat generation, both classes generate threat so well that pick up doesn't matter.

I'm not arguing 1 tank is better than the other, but AoE still belongs to pallies.

[Deleted]

Not quite. Given that paladins can be perma-CTC capped and warriors rely on cds to do so, they're only just as good while they're cds/trinkets are active, which is short-term aoe tanking. Pallies can block better short term, because they can reduce every block by 50% with holy shield and don't have to rely on RNG during that time. In the long term, because they're always CTC capped, they're still better. Even if warriors have higher threat generation, both classes generate threat so well that pick up doesn't matter.

I'm not arguing 1 tank is better than the other, but AoE still belongs to pallies.

But one tank is better than the other, and while that it's true that their survivability is higher I've yet to come across a single AoE pack where survivability is needed. Adding to that holy shield was changed it's not helping you get CTC capped it's just a plain 20% more blocked damage.

[MerinPally]

We have enough spells and abilities as it is. Add anymore and all the work blizzard did stripping us of cool utlity spells will be undone, rendering half the class work for cata, useless.

Why can't people accept that there are just going to be times when you can't do something. Maybe not "can't", that's too strong a word - There are ret paladins who are above the levels you're moaning are insurpassable, so yeah it's possible, just harder than with another class. Same as playing an enhancement shaman is harder than an assassination rogue. You may pull similar dps numbers, the shaman works harder to do it but so what? If it was exactly the same, all the classes would be identical.

Seriously, we don't need anymore buttons and if we do then I also demand Sacred Shield, Blessing of Light, different judgements, half of my seals back, Divine intervention and a small chocolate statue of jesus riding a goat.

[Exauras]

But one tank is better than the other, and while that it's true that their survivability is higher I've yet to come across a single AoE pack where survivability is needed. Adding to that holy shield was changed it's not helping you get CTC capped it's just a plain 20% more blocked damage.

I didn't say holy shield helped to get CTC capped. Pallies can CTC cap without it. I said in the short term with aoe packs its better because its a consistent 50% block vs rng blocks of 30% and 60%. I haven't done much raiding this xpac, but i remember in T11 there were times where you needed an aoe tank and Druids/DKs were at a disadvantage for that role because they couldn't block and were eating damage. i think it had to do with whelps for some fight.

basically, I see warriors as your all around tank. they have strengths from many of the classes, and some of the weaknesses.

pallies are the best blockers. Easy to block cap and a controlled increase block reducing ability. makes them good for multiple physical attackers

Druids are good single target tanks. From what I understand of it, a geared druid's savage defense can reduce more damage than a 30% block and they'll have enough crit to "block" often. the drawback is SD doesn't absorb multiple attacks.

DKs are good against magic. AMS reduces spell damage on a relatively short cd and the DS heal is the only ability that reconciles damage from a magic source. They can take baleroc's decimation blade and immediately get 20% life back in 1 attack where other tanks can't block it. the weakness is they passively take more physical damage.

There are strengths and weaknesses for each and I don't think anyone should argue for them to become more similar. Sure on certain fights one tank may outshine the others, but one jsut can't perform at all i'd say they're fine where they are.

[KahnOWhoopass]

Did I just get trolled?

Did you miss the part where I compared to paladins asking for abilities to hunters claiming everything as their loot?
Not a troll, just a pointed example that ZOMG CLASSES ARE DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER!!!! Who knew? Why weren't we told!?!

Paladins have far more class-wide abilities, that's what I was listing. Sure you can fine one ability somewhere in one war tree that can be compared, but that's just reaching then. If you want to pvp using a gap closer that can instantly attack w/an ability when parried (like the OP originally stated) play a gd warrior. You don't see enhancement shammies whining about every little difference between them and dks/wars/lolrets.

There are good and bad players of every class. I've see some good rets tear it up in PvE and PvP. If you're experiencing severe fail, the problem's probably between the keyboard and chair.

