Warlocks and Emerald Nightmare

[Jondar]

You haven't seen me post anything calling someone's group bad in relation to this data. I will say that I don't care about Any single parse as compelling evidence of anything.


That's not at all the same as me telling you your group is bad. Frankly, I neither know nor care whether that's the case.

..



- I didn't say warlocks aren't viable. Stop strawmanning.



- I haven't been crying 24/7, nor have I posted mis-spellings in ALL CAPS. Stop the false attribution


- Calling me a baby isn't really constructive. Pretty sure most objective observers would say I've posted data and said what I think it means. I have a real life baby. she doesn't do that.

..


- I didn't say warlocks aren't viable. Stop strawmanning.



- I haven't been crying 24/7, nor have I posted mis-spellings in ALL CAPS. Stop the false attribution

..

- And labeling the presentation of data as crying seems to be a pattern for you. It seems like you have a comprehension problem as it simply isn't crying to do so. Maybe you intend to respond to other posters. But you quoted me, so I'm just calling it as you wrote it.

..

- Calling me a baby isn't really constructive. Pretty sure most objective observers would say I've posted data and said what I think it means. I have a real life baby. she doesn't do that.

If you've been keeping up with the thread (more specifically, responses from your stance on the subject), you'll see that that is a very common response. So when I say generalities like that, I mean it in regard to the people who do use those as responses. You aren't, and that's great. But it seems trendy for people to jump into conversations and butt in with such responses - so consider those comments a countermeasure, because I'm sure people are just itching to come in and do so.

- I gave context around the Il'gynoth logs I posted, you didn't like the conclusion. So it's actually your statement that's inaccurate.

Look, the context of your Il'gynoth logs is an inaccurate representation of what matters in that fight. It's just a dishonest way of trying to prove a point that doesn't apply to that fight. Warlocks are good at it. No, they aren't that good in the Heart phase. But the difficult portion of the fight is literally all priority target cleaving. There's no point to posting those specific logs other than to get uneducated people all riled up with their pitchforks.

- Getting better is something we all can do. That goes literally for every player in the world. It's also not mutually exclusive with pointing out that our damage is low, and not solely because hunters and mages can meter whore on xavius.

Naturally. But some of the loudest people in this thread don't even appear to be playing the game. A lot of them haven't even raided yet. And some of them have literally been posting all this doom and gloom nonsense for years. Telling them to get better - hell, even asking to post logs to see where they can improve - is certainly more constructive then rallying with them even though they really don't know what they're looking at when they look at logs but see red when they don't see any Warlocks in the top whatever rankings.

It's the first week of Heroic and people are acting like it's proof that the world is ending that we aren't topping charts. It's as though they're looking for an excuse to not clear content or be good enough to join a decent progression group rather than look for ways to improve or post constructive ideas on how the class could be better.

Anyway, I've spent too much time in these conversations. Good luck to everyone.

[Gaidax]

Naturally. But some of the loudest people in this thread don't even appear to be playing the game. A lot of them haven't even raided yet. And some of them have literally been posting all this doom and gloom nonsense for years. Telling them to get better - hell, even asking to post logs to see where they can improve - is certainly more constructive then rallying with them even though they really don't know what they're looking at when they look at logs but see red when they don't see any Warlocks in the top whatever rankings.

Absolutely correct and this is something that ticks me off as well, this constant poison some of the more "prominent" doom and gloom camp members of this subforum spread for years now regardless of state of affairs. I don't even get them... Is that some sort of life's goal or something?

These guys like Jessika, Degn... they have been complaining for years now. It's almost absurd, really, if they would put the time and effort they put in forums complaining about everything into playing damn thing or better yet contributing to humanity then at worst we would have 2 amazing warlock players and at best we would frikkin' cure cancer by now.

Right now we have neither. I'm not even sure after all these years what they actually want... I think they just enjoy the process.

[Deleted]

Absolutely correct and this is something that ticks me off as well, this constant poison some of the more "prominent" doom and gloom camp members of this subforum spread for years now regardless of state of affairs. I don't even get them... Is that some sort of life's goal or something?

