Should holy have a talent to make PoH smart?

[Ynna]

if they would make it a smart heal, it's use wouldn't change much in those "oh shit need epic groupheal"-moments, you would be spamhealing PoH, CoH (maybe Sanctuary?) regardless of PoH being intelligent or not.
It would change its frequency in usage in other moments. where only a few people get some damage for example. or when the grp is nearly full, and some last bruises spread throughout the group have to be healed up.

I dought that making PoH intelligent would yield the desired results. It would be a buff, but would make it to powerful (like CoH/Chainheal used to be)
PoH is an a good place, I don't think they should change too much there...
maybe buff throughput of CoH and Sanc, because thats more easily controllable.

PoH being the only grp-based does disturb me a lot, but I just don't see how they could solve the issue without major changes in Priest Healing...
And Blizz does obviously also not see a simple way to fix it, otherwise they would have done it in cata...

I don't do 25 man, so there could be a massive difference, but you know those times when you need to cast a Heal on a player because he's damaged, but the rest of his group isn't? And you need to prioritize the PoH on the other group and then go heal him. Or wait to see if he can make it long enough until the rest of the group takes damage? Well, by making PoH smart you've eliminated that entire thought-process .

TBH Priest healing is perfect ATM. Holy and Disco =]

Yeah, Holy Priests are perfect, too bad the raid design isn't.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

Well, by making PoH smart you've eliminated that entire thought-process .

Yeah, PoH would have a even wider application range, replacing heal nearly totally.
but it wouldn't make holy much more usefull healer, you wouldnt do much more spike-HPS.
it would be a buff, defenetly.
but do we really want to spamm smartheals all the time? sounds boring ^^

[Lucapa]

If you make PoH smart the devs would do the same to it as they did to CoH, which was giving it a cooldown.
No thanks.

[Kelesti]

Yeah, Holy Priests are perfect, too bad the raid design isn't.

I needed a Priest relevant sig again. Thanks for that, Ynna.

[Pottsy710]

If you make PoH smart the devs would do the same to it as they did to CoH, which was giving it a cooldown.
No thanks.

i don't necessarily agree with that, one of the reasons CoH was OP in it's original iteration was due to the instant cast nature of the spell... again, it's obvious that the answer to my question is a resounding no, lol... but I'm just trying to figure out how to help holy compete in a world where raid cds are God without homogenizing divine hymn into just another tranquility...

[Arlee]

Eh, even if CoH had a cast time it still would have been spam'ed.

[Pottsy710]

Eh, even if CoH had a cast time it still would have been spam'ed.

true, but we spam PoH now as well during pretty much ANY aoe damage... considering the mana cost of PoH is very forgiving, it's worth casting even if only 3 of the five people in the group need healed... i just think the PoH mechanics are a bit of a dinosaur when you look at every other aoe heal in the game...

[Ynna]

true, but we spam PoH now as well during pretty much ANY aoe damage... considering the mana cost of PoH is very forgiving, it's worth casting even if only 3 of the five people in the group need healed... i just think the PoH mechanics are a bit of a dinosaur when you look at every other aoe heal in the game...

I don't think there's any way to update PoH to not being a clone of another spell or lead to us being overpowered or leading to dull gameplay. The only thing I can think of is letting the heal go in a radius from the target for up to five (closest) players and that's pretty annoying to work with it.

[Lucapa]

Tranquility is a close of Divine Hymn, not vice versa.
Until they gave Tranquility the DH mechanic and made it heal 3 times as much with a lower cooldown it was a channeled group only spell.
Nobody protested much when druids benefitted from the distribution of the DH mechanic. It would be pretty hypocritical to not buff DH just because druids got it the same mechanic.

[[-Spiritus-]]

but I'm just trying to figure out how to help holy compete in a world where raid cds are God without homogenizing divine hymn into just another tranquility...

It's really easy. Replace SoM w/ a talent that decreases the CD of DH by 2.5/5min and during the channel, increases healing received by all friendly targets within 40yds by 12.5/25% in addition to it's normal effects.

Makes it's functionality different enough from tranq, doesn't significantly bump the HPS of DH, gives holy a powerful 3minCD.

[Kilee25]

I think the current version of PoH is outdated and a relic of Vanilla raiding that should've been changed ages ago. Like Arlee, I think it should already be a smart heal, and we should not need a talent in order to make it so. And I know that Blizzard can do it because Circle of Healing started out as group only and became a smart heal over time.

