MW in 6.1

[Mangcho]

So with the upcoming changes to MW in 6.1, I was wondering what impacts others think(or know) will be in store for us in regards to PVE ONLY(Heroic BRF)? Main concerns are the following:

Mana Tea now restores mana equal to 3 times the Monk's unbuffed Spirit (instead of 4% of maximum mana).
So what I had read before was that we would need 2133 unbuffed spirit to maintain equal with the current rate the mana tea was producing? (160,000 mana with Ascension changes) Means we have to have 1940 spirit equipped, we are forced to grab ascension for the 10% spirit increase(1940+194=2134), and that would keep us on par with current mana usage... However it would make us use straight spirit trinkets and no more int trinkets with secondary attributes....
How feasible is this?
What are going to be the BiS trinkets with this being the case in 6.1?
Does this also force us to utilize Mark of the Shadowmoon for periodic spirit as I cant forsee myself getting to 2133 UNBUFFED spirit....
Am I reading too far into this?

Ascension now increases Spirit by 10% instead of increasing maximum mana by 20%.
How much is this going to effect us?

Breath of the Serpent (Mistweaver) healing increased by 50%.
I cant personally see a world where i dont want Pool of the Mists for the 3 charges of renewing mist, but I could be wrong?
Does this matter at all?

Chi Burst damage has been increased by 51%.
I already like this more than chi wave personnally, my question is, does this not just become better at this point?

Chi Torpedo damage has increased by 150% and healing has increased by 42%.
I have personally never use this ability, but with a buff that large is there a world where it just is better than RJW, or is it still just a situational ability that I could spec into for certain fights such as Iron Maiden?

Zen Sphere has been improved. Its detonation damage has increased by 97%, detonation healing has increased by 70%, but periodic healing has been reduced by 39%. Also fixed a bug that caused its damage and healing to vary based on specialization.
Did anyone ever use this anyways? and if so, is this worth considering over chi burst or wave?

Once again, I am by no means a scholar of WoW, and I do not claim to be the best out there, so some of my statements/opinions/questions could be a little off, I am just looking for a little bit of information.

[Deleted]

Breath of the Serpent on stacked fights will do total healing about the same as Revival.

Mana Tea is just unbuffed spirit so not the procs.

With mana tea scaling with spirit that also make Chi Brew scale with spirit. So really no point of Ascension.

[Vasciras]

Take this with a grain of salt, since I'm nowhere near the level of theorycrafting like some other monks on this forum, but I still think most of this is correct.

Mana Tea now restores mana equal to 3 times the Monk's unbuffed Spirit (instead of 4% of maximum mana).
So what I had read before was that we would need 2133 unbuffed spirit to maintain equal with the current rate the mana tea was producing? (160,000 mana with Ascension changes) Means we have to have 1940 spirit equipped, we are forced to grab ascension for the 10% spirit increase(1940+194=2134), and that would keep us on par with current mana usage... However it would make us use straight spirit trinkets and no more int trinkets with secondary attributes....
How feasible is this?
What are going to be the BiS trinkets with this being the case in 6.1?
Does this also force us to utilize Mark of the Shadowmoon for periodic spirit as I cant forsee myself getting to 2133 UNBUFFED spirit....
Am I reading too far into this?

Yes, I think you're reading a bit too much into this. Don't worry too much about spirit come 6.1, since most of us probably won't be using RJW anymore anyway (aside from insane aoe healing phases). I think you should go with blast furnace trinket + blackhand int trinket (if you can ever steal it from your DPS, lol) Overall, we'll be fine!

Ascension now increases Spirit by 10% instead of increasing maximum mana by 20%.
How much is this going to effect us?

Probably not at all, unless you're still going to use RJW and blow through mana like a madman. Power strikes/Chi Brew(for controlled chi) will remain the best

Breath of the Serpent (Mistweaver) healing increased by 50%.
I cant personally see a world where i dont want Pool of the Mists for the 3 charges of renewing mist, but I could be wrong?
Does this matter at all?

As someone mentioned in the main thread earlier, this is a very situational talent, and will probably only be used in damage phases like Flamebender Ka'Graz's Firestorm.

Chi Burst damage has been increased by 51%.
I already like this more than chi wave personnally, my question is, does this not just become better at this point?

Yup, I'm already using Chi Burst, so this is pretty neat. No reason to use Chi Wave for anything other than fistweaving single target atm.

Chi Torpedo damage has increased by 150% and healing has increased by 42%.
I have personally never use this ability, but with a buff that large is there a world where it just is better than RJW, or is it still just a situational ability that I could spec into for certain fights such as Iron Maiden?