These guys like Jessika, Degn... they have been complaining for years now. It's almost absurd, really, if they would put the time and effort they put in forums complaining about everything into playing damn thing or better yet contributing to humanity then at worst we would have 2 amazing warlock players and at best we would frikkin' cure cancer by now.

Right now we have neither. I'm not even sure after all these years what they actually want... I think they just enjoy the process.

Well, I would argue that WoD warlock was pretty much MoP warlock, but worse. That was my beef back when WoD launched. This time, my beef is that Blizzard completely ignored a huge amount of beta feedback, just to have it blow up in their face.

Every single thing I suggested during the beta is slowly becoming reality:

Murloc PvP area nerf / fix. Brulfist + Glider + Emerald Winds. Engineering. Demonology demon duration.

Coming up next: Life restoration for demonology and destruction that isn't tied to drain life. Pet ability on GrimSac or baseline interrupt. Affliction gold trait reworks. Havoc (Warlock spell) nerf, possibly off GCD again. (And now you may be thinking, sure, that's obvious, and I agree)

And again, I'm not complaining about our numbers from a progression viewpoint, but from a balance viewpoint. I want the game to be balanced, and it is frankly kind of a joke that they missed the mark as much as they did. Especially since in many cases it shouldn't surprise anyone that some specs would be way too strong (Usually due to passive strong AoE / cleave coupled with already strong single target DPS).

I'm not exactly sure what it is you want me to say at this point. I've said many times by now that the changes are coming and that we will have to see what they will do, and that noone can deny that warlocks are behind at the moment (Destruction not as much as the others).

I mean, didn't we already agree that warlocks do have issues? And please point out where I am hyperboling and calling the class dead, because I don't recall saying anything like that recently. Edit: What I did say was that warlocks CURRENTLY can't compete with certain specs if skill and gear is equal, and you really can't argue that they can. If so, I would really like to see some examples, examples that are not long distance cleave destruction.

Edit2: And just to get this in before any logs are posted again: If you do X amount of DPS and you are ranked around first place for your spec, while another person does X + 10k DPS and he is ranked top 20%... You are more skilled than that person while doing less damage.

[Baconeggcheese]

This time, my beef is that Blizzard completely ignored a huge amount of beta feedback, just to have it blow up in their face.

Blizzard easily listened to more feedback than I've ever seen them listen to ever this xpac.

Your lack of paying attention to it when they were actually making changes =/= them ignoring us.

[Deleted]

Blizzard easily listened to more feedback than I've ever seen them listen to ever this xpac.

Your lack of paying attention to it when they were actually making changes =/= them ignoring us.

During beta, lord of flames was changed to not be tied to rain of fire but infernal instead (The old one was nonsensical, and I wouldn't argue that this was listening to feedback). Soul Harvest was changed from generating 5 shards to 20% damage buff, and is pretty much not used outside of PvP for destruction. As far as I recall, the affliction artifact change was late in alpha. I honestly don't remember anything else really getting looked at, despite lots of feedback pointing it out.

Some of the feedback: Chaos bolt feels underwhelming to use. Shadow Burn + Backdraft sucks to have as talents, should be baseline. Talents are overly specialized. Destruction and Demo often running around without an interrupt, aff as well if specced into GrimSac. Doomguard didn't fit well as a DPS cooldown for destro and aff. Edit: Soul Effigy not feeling good. Life tapping not feeling good. Mana tap was definitely not popular. Circle becoming a talent was not popular.

Do you remember what they changed other than the ones I mentioned? I honestly don't remember anything else.

Edit: I know that some of those are personal opiniony and just because a lot of players dislike the changes doesn't necessarily mean they should be changed back / again, but I would still argue that we wouldn't have the current warlock situation if they had acted on some more of the feedback they got.

Edit2: Oh yeah, they also swapped Fire and Brimstone and Cataclysm. Not exactly anything crazy there. Frankly, I think I'd rather have Fire and Brimstone instead of Cataclysm. (Running SB/Cata/DS/Eradication/BR/GrimSac/WreakHavoc for dungeons)

Edit3: Demonology playing like a sack of bricks was also mentioned repeatedly, along with the issue of having most of your damage tied to uncontrollable guardian pets, with a pretty crappy AI.

