I like Outlaw!

[Sinbad101]

Caught ya.
(they changed my original title... it was "neck beard bait")

So I LOVE Outlaw. Pirates. But It has some issues. Most of my rogue.... Brotheren.. Hate it. If it's because of damage then whatever that's fine (go play a mage) but I was wondering from this forum EXACTLY what their issues with the spec are. Seriously people HATE this spec and seemingly anyone that likes it. Pathetic.
So, What do you dislike/ hate about Outlaw???

Note: Don't say RtB.. you want a reason????
Yes, i know it's a big issue for a lot of old fashioned rogues and tab targeting lovers whom probably hate dynamic game play, reaction requirments and action pact combat, or for those whom hate pirates, BUT,
I have heard enough about this 1 damn spell.
This thread is to pin point the OTHER issues that the rogue community may or may not have with the spec. Examples: Talents, rotations, artifact, spell affects, energy, scaling, stat effects, and even Fun/theme factor. That 1 damn spell i realize deters alot of rogues from playing the spec, yes i know, but everybody already knows it's an issue, so if that's your only/biggest issue then try to post your thoughts on how blizz could fix it/even replace it with something just as or more fun and thematic.

And do NOT come in here to talk about other specs or compare Outlaw and it's DPS to other specs, IDC and it's not helpful to the point. If you play Sub, i salute you edge lord. If you play Mut, i was you WOTLK - MOP but i got bored, still bores me, sorry.

Talking about Play style and Spec FEEL here people. Not damage. Get your mind of the meters. Go on.



Infracted for flaming.

[Geehbee]

I FEEL like the spec is retarded.

Since I can't say RTB because it's "1 f--king ability", that happens to be the cornerstone of the build, I would say the biggest problem is players like you who just love running around as a pirate and tell other rogues to roll a mage if they want to play a DPS spec.

[Sae]

Calling people who disagree with you neckbeards is a great way to start a conversation about the positives and negatives of a spec you enjoy.

Personally, I don't hate Outlaw at all, I think it's a great spec and I enjoy playing it; I enjoy the feel of it. I'm not so blinded by my enjoyment of the spec to ignore how flawed RtB is in a raiding environment. If you enjoy it enough to make a thread bashing people who don't, why not just play it and let other people like/dislike whatever?

[Sinbad101]

Calling people who disagree with you neckbeards is a great way to start a conversation about the positives and negatives of a spec you enjoy.

Personally, I don't hate Outlaw at all, I think it's a great spec and I enjoy playing it; I enjoy the feel of it. I'm not so blinded by my enjoyment of the spec to ignore how flawed RtB is in a raiding environment. If you enjoy it enough to make a thread bashing people who don't, why not just play it and let other people like/dislike whatever?

to see the forum react.

but yeah i agree about RtB, it needs more time to evolve and be balanced correctly. But for some they just see it and hate the spec.

- - - Updated - - -

Predictable response #1.

And yes, if you only care about numbers roll a Mage, they will always be in the top 7.

- - - Updated - - -

I FEEL like the spec is retarded.

Since I can't say RTB because it's "1 f--king ability", that happens to be the cornerstone of the build, I would say the biggest problem is players like you who just love running around as a pirate and tell other rogues to roll a mage if they want to play a DPS spec.

Oi. don't be predictable. Explain. but like i said, if it's all about numbers go play a mage.

honeslty i don't see how tracking debuffs on a target is fun or smart. so give some "smart" insight heavy set.

[mer]

Note: Don't say RtB.. Honestly it's 1 f--king ability and I'm tired of hearing rogues complain about it.

I don't hate outlaw. I have had a lot of fun with it. But the reason I won't ever commit to it as my main spec is because of RtB. I prefer to have consistent and relatively predictable damage. I have been an assassination "main" since TBC when mutilate was simply not played, and I still like the spec, but it does have some frustrating RNG elements now in Legion. Still leagues beyond outlaw in terms of my personal RNG tolerance but in general I want to be doing steady damage and not be hung up on getting good procs and stuff.

I also can't stand the anxiety of rolling 6 buffs on pointless trash and then watching them tick down as we approach a boss. Feels bad.

