Rdruid, Haste vs Mastery (indepth explanation wanted)! all input is appreciated

[Deleted]

(Before I say anything let me just inform you that I´ve been inactive over 1year so I am not fully uptodate)

This entire thread is based on what I THINK is correct, this is NOT based on facts. Ergo treat what I say with a pinch of salt if not a big can of salt.

Lets start!
Basics:
The Haste stat is now 11.1% more effective. For example, characters at level 100 now receive a 1% increase per 90 Haste (up from 1% per 100 Haste).
= 1% mastery = 110 points 1% haste = 90 points.

Mastery affects EVERY healing spell with % bonus healing! (inclduing wildmushroom)..?

Haste affects GCD and cast speed, but does not affect tranquility nor (wildmushroom)..?

I´ll focus more on haste as mastery feels very straight forward. The main question in the end is Haste vs Mastery what helps us the most.

Haste:
I heard that the "haste" bonus triggers on your last tick of your HoT. And based on the fact that by the end of our reju we either refresh it to add a few seconds on the timer / the specific person healed by reju is most likely @ full health by end of reju. Ergo the haste bonus loses a lot of value, leaving mastery to be looked at as our primary secondary?
Based on what I understood this applies to lifebloom, reju, germination, wild growth and regrowth HoT. Primaly focused upon Wild Growth / Reju / Germination. This sure must make haste lose a lot of value. (IF this is indeed correct).

^Based on this IMO mastery should be the best stat for us... But then I take a second look on my spellbook and see this:
Naturalist (Passive)
Passive
You gain 5% more of the Haste stat from all sources.

And I personally ask myself how does this add into the conclusion about haste/mastery? And I can't answer it. And this is the reason why I made this post.
In hope that some people who does know are willing to share their visdom.


Side question!
What stats effects wildmushroom?
Is it only mastery + vers? Or am I missing something. As far as I can recall back when I played shrooms were no longer allowed to crit.
Have they maybe embedded all side stats to increase healing of your shroom based on some %? Incudling haste even?

[Krazyito]

Haste doesn't only add to the end of the HoT. It speeds up the interval between ticks as well, which allows it to have more ticks in the same amount of time. So you're getting the extra benefit immediately between the first two ticks. The problem people have is they don't think its worth the speed vs harder hitting mastery. (Some people actually don't realize that it speeds up the interval between ticks, hence why they think all this overheal crap at the end of the hot)

Mastery is pretty self explanatory.

Wild Mushroom is affected by all your stats the same way rejuv or wild growth is.

Tranq is about the biggest reason why some people will prefer mastery because the actual healing done by tranq is not increases with haste, as oppsoed to the rest of our hots.

For me: I tend to be a heavy rejuv user. I really don't cast healing touch all that often outside of Natures Swiftness as well as regrowth being low on my healing. Hence, I will prefer haste much more than mastery.

[Deleted]

Haste doesn't only add to the end of the HoT. It speeds up the interval between ticks as well, which allows it to have more ticks in the same amount of time. So you're getting the extra benefit immediately between the first two ticks. The problem people have is they don't think its worth the speed vs harder hitting mastery. (Some people actually don't realize that it speeds up the interval between ticks, hence why they think all this overheal crap at the end of the hot)

Mastery is pretty self explanatory.

Wild Mushroom is affected by all your stats the same way rejuv or wild growth is.

Tranq is about the biggest reason why some people will prefer mastery because the actual healing done by tranq is not increases with haste, as oppsoed to the rest of our hots.

For me: I tend to be a heavy rejuv user. I really don't cast healing touch all that often outside of Natures Swiftness as well as regrowth being low on my healing. Hence, I will prefer haste much more than mastery.

So wild mushroom actually heals more if we go with haste then?
And also would it not make more sense to go haste IF you use a lot off healing touch / regrowth compared with if you aint?

Also about NS HT, I personally use regrowth with my NS for 100% critt + the fact that I KNOW living seed will be up. Might be worth considering.
Cheers for reply

[Krazyito]

I don't use the regrowth glyph. I don't value that living seed very highly because of the people I heal with as well as the way I heal.

Also, no, mastery is better for direct heals (such as healing touch and regrowth). Haste doesn't directly increase healing touchs heal per cast (HPC), only mastery does that. Haste is detrimental in fact if you use healing touch a fair amount because it will increase your mana consumption.

