Idea: how to make shadow orbs more reliable

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

hi guys
everybody has experienced this case: start fight off with SW:Pain then MF for shadow orb, then MF then MF, then MF, and still no shadow orb!
this is of course not the regular case, but can happen more often then wanted...
also during bossfights, the ES buff is likely to drop off one or the other time, which is extremely annoying.

this, and the fact that were the only class+specc, that actually have to skill mastery to make it somewhat usefully and reliable,
(think of the scenario, when orbs would only have 10% instead of 10+8(skilled) = 18% chance to occur! horror RNG!)
brought me to this idea:

Change mastery, so that shadow orbs have a 10-15% chance to proc, without talents. (whatever is needed to keep the balance, ie so the change would not nerf/buff sp, regarding the additional orbs from the talent, see below)
change the talent to this: (the idea obviously comes from the MM hunter spec)
Grants you a 50/100% chance (2 skillpoints) to gain a shadow orb, after casting MF two times after each other.
(the attempt to cast the second MF should suffice, or a MF 1, for pvp reasons. also, a interrupted first MF should account as a casted MF)

this would allow a marginal control over shadow orbs, giving you the possibility to get a orb if you desperately need it, without granting you 3/3 orbs for every mindblast. what do you think?
That was the main idea. here are some additional things, which would change the mastery system a bit more:

a other idea would be the same, but let MindSpike also account to this "2x casted after each other" part, and also let it generate a shadow orb. why? so that mastery has SOME effect, if you have to nuke with MS/MB (and not nullify all mastery for this purpose) and would allow you to quickly continue wiht your single target rotation (because ES is up)

or change the first part, to net let MF/SW:P generate a shadow orb at 10-15% chance, but let all spells have chance of 5-10% to generate an orb, and give MB/MS a higher chance
(ie 30% or so. for the same reason as above: give mastery usage for nuking). of course keep the 2xMF talent

greets

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

wow, no answers, not even a single troll/flame, thats astonishing. (yeah i know, now im provoking it)
everybody lost interest in the shadow orb randomness?
or is it just the last mastery buff, that soothed everyones anger to this issue? :-)

i still think its a necessity to have this small controll over shadow orbs, because its so mandatory for shadows dps to have ES up

[Deleted]

I'd much rather just get a long, lessay 3 min, CD granting one orb on use. ES falling off midfight is a rare occurence, but what plagues me much more is spending first 30 seconds of a boss without a single orb popping, driving me nuts. Such a CD would allow me to reliably start up the rotation in the beginning and potentially get back into action after some kind of phase change for example.

[Tihr]

ES has been known to fall off for me, when I've been playing Shadow.

The best way to fix it IMO, would just be to make ES passive, and make the mastery increase both periodic damage, and Mind Blast/Spike damage via Orbs. I actually prefer the way Shadow handled in WotLK over what we have now, mostly just due to this stupid mechanic.

Would also make Shadow a lot more viable in PvP, seeing as it's sometimes difficult to get a Mind Blast off when you're being focused.

[Kelesti]

I'd much rather just get a long, lessay 3 min, CD granting one orb on use. ES falling off midfight is a rare occurence, but what plagues me much more is spending first 30 seconds of a boss without a single orb popping, driving me nuts. Such a CD would allow me to reliably start up the rotation in the beginning and potentially get back into action after some kind of phase change for example.

Even a 45 second activated cooldown, off the GCD, triggering it off your next Shadow Word: Death would fix this issue.

---------- Post added 2011-03-26 at 07:04 PM ----------

ES has been known to fall off for me, when I've been playing Shadow.

The best way to fix it IMO, would just be to make ES passive, and make the mastery increase both periodic damage, and Mind Blast/Spike damage via Orbs.

You mean, you'd prefer to have Potent Afflictions or Dreadblade. Not going to happen, sorry.

Would also make Shadow a lot more viable in PvP, seeing as it's sometimes difficult to get a Mind Blast off when you're being focused.

That is kind of the point of being focused as a caster. Granted, the scene needs to change and let interrupts be toned down (less focus on instant casts) but that's another rant.

