Right. I'm talking about lining up both. Without the 4th bolt, you have a huge buffer to find a proc. Then you DS, bolt 2/3 times, probably CW as the proc ends, and then a soulfire or two under the rest of the DS. In my head it's pretty similar to the current style, you just DS+Bolt -> metaSF during GSR/BMC/Ring instead of metaSF. This spends slightly less fury under DS than the 4bolt style, but you will have better DPF, and nearly always get to bolt w/ a proc.
I don't have a lot of confidence that its better than Serv, I just think it's an unexplored area.
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I don't think you understand what I was proposing.
If the proc comes at 540, your DS is like: bolt bolt SF CW (proc ends) SF CW (ds ends)
If the proc comes at 800, your DS is like: bolt bolt bolt SF CW <something>
This is why I mentionned a small margin. 7 MC stacks and 900 fury seems fine.
I would definitely ignore the GSR proc which is a 21% damage increase in favor of DS which is 66% damage increase. If I am close to 1000 fury, I would spend 2 MC procs in meta, otherwise I would spend them in caster form during the GSR to get the most from DS.
Everything is never ideal and I did not claim this is the way things should be no matter the situation.
However I do not understand why you could not get 10 MC procs and 1000 fury every 2 minutes.
If you have to choose between procs and DS, always favor DS.
However, if you have to move during DS you may not be able to spend 12 procs during DS or even 8 so you don't need to save that much.
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If you use DS with 540 fury, then this is a big waste. I would rather spend 1000 fury with a 66% damage increase, than for example 540 fury with a 100% damage increase (DS + GSR), while I would definitely go for the 100% damage increase at 800 fury.
If you have 800 fury or more though, 4 DB + something will be better than any other combination.
Man... They really should make 3 charges HoG baseline at T18. Someone mentioned this and it will feel horrible.
Integrity is doing the right thing, even when no one is watching.
Yes and no.
It has a very high upside if RNG goes your way but it has a very low downside if it doesn't.
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Doesn't make sense to ignore the GSR proc under the situation I outlined though, for example;
1:00 - GSR procs and you have 8 MC stacks
1:00 to 1:10 - Spend 3 procs + CW in GSR (you now have 6 MC stacks)
1:10 to 1:20 - Generate Fury/MC procs (There would be a HoG stack between this time, not always but most of the time)
1:20 to 1:40 - DS phase (Even if you get 0 more MC stacks before the start of your DS phase, you can CW for a guaranteed SF at least once during the DS phase leaving you with 7 MC stacks, bare minimum)
There is plenty of time for both dumps with more than enough procs for it as well.
You certainly can and will generate 10 MC stacks and 1000 Fury every 2 minutes but in a real world situation you're going to have procs in between that 2 minutes which will take it's toll on your Fury and MC situation. You'll be able to generate far more than just 10 MC procs and 1000 Fury every 2 minutes considering back in the DB days you were able to generate 860+ Fury in a minute or so and we had worse gear.
You will have to make the decision to spend your MC stacks on your procs and "risk" not having 10 MC stacks and 1000 Fury going into a DS phase. Getting people to practice what you're preaching will turn them into bad players who sit on 1000 Fury or get to 1000 Fury exactly, waste some of the passive Fury generation you have going on, cast 2 Meta SF to drop to 840 Fury, drop out of Meta, continue building and then overcapping Fury waiting for DS phase.
It's a horrible thing to suggest people start doing because I guarantee it's going to lead to worse DPS.
Last edited by Woz; 2015-03-27 at 11:34 AM.
This soul fire vs ToC shit again...
First of all, it's not correct in any real situation to cap any of your resources EXCEPT if you are within less than 10 seconds of a heavy burn and need every inch of damage you can possibly dish out, I.E. maidens last phase, blast furnace elementalists (which happened due to incorrect play in the first place, but whatever).
2nd, there's not a single boss fight in entire brf except gruul and oregorger (which are rather irrelevant) that will allow you to get off 10 soul fires every DS and never soul fire outside of meta above 25% boss health unless you got aspect of the fox as your personal cool down. Also my personal conclusion on a fight like twins or iron maidens (and many others) is that aggressively using soul fires in caster form,sparing around 5-7 stacks for DS or really heavy proc lineups is a dps gain unless you are standing in the bombs because of the lower cast time and mobility gain of using ToC, at least if you do blade dash soaking. It is simply not affordable to soul fire in meta outside of DS or big proc lineups on a lot of fights with movement as it limits our mobility drastically and it's overall a very minimal difference (we are talking 1-2% less dps here) for a major mobility boost.
