Prot Warrior Self Healing

[Suntall]

Content that was created for 10 or 25 people that gets soloed was still created for 10 or 25 people. Id rather have the devs working on content that is for current or future content instead of tweaking old content that only a very small % will run so that class a will stop whining that class b can run it and they can't.

[Deleted]

Blood DK = Healer which distorts the meaning of "tank".

[Vathius]

What we lack in self healing we make up for in damage and mitigation. well for pvp anyway.

enraged regen + last stand is pretty much an extra life anyway

[Deleted]

What are you talking about tank healing is fine
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...hps&spec=Blood

I mean, it's 100% balanced
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...pec=Brewmaster

why on earth would you think it wasn't?
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...lood&boss=1798

Nope I see no problems here at all
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/ranking...lood&boss=1799

[Mokuna]

Damn it's almost like these classes have to heal a lot because they don't have 30% passive mitigation and blocks, crazy.

[Emancptr]

You forgot to actually look at the fights he linked. That's the funniest part of his post.

He linked Council and Velhari. Both are fights where healing isn't calculated correctly (even in WCL) due to the fact that you're under 100% HP due to debuffs. Warcraft Logs assumes that 100% of the healing and absorbs is effective healing because you never reach 100% hp. This means that there is literally 0% overhealing, which is never possible on a real boss fight.

That is why on fights like Tyrant and HFC you see Monks and DKs doing 100k+ HPS. It isn't effective HPS, it is raw HPS that is shown as effective HPS because of how the game is coded. Sure those numbers look crazy, but Monks/Dks are balanced around the fact that usually their effective HPS is going to be 50% of that. Much closer to 50-60k HPS that you see on the majority of other fights.

Then you have to be smart enough to realize what you mentioned. Dks and Monks only have absorbs/self-healing as their mitigation. This means that it has to be higher than Warriors/Druids/Paladins. Dks/Monks are balanced around the fact that their only AM is healing/absorbs and thus they need more of it. All of the other classes have some form of mitigation Dodge/Block/SoTR that is balanced with their self healing.

It's a better comparison to look at Warriors versus Druids/Paladins. In that comparison a good warrior does 20-30k HPS and Druids/Paladins usually do 30k-40k HPS. Warriors are still behind by a decent margin, but depending on your view of how valuable Block is versus Dodge/SoTR that is fine.

[mhdoe]

Because warriors are a true brute strength class not a hybrid like monks, paladins or druids.

[Arborus]

Preferably I'd like them to buff Prot CDs and self-healing to be comparable to other tanks and nerf the power of Shield Block to compensate. Tanks should have control over their survival in the same way DPS have control over their DPS.

Then, nerf the power of external CDs. It's SO incredibly boring to be a tank right now because survivability is a complete joke and any time there's actually something threatening you just get an outside shield wall and laugh it off.

In my opinion, the problem with Prot warrior is that they're too focused on proactive mitigation instead of reactive selfhealing. A druid in current content needs very little direct healing due to the strength of their active mitigation, cooldowns, self healing and all of the free healing flying around from Beacon, Extend Life, etc. I find it significantly more fun to have more control, instead of hitting my AM and hoping the healers are on the ball.

[Deleted]

Damn it's almost like these classes have to heal a lot because they don't have 30% passive mitigation and blocks, crazy.

Really? I had no idea DKs couldn't block!

It bothers me more than Prot Warriors get a bad rep because our HPS(e) is low, if only Skada showed blocked damage as healing!

[Valech]

Really? I had no idea DKs couldn't block!

It bothers me more than Prot Warriors get a bad rep because our HPS(e) is low, if only Skada showed blocked damage as healing!

Why on earth would you care about your reputation? People, who are even slightly knowledgeable about protwarriors know, that we mitigate damage diffrently. It´s like judging a disc priest on their effective healing done before absorbs were shown in the meters as heal. Bad players thought disc priest can´t heal, good players knew why they would want one in their setup.

- - - Updated - - -

Preferably I'd like them to buff Prot CDs and self-healing to be comparable to other tanks and nerf the power of Shield Block to compensate. Tanks should have control over their survival in the same way DPS have control over their DPS.