Haste increases any periodic healing HPC because it actually adds those ticks/partial ticks to the end.

[Thalur]

This haste vs. mastery topic has many facets and is too complicated for a full explanation including all math. However I can give you a few pointers where to start. The calculations how much a stat improves our healing are done for hots (e.g. Rejuv).

1) Haste buff and attunement
Both our attunement and the haste buff provide 5% multiplicatively. So we only need 90 / 1.05^2 = 81.63 haste rating for 1% haste, versus 88 for mastery.

2) Mastery buff and linear scaling (diminishing returns)
The mastery buff provides 10 points mastery (I call those points instead of percent because that's always confusing). This is additive to our mastery from gear, which devaluates mastery compared to haste. Example (assuming full buffs):

a) 0 haste, 0 mastery, increasing either stat by 100 (from gear).
Haste: 1.05 -> 1.06225 increases the healing by 1.167%
Mastery: 1.10 -> 1.1114 increases the healing by 1.01%

b) 1000 haste, 1000 mastery, increasing either stat by 100 (from gear).
Haste: 1.1725 -> 1.18475 increases the healing by 1.045%
Mastery: 1.2136 -> 1.225 increases the healing by 0.936%

c) 1500 haste, 500 mastery, increasing either stat by 100.
Haste: 1.23375 -> 1.246 increases the healing by 0.993%
Mastery: 1.1568 -> 1.1682 increaes the healing done by 0.982%

As you can see, haste is very far ahead of mastery in terms of healing increase for hots.

3) Reduction of cast time and GCD
In a situation where you are GCD capped (i.e. cast a healing spell on every GCD), that reduction is equivalent to an increased healing of the same magnitude. So in GCD capped fights, the above healing increase from haste also counts for cast time spells, and all hots scale to the square of your haste (in short: haste blows all other stats out of the water).
However, when you are not GCD capped, haste doesn't do much for cast time or direct healing spells (but is still better than mastery for hots).

4) Healing distribution
Since the value of the stats are different for different spells, you have to take your spell distribution into account. Typically, in an AoE heavy fight, you heavily rely hots, while in other fights, you also use some direct healing. (In an AoE heavy fight, haste is clearly ahead of mastery, for other fights it depends.)

TL;DR: There is never a simple answer and it takes a lot to really break it down with math. I can see why you would want to figure it out yourself, since there are a lot of contradictory advice in this forum. Personally, I would advocate going full haste after the last two hotfixes (11% haste buff and WG benefits from haste).

[Deleted]

Thanks for the wall of info
I´ll definently try gear towards haste then cheers.

[Deleted]

You will not be able to have the mana available to sustain a haste build. Haste only becomes better than Mastery, if you have infinite mana and are able to use spells on GCD. This includes wild growth. You are not able to do this, which weakens the rating of haste, below levels of mastery.

Technically, yes haste > mastery in the sense of raw output healing, however you have lots to consider. Mainly 'Do I have the mana to sustain the most out of a pure haste build', and the answer to that is 'no'.

[Krazyito]

Do you not realize that the majority of our casts are instant? Aside from the GCD cap, you're not really gaining any more spells cast per fight with haste.

On top of that, who uses every single global spare GCD on healing? People apparently don't realize that you have to pace yourself and not just spam whatever the hell you want. That's what makes a good healer.

i.e.: you're not really magically using more mana just because you haste more haste. That only affects you if you use more cast time spells and decide to use every single GCD with a heal which realistically won't happen.

[Thalur]

You will not be able to have the mana available to sustain a haste build.

Generalizing statements are always wrong.

However I can assure you that I can use every GCD casting a healing spell (not HT) with WG on cooldown during the whole mythic Butcher fight and not go oom. Since this is the fight in which we need the most throughput, the truth is exactly the opposite: haste is far better than mastery.
Also, why would a haste build be more mana intense than a mastery build? With mastery, I need to cast more spells for the same healing, since the individual spells (all hots) heal for less than with a haste build.

- - - Updated - - -

Do you not realize that the majority of our casts are instant? Aside from the GCD cap, you're not really gaining any more spells cast per fight with haste.