Edit4: Oh, and I definitely also pointed out the "brilliance" of putting Hand of Doom on the same tier as Soul Harvest. Great synergy, mutually exclusive. So the only way to get maximum benefit of Soul Harvest for Demonology is to manually cast Doom on 10 individual targets. By the time you are done, you are really going to need all the damage increases you can get just to catch up again.

[evertonbelmontt]

But I expect buffs ranging from 10 to 15% overall increase for afflic, 10% for destro and I don't know about demon.

I think anyone expecting 10/15% buffs are in for a huge disappointment come Wednesday.

Lulz

I'm so pro :P

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...-september-23/

[corebit]

Lulz

I'm so pro :P

http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/7...-september-23/

I have to give props to Blizzard. They are being quicker to balance things this time than I expected. I thought warlocks would languish for an entire tier at least.

[Baconeggcheese]

Either way, if they weren't a problem; why did Warlocks lobby so hard to get Demon Soul, Soul Swap, Fel Flame and Demonic Circle in Cataclysm?

You're aksing why people rallied for new things and extra mechanics to deal with warlocks shortcomings. Of course people are going to ask for that, it doesn't mean the class NEEDS it or that its good game design to add it in when they're trying to create these niches. Hence why we went down the road of overly homogenizing everything for a while.

Again there's nothing inherently wrong with the things you mention mechanically, you're literally arguing against basic game design 101 tropes. You can design and balance a class for ramp and sustain etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with those mechanics, they just need to be tuned properly. Hence it not being a mechanical issue, its a tuning issue.

I never really argued otherwise; but the extremity with which our talents delta is unique.

Again this is where I'd disagree and say its either naivety or ignorance pushing this. Other classes absolutely have the same issues, some specs have certain talents that are smaller trade-offs, for instance implosion is barely a ST loss for a massive aoe gain, but every spec has trade-offs.

There isn't always things to die, and things don't always die where you want them to.

And?

If I want aff to do X dmg with nothing dying I can very easily tune for that, and then I can tune these traits to be Y% increases when things are dying. This concept is so insanely simple. Also things happening or not happening when you want them to is the nature of the game, that's not exactly unique to these traits or an inherent issue.

It means you're prepared to take a whole lot more shit and put up with more shit than your average player.

Does it now? Or does it mean I'm more educated than the average player (as are frankly most people who post here, despite disagreements) and through knowledge know that things they perceive as issues aren't actually issues.

I can't fathom where you got it in your head that players like myself just magically have a high tolerance for bad game design, but that simply isn't the case. If we see game design we don't like, we're just as vocal about it as anyone else if not more so since we're all over forums and twitter and the like.

your interests are in whether you can work with what you have and how to work with what you have

Well that's damned odd considering how much time I spend researching game design, that I have a lower standard for games design apparently. Or it could be that you just dislike things on a personal level, and that there is nothing inherently wrong with the design.

I saw exactly the same thing in Zinnin

Which is hilarious, because if you payed the slightest bit of attention when zinnin still hung around I vehemently disagreed with him on the classes design almost constantly. He was one of the people not unlike yourself that placed mop demo on a pedestal, where I see it as easily one of the worst designed specs to ever be placed in the game.

Not on Live yet, but there's some good news.

Yes on live as of the time of that post.

Still, they're melee and they're tanks. Not ranged DPS. You can't explain all the impact by that.

I never attempted to explain the full impact, you're the one who brought up the melee classes introduced to the game this xpac. Druids, monks, and rogues aren't even remotely comparable to the relationship between warlocks and demon hunters. Warlocks design tropes were built on the shoulders of the demon hunter hero, we had literal mechanics directly taken from demon hunters as well as aesthetic bits that were blatant nods to demon hunters.

When they talk about class fantasy, if you wanted demon hunter warlock was the closest you got for all these years.