Then we saw Circle go from being a spammable heal to having a cooldown. So if PoH became a smart heal, the design of the spell would be changed as well. It would have a very long cooldown, for instance. Or the amount of healing it does would be significantly reduced until it was near-useless to cast except in "extreme" situations. Basically it would start to resemble Chain Heal.

In my opinion, PoH is already fairly useless because they have progressively nerfed the healing co-efficient over the past few years. It seems like Blizzard really hates any spell that you can spam and trivialize healing with.

But I think the spell needs to be re-designed, and I definately think it's one of the major flaws in the priest class atm.

[Ynna]

I think the current version of PoH is outdated and a relic of Vanilla raiding that should've been changed ages ago. Like Arlee, I think it should already be a smart heal, and we should not need a talent in order to make it so. And I know that Blizzard can do it because Circle of Healing started out as group only and became a smart heal over time.

Then we saw Circle go from being a spammable heal to having a cooldown. So if PoH became a smart heal, the design of the spell would be changed as well. It would have a very long cooldown, for instance. Or the amount of healing it does would be significantly reduced until it was near-useless to cast except in "extreme" situations. Basically it would start to resemble Chain Heal.

In my opinion, PoH is already fairly useless because they have progressively nerfed the healing co-efficient over the past few years. It seems like Blizzard really hates any spell that you can spam and trivialize healing with.

But I think the spell needs to be re-designed, and I definately think it's one of the major flaws in the priest class atm.

But a long cooldown, or a severe reduction in Healing Done for Smart!PoH will probably make us worse at raid healing and we lose our niche.

[Kilee25]

That's the trade-off for buffing a spell though. If you just buff the spell without any drawbacks, then it's basically saying priests were flat-out broken and unable to perform their role. Is it really to that point right now? I think our frame of comparison right now is just simply that we aren't as efficient/powerful as resto druids, not that we aren't being taken to raids, full stop. Although I don't know - is that the case with heroic guilds - are holy priests being sent home?

[Arainie]

I say no straight away having played my priest as a main for 3 years now. I enjoy planning my healing and actually thinking about who to heal instead of button bashing and PoH is one of the few AoE heals left in game where positioning or target really matters. I think the whole idea of dumbing every ability down and making them easier to use is simply making gameplay more boring for the general raider even if it'll make things easier for the ones who have just stepped in to raiding.

What's made druids shine particularly well in Firelands is the buff Tranquility got. In a 25 man enviroment one tranquility heals for 500-600k if utilized properly, that's a crazy amount of healing. Holy priests have no raid cooldown that comes even close (mind that Divine Hymn is lightyears away in healing done) and that's a major drawback now that nearly every fight requires AoE cooldowns at some point. IMO it's encounter design that makes holy priests a more rare occasion and not the spec/class itself, save for the lack of a raid cooldown (which is half of every encounter design, blow cooldowns and heal like madmen).

[ramennoodleking]

no need to get snarky, just trying to generate some discussion points... and as i stated earlier in this thread, i'm mainly playing devil's advocate on how to actually fix holy... and already i've seen some post very good suggestions...

You aren't playing the devil's advocate, you are playing the devil's fool. Besides, being the devil's advocate is my job.

If you were truly playing the devil's advocate you would totally go against the grain by saying that we need nothing new or exciting to compensate for any percieved deficiency. It is, in fact, this percieved deficiency that has gotten holy so much flack. By buying into this notion, we essentially agree with the design as a whole and slip further away from compelling gameplay.

It hit me last night that this is exactly what was happening. As I was calling out barriers and tranqs and SLs I started to find myself slipping into a "WoW coma." Maybe it was the cough syrup laced with codeine that I'm taking for my sinuses, but I just started to realize how pathetically boring healing in these moments was. But wait. Not for me. In order to "keep up with the Jones'" I had to lash out and give it my all, peaking my HPS in 40ks without the mediocrity of playing my "win" button (I'm looking at you, druids).

Honestly, when it's all said and done, Holy truly does have more tools than any other class and can sustain a level of healing without cooldowns that most other healers could only wet dream about. In alot of ways, I hope we don't get a three minute cooldown. Playing as a holy priest is probably the must fun and fluid form of healing out there right now. Should consider yourself lucky.