What? You really want to look up how haste works nowadays. Instant casts are affected by haste exactly the same as cast time spells. With 10% haste, you can cast 10% more Rejuvs over a given time than without haste.

On top of that, who uses every single global spare GCD on healing? People apparently don't realize that you have to pace yourself and not just spam whatever the hell you want. That's what makes a good healer.

I prefer to use that argument a bit differently: All of the bosses on mythic have phases where you need that maximum throughput for some time, and that is what your job is as a healer. So it doesn't matter if you use every single GCD during a fight for healing or not, the question is: how much can you put out during the 30 seconds that matter? You want to gear for that, and haste is currently be right way.

[Zephirdd]

You will not be able to have the mana available to sustain a haste build. Haste only becomes better than Mastery, if you have infinite mana and are able to use spells on GCD. This includes wild growth. You are not able to do this, which weakens the rating of haste, below levels of mastery.

Technically, yes haste > mastery in the sense of raw output healing, however you have lots to consider. Mainly 'Do I have the mana to sustain the most out of a pure haste build', and the answer to that is 'no'.

WHAT

Yes you can and SHOULD support a haste-heavy build with current items. Unlike most classes, Highmaul provides amazing itemization for Rdruids.

You have Champion's Medallion, a haste-spirit neck dropping from Kargath. You have Gill's Glorious Windcloak, which is a mastery-spirit cloak(mastery being our #2 stat).
The legendary quest ring is haste-spirit.
You have the Ring of infinite Accretion which is haste-spirit.

And finally, between trinkets, Emblem of Caustic Healing provides haste on-use and spirit passively; Mark of Rapid Replication is a passive haste/spirit/versatility trinket; Winged Hourglass is a cheap alternative for passive int and spirit procs; Everburning Candle is a very expensive trinket that is arguably the best mana resource until mythic-level trinkets.


There is absolutely NO REASON to not fill EVERY SINGLE POSSIBLE SLOT with spirit(or candle, which is essentially the same). Saying we can't support a haste build atm just means you can't control your mana properly or you don't have enough spirit on your build.

((also fml, I cant post links ><))

[Deleted]

Well.. I just spent 45minutes writing a post, and then MMO deleted it and I forgot to copy it away before doing so...

However, if you have more haste you use more mana, because you have a lower GCD, which means if you cast on the GCD, you get more casts over the same period of time, equating to more mana spent.

Also. Haste is only more 'Superior' in scenario's of 'High healing' Phases, if there is low damage, Mastery trumps it because you get a bigger heal out of hots.

And yes, currently, unless you are a full mythic geared Resto druid, with every offset item having spirit, and having Kor'agh and Mar'gok spirit trinkets, if you cast on the GCD with haste, you can't support a full haste build.

If you want a more 'Indepth' explination, i'm more than happy to explain it in PM rather than inflate this thread, or you can PM me for my skype and I can explain it there.

[Skyfall]

Also. Haste is only more 'Superior' in scenario's of 'High healing' Phases, if there is low damage, Mastery trumps it because you get a bigger heal out of hots.

Im not actually sure mastery gives you a better HoT in any phase after the haste buff, it just comes closer to haste if you aren't using all your GCDs for heals. But more importantly you shouldn't care about gearing for low healing phases. You gear for the phases where your healing actually matters, and that's when haste will shine. The only real argument I see for mastery is in regards to Tranq, but that one is way harder to prove either way, and is super situational, depending on the rate at which damage is going out and how injured your raid is.


Also, in theory the 5% rejuv nerf decreases the value of mastery on its own, independent of haste changes, since 1% of mastery no longer adds the healing it used to (in regards to rejuv).

[Thalur]

Also. Haste is only more 'Superior' in scenario's of 'High healing' Phases, if there is low damage, Mastery trumps it because you get a bigger heal out of hots.

This where you are completely wrong. With a haste build, our hots heal for more than with a mastery build. I actually gave a detailt account for that in my first post in this thread.

Mastery is only better if you extensively use HT/RG, or if you need a more heavy hitting tranq.

And to the mana point: Yes, a haste build allows you to spend more mana for casting more heals. However, this is not a trade-off: with haste, rejuv heals more and you can cast more Rejuvs (if you want). If you don't, the same number of rejuvs will still heal more with haste than with mastery.