Warlocks were not so much undertuned in Cataclysm

Afaik the lock mechanics were pretty awful in cata outside of specific cases in specific patches. I wouldn't know though, I barely came back to the game at the tail end of cata right before mop and I almost didn't play warlock because of the design. Thankfully 5.0 remedied that.

A lot of people lobbied for buffs then, but then, as now, I produced the logs, but back then those logs said 'these specs are fine', so I respected that and worked on getting better and told others to do the same.

You're again looking at stack rankings of overall statistics, which again doesn't really tell the story of the state of the class outside of patchwerk or being disgustingly overtuned.

I'm the kind of player who is full well happy to sacrifice overall damage to do priority damage and kill fights. Warlocks have always been fantastic at this, despite it not always making you look good on the meters. That's why I bring up destro, because its basically been thee spec for this since mop and consistently one of the better specs in the game for carrying mechanics and yet has almost never been in a great position when you look at statistics stack ranking.

Back then I could do that because I knew there was plenty of wiggle room. I'm just not seeing that for Affliction. It compounds and magnifies every other issue; in much the same way over-performance of a spec can blind players to certain issues.

I'm not seeing how doing less damage with a spec that only saw really heavy use in ToT due to a broken trinket is different than choosing to do less damage with a spec now.

Like you say, I saw this in WoD 'too much change' for Demo. I moved over to Affliction and that felt pretty good, I was okay with that as I was still on the same character; but now I'm levelled with the whole same new thing all over again. I can see that Affliction could still work for me, if only they'd sort out these issues and numbers.

Which is funny, because wod practically left demo untouched mechanically. Demonbolt was really the only thing that made any significant change to the spec and you basically didn't use it outside of highmaul when it got over buffed iirc. But really all that did was make it so that you cast demonbolt instead of soul fire for dumps *twirls finger*.

But anyway the point was, you losing your enjoyment of a class because of changes =/= there being something inherently wrong with the new design that NEEDS to be addressed. We all go through it at some point since they've consistently made large sweeping changes to classes over the games life.

[ThePhantombox]

Well, I would argue that WoD warlock was pretty much MoP warlock, but worse. That was my beef back when WoD launched. This time, my beef is that Blizzard completely ignored a huge amount of beta feedback, just to have it blow up in their face.

Not listening to feedback isn't the same thing as listening and then disagreeing. At the end of the day it's their game and they can design it however they want. They're never obligated to even take feedback in the first place, be glad they even are.

[Jessicka]

You're aksing why people rallied for new things and extra mechanics to deal with warlocks shortcomings. Of course people are going to ask for that, it doesn't mean the class NEEDS it or that its good game design to add it in when they're trying to create these niches. Hence why we went down the road of overly homogenizing everything for a while.

We didn't need all of the tools, but we absolutely needed Dark Soul; because there was a meme going around at the time with 'pop your cooldowns' or something, and the Warlock just carried on as normal. It made Warlocks an unpopular choice for fights with burn phases; which with the advent of Hard Modes became really important. Either way, we got them all, and now we can pick a couple from Talents if we don't want something more useful.

Again there's nothing inherently wrong with the things you mention mechanically, you're literally arguing against basic game design 101 tropes. You can design and balance a class for ramp and sustain etc. There is nothing inherently wrong with those mechanics, they just need to be tuned properly. Hence it not being a mechanical issue, its a tuning issue.

There's not necessarily a problem, but you can go too far down that road. Just like you can with 'Warlocks don't have a burn phase' then becoming Destruction or Demo in MoP when Warlocks became a burn phase class.

I'm not instinctively against ramp up, so long as it goes somewhere. Just like I'm not instinctively opposed to maintenance buffs if they actually give you something to work with that's tangible to play around. But tell me, where does Soul Effigy take you? Where does Compounding Horror take you? Where does Fatal Echoes take you? Contagion? Reap Souls? Where does waiting for Wrath of Consumption or Soul Flame take you?

Nowhere. They bleed into each other, and ultimately, the main constraint is Soul Shards and all the rest just becomes background noise. That, ultimately, is the problem with Affliction's ramp up. It doesn't build up to anything tangible to play off, it's just ramp up for the sake of adding ramp up mechanics because Affliction always had ramp up.