No thank you. The only reason why prot warriors are still liked during progression is, that their shieldblock is entirely trustworthy and unrelated to their current gear, whereas most absorbs scale with your itemlevel. Also, I don´t understand how Shieldblock is NOT letting you have controle over your survivability. We both agree, that both blocks and selfheal add to your survivability, right?

Then, nerf the power of external CDs. It's SO incredibly boring to be a tank right now because survivability is a complete joke and any time there's actually something threatening you just get an outside shield wall and laugh it off.

Excuse me, but that it spoken like a true lfr warrior. May I ask from which pool of experience you draw that conclusion and with what tank you made those experiences?

In my opinion, the problem with Prot warrior is that they're too focused on proactive mitigation instead of reactive selfhealing. A druid in current content needs very little direct healing due to the strength of their active mitigation, cooldowns, self healing and all of the free healing flying around from Beacon, Extend Life, etc. I find it significantly more fun to have more control, instead of hitting my AM and hoping the healers are on the ball.

You are aware, that proactive mitigation offers MORE controle and requires MORE attention by the tank then reactive selfhealing, right? Once damage is done, both instances (healers and tanks, that can potently selfheal) must take action. As a warrior and to some extent as other classes, you can take action BEFORE it is necessairy for the healer to take action.

[Arborus]

Replies in bold.

No thank you. The only reason why prot warriors are still liked during progression is, that their shieldblock is entirely trustworthy and unrelated to their current gear, whereas most absorbs scale with your itemlevel. Also, I don´t understand how Shieldblock is NOT letting you have controle over your survivability. We both agree, that both blocks and selfheal add to your survivability, right?

You press Shield Block...and then what? That's it. After you press Shield Block you better sure as hell hope your healers have your back. Oh? You got hit to 40% hp just before a large burst? Your healers have to move for some reason? Sorry, you're not a class with reactive self healing to get yourself back up to reasonable level of HP. You also only have one Shield Wall effect, so you don't have the CDs to spare.

Excuse me, but that it spoken like a true lfr warrior. May I ask from which pool of experience you draw that conclusion and with what tank you made those experiences?

4/7M HM 5/10M BRF 13/13H HFC currently. Not great, for sure. Resto Druid in HM with Monk/Warrior tanks. Blood DK in BRF w/ Warrior co-tank. Guardian Druid in HFC w/ Warrior co-tank.

You are aware, that proactive mitigation offers MORE controle and requires MORE attention by the tank then reactive selfhealing, right? Once damage is done, both instances (healers and tanks, that can potently selfheal) must take action. As a warrior and to some extent as other classes, you can take action BEFORE it is necessairy for the healer to take action.

Every tank has some form of proactive defenses. Savage Defense, Elusive Brew, SoTR, Shield Block, etc. Cooldowns like Shield Wall, Survival Instincts, Bristling Fur, Rune Tap, Icebound Fortitude, Fortifying Brew, etc. Proactive mitigation offers the least control. It's hit it and forget it. Without being able to respond to any particular situation, you have no control beyond "is my active mitigation up" and "did I use a cooldown". Whereas tanks with reactive kits can be like "is my active mitigation up", "did I use a cooldown", "did something go wrong? how can I respond?", "Use my reactive ability- Guard, Death Strike, Frenzied Regen, Cenarion Ward, Lay on Hands, Word of Glory, etc." Having the ability to respond innately gives you more control than hoping the healers will be able to get you back to stable levels of HP before the next ability or large hit comes in.

[Teddybearavenger]

A good playing warrior will be able to migitate a lot of dmg. This in essence is what a tank is designed for. Self healing isn't our niche, mobility and migitation is. If you have to rely on self healing to survive ( in a pve envoirement ofc) your healers need to wake up.

Would really like to know what's a good warrior when it's beyond easy to play prot now. It's disgustingly simple with no skill required. Sorry to burst your bubble with facts.