I don't agree with anyone that says outlaw has less complexity than the other two specs, though. Knowing when to fish for buffs and when to just roll with what you have (xd) is complexity in itself, it's not much but it's there. Making the right decision when to roll the bones is a complete game changer, and imo it's what separates good outlaw rogues from idiot button mashers who want it to be old combat spec.

[pies1]

I hate it both thematically and mechanically. "Le ebin pirate xD" is lazy as fuck and shows no creativity when they could have expanded on combat insight and made a duelist or fencer. Instead we got a collegehumor-tier abomination which seems to exist solely to force in as many "dank memes" as humanly possible.

[Sinbad101]

I don't hate outlaw. I have had a lot of fun with it. But the reason I won't ever commit to it as my main spec is because of RtB. I prefer to have consistent and relatively predictable damage. I have been an assassination "main" since TBC when mutilate was simply not played, and I still like the spec, but it does have some frustrating RNG elements now in Legion. Still leagues beyond outlaw in terms of my personal RNG tolerance but in general I want to be doing steady damage and not be hung up on getting good procs and stuff.

I also can't stand the anxiety of rolling 6 buffs on pointless trash and then watching them tick down as we approach a boss. Feels bad.

I don't agree with anyone that says outlaw has less complexity than the other two specs, though. Knowing when to fish for buffs and when to just roll with what you have (xd) is complexity in itself, it's not much but it's there. Making the right decision when to roll the bones is a complete game changer, and imo it's what separates good outlaw rogues from idiot button mashers who want it to be old combat spec.

we need more of you in this community but RtB is a little anoying. but i've seen no alternatives or fixes proposed.

I was Mut from WOTLK till Mist. I just love swords. and I prefer Dynamic games like Dark souls so i love the reaction that RtB brings, they just don't know how to design and balance something like that.

[mer]

I hate it both thematically and mechanically. "Le ebin pirate xD" is lazy as fuck and shows no creativity when they could have expanded on combat insight and made a duelist or fencer. Instead we got a collegehumor-tier abomination which seems to exist solely to force in as many "dank memes" as humanly possible.

I do not totally disagree. The pirate theme is kind of whatever to me, but you are right, they could have been less heavy-handed with the YARRRRR HAR HAR and left "outlaw" a little more ambiguous. An outlaw could be any sort of rogue character, not just a pirate. Before much of the spec was revealed last year, I imagined it as kind of a cowboy (or maybe that was just McCree hype). Either way, leaving the roleplay of the spec open to interpretation would have been a more welcome approach imo. You could still play it like a pirate if you're super into pirates, but there'd be other themes or motifs to play off of too. But yeah, no, just pirates all the way down I guess.

we need more of you in this community but RtB is a little anoying. but i've seen no alternatives or fixes proposed.

I was Mut from WOTLK till Mist. I just love swords. and I prefer Dynamic games like Dark souls so i love the reaction that RtB brings, they just don't know how to design and balance something like that.

Yes. I imagine trying to balance RtB is a headache for the developers. I would love to see it changed in a way that guarantees 2 buffs every time, but I think that would greatly increase the damage floor of the spec and it would have to be rebalanced in other areas. That said, RtB is a defining element now, and more and more I'm starting to move away from SnD as a potential concept. In other words, if it ever gets buffed into viability, I would still not use it... It would feel kind of lame at this point? I think it would take away a lot of the personality of the spec if we all just started using SnD again.

I don't know the solution. I want to say outlaw is pretty close to fine, but it needs something to make it more consistent without edging on stale or boring (which, to me, is what combat was like--very stale and boring).

[Maelstrom51]

Talkin bout Playstyle and Spec FEEL here people. Not damage. Get your mind of the meters. Go on.

I don't like the playstyle and feel of rerolling Roll the Bones over and over instead of impaling people with my sword or shooting them in the face.