If it was just about ramp, surely I'd have hated MoP Demo, right? But no, I was absolutely fine with starting at 100 Fury, because when you hit 800 it was time to go nuts. Not sure I'd particularly like Frost either, but building into a combo of RoP, Ebonbolt and a series of Ice Lances is actually very cool.

It's not like Destruction without Charred Remains lacked ramp up either; complaints about that particular aspect were generally pretty few and far between, because you could see what you were waiting for, and that wait was worth it.

Again this is where I'd disagree and say its either naivety or ignorance pushing this. Other classes absolutely have the same issues, some specs have certain talents that are smaller trade-offs, for instance implosion is barely a ST loss for a massive aoe gain, but every spec has trade-offs.

You aren't disagreeing, I said other classes have trade offs; they just don't create the same delta of trade offs as Affliction and Destruction suffer from. I lose ~15% of my ST DPS if I pick StS over Soul Siphon, that's a massive disparity.

And?

If I want aff to do X dmg with nothing dying I can very easily tune for that, and then I can tune these traits to be Y% increases when things are dying. This concept is so insanely simple. Also things happening or not happening when you want them to is the nature of the game, that's not exactly unique to these traits or an inherent issue.

The more of these you put into it, the bigger chunk of your DPS pie is taken up by them. Same with the ramp up, the more mechanics you put in, the more pie they take up. And they need to take up enough of that pie to be noticeable. It's not quite that straightforward at all. Same applies to having all those ramp up mechanics, each needs to be worth 'something' to have its worth existing, and the sheer quantity of them consumes a lot of pie, which is what in turn increases the ramp up just so much.

Do we really need two 'on death' traits? I did start to ramble on about 'on death' being anything to do with Affliction, but that's a whole other matter.

Does it now? Or does it mean I'm more educated than the average player (as are frankly most people who post here, despite disagreements) and through knowledge know that things they perceive as issues aren't actually issues.

In some cases yes, and I've agreed with you on plenty; but by no means every case.

I can't fathom where you got it in your head that players like myself just magically have a high tolerance for bad game design, but that simply isn't the case. If we see game design we don't like, we're just as vocal about it as anyone else if not more so since we're all over forums and twitter and the like.

Zinnin argued in favour of some ridiculous complexities (that were eventually pulled) simply because he was able to get more out of them.

Well that's damned odd considering how much time I spend researching game design, that I have a lower standard for games design apparently. Or it could be that you just dislike things on a personal level, and that there is nothing inherently wrong with the design.

I dunno, you have bands of players telling you 'this is badly designed, I don't like it, it feels bad to play because X, Y and Z', and yet here you are, insisting because you can pull 'acceptable numbers' with it, you're telling everyone X, Y and Z aren't problems at all; they're just 'features you don't happen to like'? I mean, unless you're going for a whole new target audience with the class/specs effected by them, then it's probably not done in the right way at the right target.

It's not like I'm specifically given to oppose given mechanics just because they fall under a specific 'type'. It's all about how it's done.

Which is hilarious, because if you payed the slightest bit of attention when zinnin still hung around I vehemently disagreed with him on the classes design almost constantly. He was one of the people not unlike yourself that placed mop demo on a pedestal, where I see it as easily one of the worst designed specs to ever be placed in the game.

Of course he did, and I now see why. I don't disagree it was probably on an edge and could have used some toning down in difficulty, but you'll also remember that I was fucking furious when they added Demonbolt to make it even more opaque; yet almost homogenising it with Destruction. I think I only used the spec on train boss after that. Again, because the disparity between "fun", Cataclysm spec, and "being useful" became too wide.

Yes on live as of the time of that post.

It's also still clickable and you have to walk all the way through it. I was evidently doing it wrong. My bad.

I never attempted to explain the full impact, you're the one who brought up the melee classes introduced to the game this xpac. Druids, monks, and rogues aren't even remotely comparable to the relationship between warlocks and demon hunters. Warlocks design tropes were built on the shoulders of the demon hunter hero, we had literal mechanics directly taken from demon hunters as well as aesthetic bits that were blatant nods to demon hunters.