I have a strong feeling that Chi Torpedo is going to be staple in 6.1. The free healing and improved mobility feels too good to pass up. You might still need to switch into RJW on specific fights where it's required.

I can't comment on the Zen Sphere as I've never really used it. I think we're in a good spot come 6.1!

[Volibear]

Breath of the Serpent on stacked fights will do total healing about the same as Revival.

Mana Tea is just unbuffed spirit so not the procs.

With mana tea scaling with spirit that also make Chi Brew scale with spirit. So really no point of Ascension.

I used BotS on Brackenspore (Infesting) and tectus (upheaval) and it was doing 400-500k per cast on the ranged OR melee stack on Tectus, and 500-700k on Bracken depending on overheal. It's going to be strong for things like stacking for Flamebender Firestorm.

- - - Updated - - -

Mana Tea now restores mana equal to 3 times the Monk's unbuffed Spirit (instead of 4% of maximum mana).
So what I had read before was that we would need 2133 unbuffed spirit to maintain equal with the current rate the mana tea was producing? (160,000 mana with Ascension changes) Means we have to have 1940 spirit equipped, we are forced to grab ascension for the 10% spirit increase(1940+194=2134), and that would keep us on par with current mana usage... However it would make us use straight spirit trinkets and no more int trinkets with secondary attributes....
How feasible is this?

With the mana tea change, you're right, you would need 2133.3 spirit to get the same net gain from Mana Tea. However, you won't need to hit that to have the same total mana in a fight, because to get remotely close to that, you'll have a LOT more static mana gain from your spirit anyway.

[Mangcho]

oh wow, thx I didnt even think about the static mana increase.


Thx for the information everyone.

[Mollify]

With the mana tea change, you're right, you would need 2133.3 spirit to get the same net gain from Mana Tea. However, you won't need to hit that to have the same total mana in a fight, because to get remotely close to that, you'll have a LOT more static mana gain from your spirit anyway.

Without doing the math, I'd assume that ~1400 Spirit or so (i.e. jewellery, one trinket, weapon enchant) over the course of a fight would enable sufficient regen to make up for the nerf to Mana Tea.

Which would be much more sensible, even if I don't wholly believe in the nerf itself.

- - - Updated - - -

Without doing the math, I'd assume that ~1400 Spirit or so (i.e. jewellery, one trinket, weapon enchant) over the course of a fight would enable sufficient regen to make up for the nerf to Mana Tea.

Which would be much more sensible, even if I don't wholly believe in the nerf itself.

Some math thanks to this guy: http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/29.../#entry4388424



So 1410 unbuffed Spirit in 6.1 should approximate 6.0.3's Mana Tea due to the increased mp5 regen from having more than baseline Spirit. Spirit jewellery + cloak + either the Kor'agh, Imp, Furnace (ideal) or Blackhand trinkets would do the trick.

[Cyriaa]

I did a bit of testing ages ago on the PTR to see how the zen sphere detonate was and it was doing roughly 8k explosion on every target without suffering from any diminishing returns. i'm not sure if that's still the case but if it is I would imagine it'd be decent on some fights. The problem I have with it is that you have to wait for the detonation and can't control it so you'll have to have some foresight to get the most out of it. I would like to see it get the Hpal execution sentence treatment where they put the explosion at the start of the hot.

[Mangcho]

any idea on how everburnig candle stacks in this? because my BiS list keeps saying it is there.. but for 30,000 i dont want to buy and replace 2 days from now

[Mollify]

any idea on how everburnig candle stacks in this? because my BiS list keeps saying it is there.. but for 30,000 i dont want to buy and replace 2 days from now

It's still really, really good thanks to all of that raw +intellect. Unless you have easy access to the Heroic Blackhand trinket (+368 int, stacking +multi) then it still provides a lot of throughput.

[Solemnity]

Some math thanks to this guy: http://www.arenajunkies.com/topic/29.../#entry4388424



So 1410 unbuffed Spirit in 6.1 should approximate 6.0.3's Mana Tea due to the increased mp5 regen from having more than baseline Spirit. Spirit jewellery + cloak + either the Kor'agh, Imp, Furnace (ideal) or Blackhand trinkets would do the trick.

I never thought about the spirit regen, but I can't make sense of this image at 2 in the morning and maybe this is misleading information? Is this math saying that roughly 1410 spirit will give us similar overall mana regeneration compared to now? 1410 spirit is only 30 away for me. Surely there must be other components to this not accounted for in the math if everyone's throwing in the towel on RJW?

