LFR question about dps and recount

[Deleted]

I've noticed the following recurring scenario in LFR:

1) In a "relatively difficult" fight such as Mannoroth or Archimonde, or SOO Garrosh, LFR raids often wipe or wiped multiple times. This was a bit surprising to me as you'd think from the comments on these forums that you could simply sleep through entire LFR raid wings-but for whatever reason, it is definitely happening.

2) Inevitably someone would wipe out a recount meter and start blaming the dps.

Now, looking at the tactics on, say, Archimonde, the boss himself seems to be the lowest priority of anything in the fight. This often seems to be the case. So, pulling out recount data on boss dps is counter-productive. Those people doing poor dps will focus exclusively on the boss to avoid being shamed, whereas it seems the actual problem lies with non-existent understanding of tactics amongst PUG-ers. In the specific case of Archimonde a lack of focus on adds is fatal.

I can understand that dps would be a consideration at higher levels of raiding where a reasonable assumption could be made that people generally know what they are doing with tactics. LFR however, seems to be set with a very low bar for dps so that it should be virtually impossible to wipe provided correct tactics are used.

But, I have never done any serious raiding and mostly try and avoid LFR also (I'm just doing it for the legendary). So I could be completely wrong and would appreciate a correction. What would the opinion of more experienced raiders be? Does this scenario happen with "proper" raiding?

[ThePants999]

Linking raw DPS from a meter is, as you highlight, a pretty blunt instrument when there are priority targets. Highlighting those who are hitting the wrong targets is indeed better than just linking the meter.

However, FWIW, those who focus exclusively on the boss will tend to end up at the bottom of the meters anyway, as hitting multiple targets tends to inflate your DPS :-)

[shi]

Tbh if every dps in left played their class competently it wouldn't even matter if dps had tunnel vision because multi dotting and cleave would kill off all the adds anyway.

[Deja Thoris]

Hellfire citidel short guide.

Always hit adds then boss.

[cFortyfive]

What would the opinion of more experienced raiders be? Does this scenario happen with "proper" raiding?

Being called out for doing shitty overall damage while dealing acceptable priority target damage ? Certainly.

[Fleckens]

On most fights hitting adds will increase your overall damage though, and while i admitedly haven't done very much of lfr, i have never seen anyone link boss damage rather than just damage overall. But yeah if you people to focus adds, make sure you link add damage rather than overall damage.

[Deleted]

Tbh if every dps in left played their class competently it wouldn't even matter if dps had tunnel vision because multi dotting and cleave would kill off all the adds anyway.

I'm not sure I understand this.

The definition of cleave abilities seems to be "abilities which do damage to secondary targets without compromising dps on the primary target".
Those have quite limited range.
With Archimonde last night the adds were running around a relatively large area. Maybe this is a product of sub-optimal tanking, but most of the adds weren't close enough to get hit by these abilities. Could you clarify?

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On most fights hitting adds will increase your overall damage though, and while i admitedly haven't done very much of lfr, i have never seen anyone link boss damage rather than just damage overall. But yeah if you people to focus adds, make sure you link add damage rather than overall damage.

This does happen in LFR, it happened last night. The raid leader immediately threw a recount of overall damage back at the guy who posted the boss-only data. Normally no one questions it.

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Being called out for doing shitty overall damage while dealing acceptable priority target damage ? Certainly.

This may just be an LFR thing, but there often seem to be situations where your overall damage would be compromised.

For example with Archimonde again, there were two guys running around dealing with all the adds everyone else was ignoring. Given there were several boosted hundreds in the raid that was a lot of adds. All that movement must have been costly to their dps, notwithstanding the other gains from multi-targetting. But, they were probably the most skilled players in the raid.

(Thanks for your feedback everyone).

[Deleted]

I don't mind DPS counting, but when I do, it's because they use Skada. Skada is a disease, it's a plague in this community when it became popular. This is because it counts all the time someone was dead and subtracts it, lowering the dps even of those that died by mistakes of others and on end-game bosses like Archimonde, you can easily die with others' mistakes.

If you are going to be quick-and-dirty at least do it right.

Use an addon that only counts their alive-time DPS.

[Runewrath]

Use an addon that only counts their alive-time DPS.

It shows their %active time which will show you if they died. Not to mention it's a meter designed to show your combat effectiveness. And your effectiveness does tend to go down when you die.

[freddy090909]

Low damage numbers can be indicative of a problem. If you're doing 10k dps, it doesn't matter whether you're focussing adds or the boss, because you're not really doing anything either way. Not to mention, some people might just be AFK and they DO need to be called out.

That said, I do agree that people tunneling damage into the boss simply to have high overall DPS can be an extreme problem. It happens even at the mythic level, and it is on the officers to make sure their raiders know the right targets they should be hitting and to call out people who are clearly slacking. If you think a particular add is the problem (even on LFR) and someone is spamming damage meters, just spam the damage done to that particular add in response.