When they talk about class fantasy, if you wanted demon hunter warlock was the closest you got for all these years.

They put bits and pieces in to Rogues as well, if you actually wanted melee. The Legendary Glaves were all about that. Rogues were probably more worried than Warlocks were about losing out; they've ended up gaining popularity this expansion.

Either way, I never felt blurring those lines with DHs was ever healthy or a good idea. I hated that Challenge Mode set because of that, and never pursued it. I was also heavily against the Demon Hunter Glyph. I always wanted Warlocks to be Warlocks.

I'll go back to that ramble on class identity. Affliction was never about 'death' or 'reaping', it was about inflicting suffering, pain and maladies on the living. I don't just object to the 'on death' traits mechanically, but because they're nothing to do with the spec; they're about weapon identity, not you know afflicting people with bad things. I find that whole thing just wrong and misplaced. This is why Warlocks have such poor identity to start with, no one at Blizzard really seems to have a solid idea on it; they just throw 'cool dark edgy stuff' at them, because they know people will lap up cool dark edgy stuff and its a convenient dumping ground - which they then pick up later for someone more appropriate (Shadow Priests, DKs and DHs mostly...).

Afaik the lock mechanics were pretty awful in cata outside of specific cases in specific patches. I wouldn't know though, I barely came back to the game at the tail end of cata right before mop and I almost didn't play warlock because of the design. Thankfully 5.0 remedied that.

Mechanically, Demo and Destro were a fucking mess. Affliction played really well, really smoothly, had bit of ramp which you knew was to taper multidotting; but great multidot damage, then a brutal execute; which switching from Shadowbolt to Drain Soul you really felt.

You're again looking at stack rankings of overall statistics, which again doesn't really tell the story of the state of the class outside of patchwerk or being disgustingly overtuned.

I'm seeing bottom half for three specs, there are classes that have two specs on fights outperforming any one of ours. What I see is an undertuned class people are struggling to make work outside of Dragons. I don't think I've seen a whole class get adjusted by in the region of 10% outside of a Beta before now, so I don't think Blizzard disagree with that interpretation.

I'm the kind of player who is full well happy to sacrifice overall damage to do priority damage and kill fights. Warlocks have always been fantastic at this, despite it not always making you look good on the meters. That's why I bring up destro, because its basically been thee spec for this since mop and consistently one of the better specs in the game for carrying mechanics and yet has almost never been in a great position when you look at statistics stack ranking.

You already know I'll sacrifice DPS for fun, never mind priority targets, utility, survivability and just getting the job done. There are limits though. I think our degrees of sacrifice are too high.

I'm not seeing how doing less damage with a spec that only saw really heavy use in ToT due to a broken trinket is different than choosing to do less damage with a spec now.

Again, depends how much. It's not binary. If the margins are too great, then I switch out. If I'm already behind before I start because of class balance, then I'm obliged to give up the fun in favour of being worth a damn.

Which is funny, because wod practically left demo untouched mechanically. Demonbolt was really the only thing that made any significant change to the spec and you basically didn't use it outside of highmaul when it got over buffed iirc. But really all that did was make it so that you cast demonbolt instead of soul fire for dumps *twirls finger*.

Nope. Demonbolt turned Meta into a four cast showpiece then it was over far too quickly. A very different beast, especially on councils where you'd have decent Fury income to sustain Meta for a good while. It made it much more like Destruction, which you know what I think of.

But anyway the point was, you losing your enjoyment of a class because of changes =/= there being something inherently wrong with the new design that NEEDS to be addressed. We all go through it at some point since they've consistently made large sweeping changes to classes over the games life.

Yeah, I didn't play my Shadow Priest for two expansion because they ruined it in MoP. It's great now though. I guess it happens, but when you see someone like GC step up and say "Most people leave because they changed my guy, and now it doesn't feel like my guy anymore"; then is it really a good decision to make those sweeping changes? Especially when a class is actually proving popular and you're about to implement an aesthetic competitor?