[TheTrueM4gg0t]

I just can't see that happen. implement a spell, that grants 1 shadow orb, with a CD ?
well that just seems totally lame. would help of course...
but in pvp it wouldnt help as much, because there, the problem of "no orbs up" is more regular than in pve,
thats why i looked for an idea, that grants orbs on a more "regular" basis (every 2 MF, and a bit lower percentage on MF/SWP ticks) rather than just on a fix % chance (which is very unreliable, for everybody who knows a little maths/statistics) without giving to many new orbs (ie without making it a major buff)

[Abandon]

They could just make Archangel proc three Shadow Orb.

[Deleted]

They could just make Archangel proc three Shadow Orb.

Why would I waste my archangel with no dots up? As well as wasting time of a +20% nuke phase, I'd have to MF twice anyway to get dark Evangelism back up.

Some sort of mid-length cooldown to proc one orb would be very nice. Maybe something like Kel said with a proc on SWD, or make critical hits with SWP or MF have 3x the chance to proc one.

[Abandon]

Why would I waste my archangel with no dots up? As well as wasting time of a +20% nuke phase, I'd have to MF twice anyway to get dark Evangelism back up.

Some sort of mid-length cooldown to proc one orb would be very nice. Maybe something like Kel said with a proc on SWD, or make critical hits with SWP or MF have 3x the chance to proc one.

I assumed the main issue was not getting Empowered Shadows because an orb didn't proc at the start of the fight for a long time. Using Archangel at the start would prevent that from happening if it granted an orb as well as getting it on cooldown so it comes off cooldown faster. Also, what do you mean "with no dots up"? Are you not casting any DoTs until you get an orb proc?

[Deleted]

If I had a guaranteed method of having an orb at the start, no I wouldn't have dots up before I MB'd. Currently I do put them up before orb fishing

If archangel was the method to proc orbs reliably at the start, then a lot of nuke time would be wasted by having to put up all 3 dots and shadowfiend during it, not to mention the fact that would would already have to cast 2 MFs to get enough dark evangelism procs to make the archangel worth it.

Not getting ES at the start of the fight is a huge RNG issue and dps loss, but I would much rather keep it as it is than be forced to pop AA at the start, no matter how fun it would be mid-fight - shadow startup is annoying enough as it is.

[Kelesti]

I just can't see that happen. implement a spell, that grants 1 shadow orb, with a CD ?
well that just seems totally lame. would help of course...
but in pvp it wouldnt help as much, because there, the problem of "no orbs up" is more regular than in pve,
thats why i looked for an idea, that grants orbs on a more "regular" basis (every 2 MF, and a bit lower percentage on MF/SWP ticks) rather than just on a fix % chance (which is very unreliable, for everybody who knows a little maths/statistics) without giving to many new orbs (ie without making it a major buff)

Well, what is a buff in PvP would actually cross over into PvE. Empowered Shadows falling off in PvE is allowed, just like Hot Streak/Empowered Imp not proc'ing for a minute+ is allowed.

RNG is an element of any RPG (including this one), one that's here to stay. Being able to circumvent any actual intended effect it has on your playing won't really pass as any acceptable idea. Besides, isn't the point that you don't have orbs usually because you can't cast Mind Flay in PvP that much, it's a lot of Spiking?

that grants 1 shadow orb, with a CD

And really, what do you need more than one shadow orb for, anyways?

[Töasty]

Change shadow orbs to be something like lightning shield for elemental shaman, and mind blast would be like earth shock/fulminate. Have us always have 1 orb at all times.

[Kelesti]

Change shadow orbs to be something like lightning shield for elemental shaman, and mind blast would be like earth shock/fulminate. Have us always have 1 orb at all times.

Then you'd have Lightning Shield, Rolling Thunder, and Fulmination, instead of Shadow Orbs. Last I checked, we were Priests, not Shaman, and coloring something from blue to purple doesn't really change that.