And like with every single X vs Y on the last few pages it seems as if you people don't have anything better to discuss so better provoke each other and follow up with weak responses that barely goes over infraction level or random try hard claims and "facts" that only matters in vacuum just to keep it going.
You cannot be serious... You would really use a CW outside DS just because you get a proc ?
Maybe you missed some of my earlier posts, but outside DS, CW does less damage than HoG and you lose 100 fury in the process.
I must be a horrible person, I thought this thread was about the most efficient way to play warlock.
Ok sure, so don't do that CW and you'll have 5 stacks of MC, leaving you (bare minimum) to have 6 MC stacks to use, plus any others that you will generate in the process of HoG before your DS phase or CW during it.
But I guess you must agree with the rest of that scenario then because CW is the only thing you seemingly had an issue with - meaning that's how you would handle that situation? Because that's how it should be handled.
It's not about you as a person. I said it would be a horrible thing to start telling people to do because it will lead to very poor gameplay and overcapping of two resources we frequently use, Demonic Fury and MC stacks.
I personally feel these is nothing wrong with highlighting a No1 rank and opening up discussion on how the talent may be performing after recent changes. A 25% reduction and the community/Simcraft preaching GoServ/Serv is more than enough for many people to just blindly follow the pack and never ask questions or do personal evaluation.
Unfortunately, his wording of his final sentence IMO was a trigger for people receiving this negatively. It was not "Hey, DB performed extremely well for me this week after the ilvl bump. Here is why I think this may be. Request anybody farming to give it a shot so we can have more parses to compare to". Instead it reads and feels like "Guess everybody will be copying me and going DB because I got rank one parse"..
Personally, I have been using DB on Kromog and Thogar and its doing very well for me for the needed burst on Prio targets. It most certainly still retains that neish. I'd actually been considering the past few weeks to give it a try again and see how it compared given its performance on the aforementioned fights. Seeing how this has turned into a hot debate, I'll make sure to run it for next weeks Grull kill. I'm not exactly a top parser and I got a bunch of upgrades this week, so will be hard for me to compare personal results to this weeks, which was not my best pull.
All in all, the topic of discussion has my interest... however the approach from both sides could use a bit of fine tuning
Speaking for myself only I've tested all three talents pretty extensively in-practice since the nerf. Don't really trust simcraft so generally I rely on empirical data; given we were still on Blackhand at the time and I had hundreds of pulls to see what was best I personally have a pretty good idea of what is best in *most* situations. Not going to speak for everyone here but I hardly ever rely on what the forum says and I just do my own thing based on my own testing. I think that people are equally misinterpreting DB to be this completely unused talent since 6.1 as well; there are still plenty of locks who run it at an only slight damage loss. I stand by what I said at the start, which is that if you play Serv/Serv poorly you are very likely to get better results out of DB since there is little to no optimization to be had. I think what gets my hackles up is people making sweeping generalizations and preaching stuff like facts with absolutely no data or math to back it up (see "scales better") and then they have the gall to be condescending about it. I think Octa had a very reasonable response when he just asked for any form of meaningful data but nothing was forthcoming.
You just did. Please stop quoting me if you don't want to bring this constructive argument I have been waiting for since your first post.
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If I want another stack of MC, then I will use CW during DS, when it will do 66% more damage, obviously.
What do you want me to have an issue with ?
I already disagreed with the use of MC stacks during procs over DS, and I think you realize now that you can't have both.
The only remaining thing I could disagree with would be 1:10 to 1:20 generate fury/procs but I believe you figured this part right.
You should really stop being obsessed about this overcapping thing. As stated before, I believe something like 7 MC stacks and 900 fury is enough. This is what you should aim for. If you have less MC stacks, this is not a big deal.
Last edited by mmocc1b5427302; 2015-03-27 at 06:14 PM.
You can have both, I just outlined a situation where you can (and often) do have both. If your logic so such that you won't be able to generate a single extra MC stack either through HoG, CW or an Imp in 20s that's crazy.
I gave you a scenario where you start with 8 MC stacks, use 3 on a trinket proc - left with 5, have 10 more seconds to generate at least one more stack of MC before your DS phase giving you 6 before DS, then using a CW or just randomly generating another stack giving you 6 or 7 MC stacks which you just said in this same post that you think "it's not a big deal".
Many players here seem to completely ignore what trinkets procs are actually worth, which is not much compared to our major DPS cooldown.
I would call rather it not panicking over trinkets procs.
Besides, what was discussed lately was only the case when DS phase is close.
The original discussion was about weither you should only use meta SF during trinket procs or it depends on the situation.
In my opinion Demonology is more about planning than reacting to things.
Last edited by mmocc1b5427302; 2015-03-27 at 07:15 PM.