[Pdoge]

First post incoming

Mostly seeing Destro as the most viable spec in NE due to the cleave aspect, but I really need to see how these Demo players play because I haven't touched Demo since WOTLK (roast me) and like a few post said I was praying afflic would be more of the go to spec since in HFC it was pretty dominant and I enjoyed the way it played. I've felt as Destro was always good, but with the addition of Artifacts and you have to be monitoring which spec to dump all of your AP into; just seems you need to play A LOT more and grind out mythic +2 dungeons, grab 3 chests every time for the crazy amount of AP, and basically grind all 3 specs just to stay relevant as a lock. I've been on and off since Vanilla and love my lock, there's a patch today and locks get a nice little buff for all specs; I still see it as destro>demo>afflic since destro is all around great minus huge aoe unless you go cata.

Sorry for going on too long, can anyone point me into the direction of a solid demo rotation or will it not be up to par unless you have the 2nd gold trait on your artifact?

[Reaper11b]

First post incoming

Mostly seeing Destro as the most viable spec in NE due to the cleave aspect, but I really need to see how these Demo players play because I haven't touched Demo since WOTLK (roast me) and like a few post said I was praying afflic would be more of the go to spec since in HFC it was pretty dominant and I enjoyed the way it played. I've felt as Destro was always good, but with the addition of Artifacts and you have to be monitoring which spec to dump all of your AP into; just seems you need to play A LOT more and grind out mythic +2 dungeons, grab 3 chests every time for the crazy amount of AP, and basically grind all 3 specs just to stay relevant as a lock. I've been on and off since Vanilla and love my lock, there's a patch today and locks get a nice little buff for all specs; I still see it as destro>demo>afflic since destro is all around great minus huge aoe unless you go cata.

Sorry for going on too long, can anyone point me into the direction of a solid demo rotation or will it not be up to par unless you have the 2nd gold trait on your artifact?

Stickied guides at the top will get you going.

[Jaman]

Sorry for going on too long, can anyone point me into the direction of a solid demo rotation or will it not be up to par unless you have the 2nd gold trait on your artifact?

There's a demonology guide stickied at the top of this forum.

[Pdoge]

Stickied guides at the top will get you going.

anyway you could link it to me? Kind of new to using this.

[dondzon]

I posted this in affliction thread few days ago but noone replied, so i will try here and ask:

Hello. I just wanted to ask you guys(Terryn) something. After this buffs coming next reset, and Emerald Nightmare already opened what do you think will be our ultimate raid spec, cause on your guide there is only for heroics and mythic+. One more thing that is bothering me these days is our stats. On some forums and guides mastery is the one, on others is haste... Don't know whom to trust.

And for mythic+ after the buffs are out, i am thinking runing Supremacy + PS with Infernal out on trash and Doomguard on bosses for solid single target, since PS will be 15% buffed.

Thanks in advance.

[Reaper11b]

anyway you could link it to me? Kind of new to using this.

Sure /10char

http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...monology-Guide

[corgikith]

well, on pg 1, draxtor and raex actually posted about emerald nightmare. after a week of raiding and a little buffing, i am wondering what specs/talents peeps are using. i am playing destro through all as that is the only weapon i have lvled as yet. and single target with WH for all but Nythendra, Ursoc. (SC no WH on those) add FnB for Il'gynoth. am inclined to BD over RB due to sloth. like most post and reply, i look forward to peeps telling me how i am wrongly talented for every fight

i will say, i hate having to change talents for trash, but AoE is a lot of fun after buffs. why oh why do we have to use tomes or port to town to change talents. this sucks.

[Mongosaurus]

i will say, i hate having to change talents for trash, but AoE is a lot of fun after buffs. why oh why do we have to use tomes or port to town to change talents. this sucks.

Most useful thing in raids is the closet for summoning those that hearth to talent change. Because felwort sucks to get there is a limit to how many codex can be made each week. Unless you get very lucky on getting sallow from normal herbs.

I've been playing demo lately though and just sticking to most of my same talents the whole time. I can put out decent numbers with aoe with grim:Serv and demon wrath. Unlike destruction where you kind of suck at aoe unless you are talented for it.