[Sprucelee]

At this point it has shifted to:

Spirit>Haste>=Mastery>Blah*. Unless you have a radically different playstyle, or its a fight like Tectus, you will want to go with this prio.

But this really does not matter much (outside of enchants/gems) considering the tiny loot table we have to choose from.

*Edit: Blah = equally blah, because none of the secondary stats are really "bad" for us. ilvl (aka intellect) is always the winner, take that gear!

[emni]

Also. Haste is only more 'Superior' in scenario's of 'High healing' Phases, if there is low damage, Mastery trumps it because you get a bigger heal out of hots.

It sounds like you aren't aware that Haste adds extra ticks to HoTs making them heal for more, in addition to you being able to dish them out faster.

[yinfaitl]

A question (for Thaldor especially), just wondering if in your opinion with the changes, is it worth using an item of equal item level with haste and versatility over one with mastery and crit? Belt being the main example of this in highmaul.

[Deleted]

It sounds like you aren't aware that Haste adds extra ticks to HoTs making them heal for more, in addition to you being able to dish them out faster.

It sounds like you don't understand the Druid playstyle.

Resto Druid's are now a 'linear' class. You do not get '3 or 4' ticks, you get, 3.3 ticks, or 3.6 ticks of a rejuv.

The more haste the 'more of a' tick you can get.

Druid's are not the same as MoP which I think to many believe we are.

If we got more 'ticks' at haste points, we'd have breakpoints, but we don't because we work in a linear format.

[Sprucelee]

It sounds like you don't understand the Druid playstyle.

Resto Druid's are now a 'linear' class. You do not get '3 or 4' ticks, you get, 3.3 ticks, or 3.6 ticks of a rejuv.

The more haste the 'more of a' tick you can get.

Druid's are not the same as MoP which I think to many believe we are.

If we got more 'ticks' at haste points, we'd have breakpoints, but we don't because we work in a linear format.

That really did not address his point. 3.6 ticks is in fact more than 3.3 ticks, just because it is a partial tick doesn't mean there was not "More". They never said anything about breakpoints, or "haste points", you did, so I do not know why you are going on that tangent.

[Drefan]

Do you not realize that the majority of our casts are instant? Aside from the GCD cap, you're not really gaining any more spells cast per fight with haste.

I'm aware that we've instant casts! The more haste you've the faster you can hot your raid = you save time, gain healing.

On top of that, who uses every single global spare GCD on healing? People apparently don't realize that you have to pace yourself and not just spam whatever the hell you want. That's what makes a good healer.

Well this is very dependent on where you are in a fight. If you're in a high dmging phase you're spamming every global on healing and if there is a low dmg phase you're able to cast more wraths. win win!

And to answer the orginal question. Haste is currently better and if you can you should get it on as many pieces that you can. However this doesn't mean that you should pass on mastery pieces just because you want a "full haste build". You should get what you can grab BRF is comming!

[emni]

It sounds like you don't understand the Druid playstyle.

Resto Druid's are now a 'linear' class. You do not get '3 or 4' ticks, you get, 3.3 ticks, or 3.6 ticks of a rejuv.

The more haste the 'more of a' tick you can get.

Druid's are not the same as MoP which I think to many believe we are.

If we got more 'ticks' at haste points, we'd have breakpoints, but we don't because we work in a linear format.

It sounds like you don't understand English (or druids, but I suspect language is the issue here). Druids are not the same as in MoP at all, unless you are playing some other game about floor cleaning in which case I apologize.

We do in fact get more ticks with haste, that's what the extra 0.3 or 0.6 ticks is. I never said "Each point of haste gives an extra tick" or whatever other interpretation you dreamt up. I said just this: "Haste adds extra ticks to HoTs making them heal for more". In this case, 0.6 of a tick was added making the HoT heal for more.

So in summary: mastery makes a single HoT effect heal for more. Check

But also: haste makes a single HoT effect heal for more. Do you understand this simple fact? You do not need to chain-cast Rejuvs to gain benefit from haste. The more haste you get, the more your single Rejuv will heal for.

So now the question arises: which one of the two stats increases the healing of a single Rejuv more? (i.e. no chain casting, just one single Rejuv). The answer, according to the various HealCalcs seems to be that it is in fact haste.