Besides, Fulmination is RNG, an ability that they have to balance two cooldowns for to hopefully make the most of it. How can you do that with Mind Blast? You can't. So you're back to casting Mind Blast on cooldown, just for the sake of it doesn't really matter. It would also lead to Empowered Shadows and the damage bonus of Shadow Orbs to Mind Blast getting nerfed.

Which is why the current implementation works, and fits Blizzard's design well. You just want something to smooth the edges out, particularily the starting rotation, hence my idea.

[Abandon]

If I had a guaranteed method of having an orb at the start, no I wouldn't have dots up before I MB'd. Currently I do put them up before orb fishing

If archangel was the method to proc orbs reliably at the start, then a lot of nuke time would be wasted by having to put up all 3 dots and shadowfiend during it, not to mention the fact that would would already have to cast 2 MFs to get enough dark evangelism procs to make the archangel worth it.

Not getting ES at the start of the fight is a huge RNG issue and dps loss, but I would much rather keep it as it is than be forced to pop AA at the start, no matter how fun it would be mid-fight - shadow startup is annoying enough as it is.

That's a good point, I was mostly just thinking of those long stretches of RNG hate where you can be flayng like mad and still not get an orb proc for 30 seconds, and I imagine they would be more likely to modify an existing ability than add an entirely new one, and it would give the option to remove some RNG in exchange for a slightly more complicated opening rotation and possible sacrifice of DPS. It still wouldn't be mandatory to use it, but would give people a choice.

[Lucapa]

Or dispersion could give a shadow orb.
The thing is: Blizz has been tolerating a huge rng factor with damage for mages since god knows how long.
Does anyone really believe they'll introduce a new mechanic that requires extra code for shadow priests? I don't.
Shadow priest mechanics became much worse with shadow orbs.

[MoanaLisa]

wow, no answers, not even a single troll/flame, thats astonishing. (yeah i know, now im provoking it)
everybody lost interest in the shadow orb randomness?
or is it just the last mastery buff, that soothed everyones anger to this issue? :-)

i still think its a necessity to have this small controll over shadow orbs, because its so mandatory for shadows dps to have ES up

You've got some answers now, but the truth is this subject has been discussed to death in multiple threads on every forum where shadow priests post. Shadow priests are doing well just now.

Any move to make orbs entirely reliable will very likely entail an unpleasant adjustment somewhere else. You are, after all, asking for more damage.

That said, I'm a firm supporter of controlling the chance of an orb based on how much mastery you have. The more mastery, the better chance for orbs to proc. It's simple, doesn't rely on complicated combinations of other spells, works within the boundaries of the current mechanic, is easy to adjust up and down as needed, and might make mastery slightly more attractive.

[Kelesti]

You've got some answers now, but the truth is this subject has been discussed to death in multiple threads on every forum where shadow priests post. Shadow priests are doing well just now.

Any move to make orbs entirely reliable will very likely entail an unpleasant adjustment somewhere else. You are, after all, asking for more damage.

That said, I'm a firm supporter of controlling the chance of an orb based on how much mastery you have. The more mastery, the better chance for orbs to proc. It's simple, doesn't rely on complicated combinations of other spells, works within the boundaries of the current mechanic, is easy to adjust up and down as needed, and might make mastery slightly more attractive.

The problem with that, MoanaLisa, is that mastery rating effectively becomes less like haste (giving you a raw damage increase) and more like crit, where it's a chance, and it curves out its effectiveness the more you get. It gets to be a rocky balance. Elemental Overload is great, when Strikes of Opportunity is not, for example.

[MoanaLisa]

The problem with that, MoanaLisa, is that mastery rating effectively becomes less like haste (giving you a raw damage increase) and more like crit, where it's a chance, and it curves out its effectiveness the more you get. It gets to be a rocky balance. Elemental Overload is great, when Strikes of Opportunity is not, for example.

Should have stopped after the first two paragraphs...hee hee.

You've got a point about the 'effective' nature of mastery which I've never considered. Perfectly valid too.

Another reason to stop after the first couple of paragraphs is that this is something that I've never really been much bothered about but figured that the easiest way to "fix" this, if indeed it's broken (which I'm not convinced it is) would be through it's source.

Thanks for the reply.