[Volibear]

I never thought about the spirit regen, but I can't make sense of this image at 2 in the morning and maybe this is misleading information? Is this math saying that roughly 1410 spirit will give us similar overall mana regeneration compared to now? 1410 spirit is only 30 away for me. Surely there must be other components to this not accounted for in the math if everyone's throwing in the towel on RJW?

At 1410, you'd have similar regen in 6.1 compared to having 782 spirit now.

[Mollify]

Yeah, I'd love the backing sheet for this to make a little more sense of it, but some raw numbers:

• You get 0.412 mp1 / 2.06 mp5 per point of Spirit.
• Base Spirit is 782, which is 322 mp1 / 1610 mp5
• 1410 Spirit is 580 / 2904
• 6.0.3 Mana Tea gives you 12600 mp1 + 322 mp1 from spirit (12922)
• 6.1 Mana Tea gives you 8640 mp1 + 580 mp1 from Spirit (9220)
• Over a 5 minute fight, you gain an "extra" 77400 Mana from 1410 spirit over the 782 baseline via passive regen
• 77400 / 6400 = equiv to 12.09 stacks of Mana Tea across a 5 minute fight.

I'm missing a useful conclusion there but those are the raw numbers.

[ryklin]

I really wanna go back to twins on my alt now and use breath to wreck every quake

and just to clarify because I have not been following closely

so not even mark of the shadowmoon will affect tea?

also, do I risk missing people in a tight stack like on gruul if I jump to shorten the chi torpedo, and I mean due to errors in the vertical component, not like I just didn't roll past them?

edit: another question, similar to innervate and the amp trinket, will the 10% spirit on ascension apply to tea using spirit from procs? (although it probably doesn't matter and I still won't take it) it would be about 200 extra spirit to mana tea if used during a chew toy proc per se

[Mollify]

Yeah, buffs/procs won't affect 6.1 Tea. But they do boost your spirit regen so can still be worthwhile if you need the Spirit more than Multi.

[Monkioh]

Grab a passive Spirit trinket and spec into Celerity, Chi Burst, Chi Torpedo, and Pool of Mists. You shouldn't notice much of a drop in regen if you do this.

[ScreddyLoix]

Grab a passive Spirit trinket and spec into Celerity, Chi Burst, Chi Torpedo, and Pool of Mists. You shouldn't notice much of a drop in regen if you do this.

You'll be losing either throughput or mobility compared to 6.0 though.

[Monkioh]

You'll be losing either throughput or mobility compared to 6.0 though.

Chi Burst healing is being increased by 50% and Chi Torpedo by 42%. Any throughput loss will not be significant. It's not like you can spam RJW all day long right now anyway.

[Shiik]

Chi Burst healing is being increased by 50% and Chi Torpedo by 42%. Any throughput loss will not be significant. It's not like you can spam RJW all day long right now anyway.

Chi Burst healing will also be increased? I thought only the Damage by about 50%.

[AnaMonk]

Chi Burst healing is being increased by 50% and Chi Torpedo by 42%. Any throughput loss will not be significant. It's not like you can spam RJW all day long right now anyway.

So when dpsing when the damage taken is low - to keep sustained throughput we should keep Pool of Mists for dealing with sustained Aoe damage phases.

For example im progressing on Heroic Blast furnace at the moment (We like to fail on primal elementalists) - So iv been running RJW and chi explosion going fistweaving dps like crazy. But when we reach the last phase we are a bit healing light as people are being bad so in that case my throughput of Pool of mists would be really useful.

What are you guys talenting at the moment for this fight? - I find that generally we dont need much healing till last phase (except for healing up after blasts), so I dps to help as much as i can.

I guess in 6.1 we will need to go torpedo for thoses cases and roll across the raid after blasts?

/Ana

[Deleted]

I never thought about the spirit regen, but I can't make sense of this image at 2 in the morning and maybe this is misleading information? Is this math saying that roughly 1410 spirit will give us similar overall mana regeneration compared to now? 1410 spirit is only 30 away for me. Surely there must be other components to this not accounted for in the math if everyone's throwing in the towel on RJW?

He is comparing the spirit regen for no-spirit in 6.0 and 1400 in 6.1
Then he states the tea value for those in a mpX format, assuming you get a tea stack every X seconds. He then divides the tea value by X and adds it to the mp1 value of spirit. Then he does an average of the scenarios 1tea-per-3seconds to 1tea-per-6seconds, which seems to mark the point where both break even.
Now i'm no mw theorycrafter but tea-per-3seconds; wouldn't that mean 50%haste 100%crit and spamming chi (builder/consumer) skills every gcd over the whole fight. Which wouldn't even leave you time to consume all those teas.
Looks dodgy as fuck to me. /edit: the spirit-mpX ratio looks off too, you all are right. hmm