[Deleted]

Have to agree with Arborus. It's not such a big issue if you have a heal pala in your raid, but yesterday our pala went ret for setup reasons on Socrethar M progress. (just after we killed Gorefiend, so we weren't that ready for it)
Just looked into the logs and what do I see? In phase 1 63% of effective healing done to me is self healing, 45% of raw healing done to me is self healing! Tbh that includes WUE, but counting that out it's still more than any other healer.
So I'm sitting at 30-40% tanking the boss. Now I have 2 options: use rage on shield blocks and die or shield barrier more and not having enough rage for next shield block. And I have to save my Shield Wall for the smash which I need SW + Sac for.
Tldr it's not fun as prot warrior without a pala heal


Edit

Would really like to know what's a good warrior when it's beyond easy to play prot now. It's disgustingly simple with no skill required. Sorry to burst your bubble with facts.

May I look at some logs of yourself? :>

[Valech]

Replies in bold.

I enjoyed reading your answer. I´d still like to add a few things.

"You press Shield Block...and then what? That's it. After you press Shield Block you better sure as hell hope your healers have your back. Oh? You got hit to 40% hp just before a large burst? Your healers have to move for some reason? Sorry, you're not a class with reactive self healing to get yourself back up to reasonable level of HP. You also only have one Shield Wall effect, so you don't have the CDs to spare."

Your argument is, that in specific situations you are at your healer´s mercy. That specific situation in your example is, that due to unforseeable circumstances you dropped to 40% and in addition to that, a huge blow is to be expected in the next few moments. Your dilemma as a warrior tank in that situation is, according to your example, that you lack a potent self heal and that your bigger cooldowns are so scarce, that you cannot allow yourself to use them.
I would like to explain, why this example is at least problematic. First of all, if you drop to 40% ALTHOUGH your shieldblock was in use (and excess rage was bled off into barriers and so forth), most likely something has gone wrong already anyway. Either you messed up yourself, by eating too much damage from avoidable sources or healers were unable to provide you with the standard amount of necessairy healing, every tank would require to survive autohits. Secondly, "because they had to move" cannot be a valid excuse for them not providing sufficient healing, since reasons to move are widely anticipateable and easily answered with hots, or in drastic situations, cooldowns like spiritwalkers grace or even a bubble. Thirdly, your example describes, that a huge blow is to be expected in the next few moments. If not for that, for what reason else would you want to save your shieldwall? Thus the argument, that it is to precious to be used cannot be applied here.

"4/7M HM 5/10M BRF 13/13H HFC currently. Not great, for sure. Resto Druid in HM with Monk/Warrior tanks. Blood DK in BRF w/ Warrior co-tank. Guardian Druid in HFC w/ Warrior co-tank."

Thank you for the backround information. I´d like to ask you, if you have progressed the butcher in HM mythic when it was content or if you have killed him any time after. I just cannot see, how one can claim, that external cooldowns make tanking boring while having progressed butcher on mythic without outgearing it vastly.
For the record and if it is important for you, I am at 7/7m, 10/10m and currently 8/13m.

"Every tank has some form of proactive defenses. Savage Defense, Elusive Brew, SoTR, Shield Block, etc. Cooldowns like Shield Wall, Survival Instincts, Bristling Fur, Rune Tap, Icebound Fortitude, Fortifying Brew, etc. Proactive mitigation offers the least control. It's hit it and forget it. Without being able to respond to any particular situation, you have no control beyond "is my active mitigation up" and "did I use a cooldown". Whereas tanks with reactive kits can be like "is my active mitigation up", "did I use a cooldown", "did something go wrong? how can I respond?", "Use my reactive ability- Guard, Death Strike, Frenzied Regen, Cenarion Ward, Lay on Hands, Word of Glory, etc." Having the ability to respond innately gives you more control than hoping the healers will be able to get you back to stable levels of HP before the next ability or large hit comes in."

Your argument here, if I narrowed it down correctly, is, that reactive mitigation (in particular self heals) add another emergency layer to situations, in which you receive damage. In other words, additional to being able to controle proactive measures and cooldowns, you can also do something if shit hit the fan. i would like to explain, why your initial assumptions are problematic. Your argument is based on "hit it and forget it". I like Killrog most for an example, why that is not true. While there are bosses, which require nigh no micro management when it comes to shieldblock, most bosses offer vast possibilities to improve your shieldblock uptime. A freshly cast shieldblock is useless, if most of its duration goes into heartseeker or death throes. You need to plan for and anticipate those moments, during which the boss will melee attack you. and ON TOP of that, you need to save a charge of shieldblock for his shredd armor. Speaking of "hit it and forget it" cannot be the case here, unless you would not care about how effective the shieldblock is, that you just cast. Secondly, ER is missing in your list of reactive mitigation. While surely not as potent as a lay on hands, its short cooldown durationand its synergy with last stand (which synergizes with our current tier set bonus) still make it attractiv in situations, in which you are desperate for more health. Thirdly, non of your responses has touched Shieldbarrier so far. While Savage defense and frenzied regeneration are mentuioned both by you, for warriors it seems like not only they have no noteworthy selfheal, but also they are forced to rely on shieldblocks alone. Please consider, that absorb is basically the same as a heal and can additionally be used effectively while being at full health. While true, that it lacks potency, it still supports our kit well.