[Warcrafter]

Righteously Divine Strike of Justice

You forgot to put "Holy" in there :P

[Pallywhore]

I play a ret in both PVE and PVP and I have been for the last 4 years or so. I love the class itself and have no desire or time to level another toon and then attempt to gear it. Ret in PVP is one of the absolute worst classes. Competitive RBGs are near impossible to get into unless you "know someone" and even then its a stretch. A Warrior or DK do almost everything the same but do more then double the damage that a Ret can do. Look at the top 200 RBGers in North America, you will probably find a total of 2-3 rets on that list, if that. Noone wants one, we are easily replaceable with any other class and are more or less a space fille untill someone bigger or better shows up. Arena is an entirely different story that I will not get into, as it is even worse than RBGs. PVE is the same to a degree, give a warrior or a DK the same gear and I can gurantee they will do more damage then any ret.

I bit my tongue for a long time in regards to the problems with Rets, I have no suggestions of how to fix them, I just know something needs to be done so that we are a "desireable" class or atleast on par with every other class.

[Deleted]

They used ot have a chance to generate one, but it got changed for the better IMO.
Divine Purpose

Still, another attack, such as Judgement, that reliably gives a charge of Holy Power would help a lot. On Ragnaros for example we need to dps from the front of the boss --> lots of parries and lost HP's. Or Judgement could also proc Art of War, would help a little against kiting.

[meliancill]

Did you miss the part where I compared to paladins asking for abilities to hunters claiming everything as their loot?
Not a troll, just a pointed example that ZOMG CLASSES ARE DIFFERENT FROM EACH OTHER!!!! Who knew? Why weren't we told!?!

Paladins have far more class-wide abilities, that's what I was listing. Sure you can fine one ability somewhere in one war tree that can be compared, but that's just reaching then. If you want to pvp using a gap closer that can instantly attack w/an ability when parried (like the OP originally stated) play a gd warrior. You don't see enhancement shammies whining about every little difference between them and dks/wars/lolrets.

There are good and bad players of every class. I've see some good rets tear it up in PvE and PvP. If you're experiencing severe fail, the problem's probably between the keyboard and chair.

you are starting to piss me off... show this toon you have so much skill with that you can say we are fine, because none of the good rets are saying that rets are in a good spot, the only rets i have ever seen make an argument about being fine are one that only do pug bgs or ones that think questing is a skill. no one that does arena / rbg with any amount of skill can sit back and say rets are fine. i was left out of 3 rbg guilds BECAUSE i play ret. NO OTHER CLASS CAN SAY THAT, the only class getting left out of rbgs are rets, even an enhance shaman brings more pvp utility than a ret.

[Malthanis]

Just a warning, if this turns to a flame-fest I will start swinging the hammer.

[KahnOWhoopass]

you are starting to piss me off... show this toon you have so much skill with that you can say we are fine, because none of the good rets are saying that rets are in a good spot, the only rets i have ever seen make an argument about being fine are one that only do pug bgs or ones that think questing is a skill. no one that does arena / rbg with any amount of skill can sit back and say rets are fine. i was left out of 3 rbg guilds BECAUSE i play ret. NO OTHER CLASS CAN SAY THAT, the only class getting left out of rbgs are rets, even an enhance shaman brings more pvp utility than a ret.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression this thread was about paladins getting an ability like overpower; an unavoidable ability that becomes usable after a target avoids an attack. Apparently I was mistaken. Apparently I was mistaken. I've now inferred that because YOU got snubbed from RBGs, this thread must absolutely be about how unfair ret paladins are. I might have missed the memo, but while I'm not trying to piss you off, I fail to know why I should bother caring if I have. The core of what I've had to say is a) on topic of thread and b) countering the idea that just because ret paladins, DKs, and arms warriors each wield a 2 handed weapon, they all should have similar/same abilities.

NO OTHER CLASS CAN SAY THAT

No class can say that. Not even paladins. That's the point of dual spec, you see. It's quite possible if you are personally good at one spec in pve, but not so much in pvp, it's easy to have two specs to switch between. (RBGs need healers too.) Even if it's a pve and pvp ret spec, sometimes you need to move things around, especially if it's utility you're looking for. And really, anyone that insists on one and only one spec/build of a class, and outright refuses to adapt to group synergy, isn't going to get a lot of sympathy. Not being a team player makes it hard to find a team, 'ey?