[Arlee]

You aren't playing the devil's advocate, you are playing the devil's fool. Besides, being the devil's advocate is my job.

If you were truly playing the devil's advocate you would totally go against the grain by saying that we need nothing new or exciting to compensate for any percieved deficiency. It is, in fact, this percieved deficiency that has gotten holy so much flack. By buying into this notion, we essentially agree with the design as a whole and slip further away from compelling gameplay.

It hit me last night that this is exactly what was happening. As I was calling out barriers and tranqs and SLs I started to find myself slipping into a "WoW coma." Maybe it was the cough syrup laced with codeine that I'm taking for my sinuses, but I just started to realize how pathetically boring healing in these moments was. But wait. Not for me. In order to "keep up with the Jones'" I had to lash out and give it my all, peaking my HPS in 40ks without the mediocrity of playing my "win" button (I'm looking at you, druids).

Honestly, when it's all said and done, Holy truly does have more tools than any other class and can sustain a level of healing without cooldowns that most other healers could only wet dream about. In alot of ways, I hope we don't get a three minute cooldown. Playing as a holy priest is probably the must fun and fluid form of healing out there right now. Should consider yourself lucky.

That's what I was getting at with my story about our raid the other night where everyone except the healers felt like things went better when our disc went holy for a fight.

[Pasta Assassin]

The only spammable smart heal in the game is CH, and for a reason

PoH affecting 5 targets with how much it heals for and being a smart heal with no cd would be ridiculously overpowered

better routes to go are to:

-reduce coh cd, increase mana cost
-buff renew/renew talents
-buff/change lightwell
-the obvious DH change to add healing/reduce cd

You Do realize Lightwell is the most powerful hpm spell in the game, not our fault if baddies in your group dont use it

[ramennoodleking]

the idea was to buff or change it, it had nothing to do with HPM (Efficiency), it was to add HPS (throughput) or change how it works (Cauterizing Flame)
It wouldn't even be relevant to a balancing discussion IF raiders didn't use it, but thanks for playing

300k per lightwell isn't enough? The only beef I have about it is that the tick breaks on high enough damage. If your raiders aren't trained to use it, then that's a whole 'nother issue entirely.

Also, props to Kelesti for totally calling that someone would eventually make the "lightwell should be like Cauterizing Flame" argument. Well played, milady.

[Pottsy710]

You aren't playing the devil's advocate, you are playing the devil's fool. Besides, being the devil's advocate is my job.

If you were truly playing the devil's advocate you would totally go against the grain by saying that we need nothing new or exciting to compensate for any percieved deficiency. It is, in fact, this percieved deficiency that has gotten holy so much flack. By buying into this notion, we essentially agree with the design as a whole and slip further away from compelling gameplay.

It hit me last night that this is exactly what was happening. As I was calling out barriers and tranqs and SLs I started to find myself slipping into a "WoW coma." Maybe it was the cough syrup laced with codeine that I'm taking for my sinuses, but I just started to realize how pathetically boring healing in these moments was. But wait. Not for me. In order to "keep up with the Jones'" I had to lash out and give it my all, peaking my HPS in 40ks without the mediocrity of playing my "win" button (I'm looking at you, druids).

Honestly, when it's all said and done, Holy truly does have more tools than any other class and can sustain a level of healing without cooldowns that most other healers could only wet dream about. In alot of ways, I hope we don't get a three minute cooldown. Playing as a holy priest is probably the must fun and fluid form of healing out there right now. Should consider yourself lucky.

devil's "fool"? nice... are you capable of debating without resorting to insulting the person you're debating with?

nowhere did i say this would be the best idea, however, you seem to be content with the severe lack of holy raid slots in the current raiding scene...

[Ultima]

Also, props to Kelesti for totally calling that someone would eventually make the "lightwell should be like Cauterizing Flame" argument. Well played, milady.

It's hardly a noteworthy call when every thread that involves "Priest" and "healing" always leads to Lightwell and then swiftly to "..should be like the one in ToC5!!!!1 omg i so smart y i no dev?" or "...should be like our Tier 12! That would be awesome for Deathwing!".

devil's "fool"? nice... are you capable of debating without resorting to insulting the person you're debating with?

If that person is truly playing Devil's Advocate, then that is not their actual opinion. Therefore, calling them a fool over an advocate is not insulting their opinion. UNLESSSSSSS just said they were playing it because they are ashamed of their own opinions which clash with others.