[Suntall]

Would really like to know what's a good warrior when it's beyond easy to play prot now. It's disgustingly simple with no skill required. Sorry to burst your bubble with facts.

Very convincing facts. Oh wait, you didn't give any . If it was so simple to play wouldn't every tank just roll a warrior and one shot mystic Archimonde carrying the raid?

To answer your question: what defines a good tank? I leave that open for debate but my two cents are that would be a tank who thinks about more that just threat level. It's positioning, migitating as much dmg as you can to ease work on the healers, doesn't fuck up mechanics, gives feedback to others in the raid when needed i.e. Does everything he or she can to make sure that the raid can trust the tank to do its job flawlessly.

[Deleted]

what defines a good tank? I leave that open for debate but my two cents are that would be a tank who thinks about more that just threat level. It's positioning, migitating as much dmg as you can to ease work on the healers, doesn't fuck up mechanics, gives feedback to others in the raid when needed i.e. Does everything he or she can to make sure that the raid can trust the tank to do its job flawlessly.

I'd add to that: not only giving feedback, but also open to feedback from others (good quality for raiders in generell). Maximizing damage output as far as survivabiliy and not hindering other raid members allows.

[Toppy]

Warrior, as with all tanks, is very easy to learn.

Though to master and be skilled at?

Monk>Warrior>Paladin>Drood>>>>>>>>>DK

Warrior requires more situational awareness than others. Monk needs lots of situational awareness as well as damn good mechanical skill (warrior requires the latter to, just not near as much).

Paladin requires a firm grasp of mechanical awareness, but very little situational. Drood requires you to not be easily bored. DK is just easy mode all around.

[barleybear]

Very convincing facts. Oh wait, you didn't give any . If it was so simple to play wouldn't every tank just roll a warrior and one shot mystic Archimonde carrying the raid?

To answer your question: what defines a good tank? I leave that open for debate but my two cents are that would be a tank who thinks about more that just threat level. It's positioning, migitating as much dmg as you can to ease work on the healers, doesn't fuck up mechanics, gives feedback to others in the raid when needed i.e. Does everything he or she can to make sure that the raid can trust the tank to do its job flawlessly.

Being a good tank is definitely not the same as being able to simply play a tank. You can very easily switch your spec to Prot, pick up a 1-hander and a shield and go to town, but if you have no idea what the fuck you're doing, you're going to be a bad tank, and that's on you - not the spec. People get confused that over powered tank classes means that anyone can play them and be good, and that's simply not the case. Sure, Monk tanks were (and still are one of) the best tanks in this expansion because they were very over powered with Stagger and Guard, but you could still be an awful Monk tank (or tank in general) if you didn't know how to perform your role.

A tank is not in the class, it's in the player. It's knowing when to use your active mitigation, it's knowing when it's time to pop a big CD for those moments when you need it, and it's knowing how to make the fight easier for everyone else so that everyone else can perform to the best of their ability. Warriors are a great example of this model BECAUSE they rely on anticipating what is to come. You don't pop Shield Block blindly in a moment when you either aren't tanking something or whatever you're tanking isn't attacking you directly with melee hits. You don't use Shield Wall in moments when you aren't taking a significant amount of damage. It's all about knowing the fights and knowing what's coming so you can prepare for it. Sure, Warriors don't have a significant 'OH SHIT' button that they can press that will give them potent self-healing and huge absorbs, but like most have said on this thread, Warriors are all about mitigating the damage instead of soaking great amounts of it or healing themselves up completely after a mess up.