In conclusion, to not seem completely obtuse, there are 30 class/spec combinations in the game, and that's not counting possible builds for each of those specs. All are different, and some are bound to be better in some situations than others.

[meliancill]

im not going to argue with you anymore, the point i was tring to make was that ret paladins when played at higher level pvp are far to easy to shut down simply threw dispell. my piont was that giving ret an attack any attack to use during the all to often down times that rets find themselfs in during pvp would help make them a player again in 2k + rbg groups.

this will be my last post on the matter so i suggest you let it die.

[zcks]

IDK about giving them overpower but paladins do need a more complete toolkit for protection & retribution roles.

One of the main problems with paladins is that it has a very small list of abilities when compared to other classes & that so many of its abilities are shared across all the specs, especially when it comes to self survivability & dps abilities (for ret & prot).
This assures you cannot change one ability without having far reaching adverse effects across the class.


Retribution also has severe issues with RNG resource generation & not having fillers for times when RNG procs don't not happen. (around 30% or more of a ret paladins dps is from completely random procs & they also play a large role in self survivability.


Ret also has one problem no other class in game has, that is that its extremely reliant on teammates to provide snares/roots/CC because without those teammates it has no way to assure time on target. Any team with decent skill can completely negate all of the specs cool downs & tools for closing distances, no other melee has that problem because they can instantly close gaps then snare/root/stun/daze their opponent.
There is also the issue of offensive & defensive dispels concerning ret pvp. That is that many of the specs abilities both offensive & defensive can be completely negated by any healer or any mage, shaman, priest, hunter, felhunter, or prot warrior.
(the dispel issue could be solved by implementing a backlash system which deals damage to you for dispelling a ret paladins buffs/debuffs, you would still be able to counter them via dispels when you needed to but it would become a real tactical choice)


In the end what the class really needs is a larger more complete melee toolkit (with better tools in case of ret) to get rid of these issues.
This can be done 2 ways, 1: A stance/presence/form system or 2: more bonuses & restrictions (for abilities) added to each talent tree.
Either way results in a better toolkit by providing bonuses to already existing abilities or completely new ones that are needed for the role in question while restricting access to or reducing the effects of abilities which a specific role does not need.

[vilhelm1992]

then you sir have not played ret in high end pvp, random bgs or 1500 rbgs means nothing, when i cant brake 1700 with my ret paladin but i can blow 2200 with an arms warrior their is a basic problem with rets, that gap closer you are talking about isnt the same as charge / intercept / death grip / feral charge... do you know what the diff is? you can be slowed while its active, freedom will get purged by any class you need it against ( mage = spell steal. warlock = pet steal. hunter = trank shot ) so i would like to see you keep it up when you fight anyone who knows how to play a kiter. the 45% speed buff means nothing when the second you use it you are slowed for 50-60%, so in the end you still move 5-15% slower.

we have no silence so we are playing 2 different classes and i have no idea what you are talking about... our cc is 6 seconds on a 1 min cd and can be dispelled by all healers. our stunn lasts 6 seconds 1 min cd and again can be dispelled by all healers ( the only class in the game with a dispellable stun )

and anyone who stacks haste in pvp is a joke, and needs to learn the pvp stat priorities.

and after looking at your armory, you truely have no place to talk. 0 arena rating with 0 games played and 0 rbg rating with 0 games played. if you are going to talk about pvp class balance please have some skill in pvp.

im not doubting your skill or knowledge in ret but, you missed out the part where you can spec so cleanse removes slows (cant remember if it was also roots so im not going to say)

[Kezotar]

The Ret dps problem can be easily fixed with just this implementation : "Your Judgement and Holy Wrath spells now generates a charge of Holy Power".

Yeah because that would've been so balanced right? 3 seconds and your burst with all procs and things is up..