A large number of the fights in HFC are add-heavy with a kill priority list. Even if a player doesn't know the mechanics of a fight, if they know to kill the adds, they'll be fine in almost every situation. Tyrant is an exception where the boss keeps priority over the first two adds, which can be cleaved down.

[Deleted]

It shows their %active time which will show you if they died. Not to mention it's a meter designed to show your combat effectiveness. And your effectiveness does tend to go down when you die.

It's an abhorrent method when it's used in a quick and dirty way, which is how it's used by most puggers. They don't look at who is to blame for your death. And in the most important bosses in every tier your death is often OTHERS' fault.

If you are going quick and dirty at least go with the proper addon. One that counts only their active DPS. The best currently is Details (if set up properly, not on default) and Recount.

It is not ideal but those people do not even check how you died. So it's entirely irrelevant to talk about "effectivenes" here. Their effectiveness goes down if others killed them.

[Tharkkun]

I don't mind DPS counting, but when I do, it's because they use Skada. Skada is a disease, it's a plague in this community when it became popular. This is because it counts all the time someone was dead and subtracts it, lowering the dps even of those that died by mistakes of others and on end-game bosses like Archimonde, you can easily die with others' mistakes.

If you are going to be quick-and-dirty at least do it right.

Use an addon that only counts their alive-time DPS.

That's incorrect. I could pop all my cooldowns, my ring, pre-pot, stampede and then die 45 seconds into the fight because I stood in something bad. My DPS would be over 100k but my overall damage might be 4 million compared to 15 million by others. That's why DPS is calculated over the entire fight.

EDIT: The tool is only as good as the person using it. I found details cumbersome to use and I can get the same data faster with Skada.

[Deleted]

That's incorrect. I could pop all my cooldowns, my ring, pre-pot, stampede and then die 45 seconds into the fight because I stood in something bad. My DPS would be over 100k but my overall damage might be 4 million compared to 15 million by others. That's why DPS is calculated over the entire fight.

But the crucial flaw in your argument is that those people do not check if you stood in the fire. And in the most important bosses in this game you can often die from others' fault. e.g. if you tunnel vision Archimonde on phase 1 you will likely be safer than those actually knowing the fight.


Also on nethers.


And on spreading. Tons of examples.

[Resurgo]

It's just a tool. How you use the tool determines its effectiveness. I don't use Skada, but I've seen people link meters that show damage done on adds instead of the boss, so you can directly point out who the the ones tunneling are.

[Tharkkun]

But the crucial flaw in your argument is that those people do not check if you stood in the fire. And in the most important bosses in this game you can often die from others' fault. e.g. if you tunnel vision Archimonde on phase 1 you will likely be safer than those actually knowing the fight.


Also on nethers.


And on spreading. Tons of examples.

Part of being a raider is keeping yourself alive. The range finder works wonders and it's up to everyone to use it. If someone stands on your face then you move. It's a little more chaotic in LFR but anything beyond that people should be aware. At some point you need to keep yourself alive and not blame others.

We had that issue with shadowfel burst. People played the blame game yet both or all 3 players who were hit had no excuse why their range finder was red.

[cFortyfive]

This may just be an LFR thing, but there often seem to be situations where your overall damage would be compromised.

Well of course and it's perfectly fine to "lose" damage to play mechanics appropriately and handle priority targets. Still if at the end of a wipe evening you are dead last on every pull by a margin it's quite likely not acceptable.

[Deleted]

Part of being a raider is keeping yourself alive.

In end-game raiding, perhaps even including the final bosses of LFR in some cases, you can't control the game by yourself. For instance, you are pulled into the the nether of Archimonde. You can't really control if others are going to kill you in there (provided you can't solo it, it's only a hypothetical here, I don't know how LFR works in that particular example).

Having an LFR hero blaming you "low DPS" after a death of that sort is just nonsense.

Alive-time DPS only is also a crude approximation but a better one if you go crude.

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Or a common example easily applicable in LFR is raid-wide unavoidable damage killing almost everyone because it's impossible to stay alive if nobody healed them, but, a tank and a healer keep going, and going, and going for about 2 minutes before they wipe. The Skada way of counting will completely skew the results. Those players had with a mathematical certainty no way of staying alive in that scenario but they may be blamed.

Couple it with some classes having more self heals etc. than others and it gets really sketchy.

In general, if you're going to go quick and dirty at least just assess the time they were alive.

[ComputerNerd]

I don't mind DPS counting, but when I do, it's because they use Skada. Skada is a disease, it's a plague in this community when it became popular. This is because it counts all the time someone was dead and subtracts it, lowering the dps even of those that died by mistakes of others and on end-game bosses like Archimonde, you can easily die with others' mistakes.

If you are going to be quick-and-dirty at least do it right.

Use an addon that only counts their alive-time DPS.

Skada is just a tool, that the community makes into a problem.
Recount is equally such a problem when people like it as a bragging tool, or just singling out people without any proper context.
The real "disease" is the people.