[Sinbad101]

I do not totally disagree. The pirate theme is kind of whatever to me, but you are right, they could have been less heavy-handed with the YARRRRR HAR HAR and left "outlaw" a little more ambiguous. An outlaw could be any sort of rogue character, not just a pirate. Before much of the spec was revealed last year, I imagined it as kind of a cowboy (or maybe that was just McCree hype). Either way, leaving the roleplay of the spec open to interpretation would have been a more welcome approach imo. You could still play it like a pirate if you're super into pirates, but there'd be other themes or motifs to play off of too. But yeah, no, just pirates all the way down I guess.




Yes. I imagine trying to balance RtB is a headache for the developers. I would love to see it changed in a way that guarantees 2 buffs every time, but I think that would greatly increase the damage floor of the spec and it would have to be rebalanced in other areas. That said, RtB is a defining element now, and more and more I'm starting to move away from SnD as a potential concept. In other words, if it ever gets buffed into viability, I would still not use it... It would feel kind of lame at this point? I think it would take away a lot of the personality of the spec if we all just started using SnD again.

I don't know the solution. I want to say outlaw is pretty close to fine, but it needs something to make it more consistent without edging on stale or boring (which, to me, is what combat was like--very stale and boring).

Here's the thing: BLIZZ never want's it to be predictable. The only problem is that it wasn't supposed to impact damage so much but rather your rotation and priority, which it does, but we rely to much on it for reasonable DPS, which is a numbers issue. So any "Guaranteed results" ideas won't work.
SnD isn't Fun, and that's what blizz cares about with the spec: FUN. That's why it's a pirate. Boring Pirate?? nah.

But i can understand that some people don't like pirates for some reason.... I really can't think of a good reason but it's an RPG so it's still a valid one.
I would have preferred they called it "Swash Buckler", but the gun makes sense. a "Rogue" Cheats, what's a bigger cheat than going all Indiana Jones and bringing a gun to a sword fight??.

I would love it if people started to post solutions and more precise problems here.

- - - Updated - - -

I don't like the playstyle and feel of rerolling Roll the Bones over and over instead of impaling people with my sword or shooting them in the face.

Rerolling is imo the biggest issue with RtB, if only all the buffs were even.It's a new and hard to address numbers problem. But i love the reactive playstyle, it's just punishing 60% of the time. but instead of suggesting reasonable changes, people only cry and hate on it.

[Maelstrom51]

Here's the thing: BLIZZ never want's it to be predictable. The only problem is that it wasn't supposed to impact damage so much but rather your rotation and priority, which it does, but we rely to much on it for reasonable DPS, which is a numbers issue. So any "Guaranteed results" ideas won't work.

Really the only difference in playstyle between RtB and SnD is that you have to reroll RtB. Your rotation besides maintaining or rerolling the buff(s) is the same spam Saber Slash/Pistol Shot and dump with Run Through or Between the Eyes if you have the bracers. Nothing is different except you have to reroll RtB and I just don't see the appeal of it.

[mer]

Really the only difference in playstyle between RtB and SnD is that you have to reroll RtB. Your rotation besides maintaining or rerolling the buff(s) is the same spam Saber Slash/Pistol Shot and dump with Run Through or Between the Eyes if you have the bracers. Nothing is different except you have to reroll RtB and I just don't see the appeal of it.

Then you do not understand how to play around any of your 6 buffs, and you probably are not very good at outlaw. Gaining a particular buff or set of buffs should alter your decision making as you play. There is an enormous difference in your rotation depending on what you get. Yes, the abilities stay the same, but you are not blindly spamming them. Or maybe you are, I don't know. But don't.

[darkwarrior42]

Note: Don't say RtB.. Honestly it's 1 f--king ability and I'm tired of hearing rogues complain about it.

This one ability takes a spec that used to be about control and planning and turns it into a spec that's about RNG and reaction.

I was seriously considering rogue as a main, but Combat is the only rogue spec I liked (I don't like the feel of daggers), and this one ability completely and irrevocably changed the entire tone and feel of the class.

I'm sure you're tired of hearing about it, but there it is.

[Aori]

I think it is a fun spec but RtB got old fairly fast, I like it but it can be a frustrating mechanic.

[Maelstrom51]

Then you do not understand how to play around any of your 6 buffs, and you probably are not very good at outlaw. Gaining a particular buff or set of buffs should alter your decision making as you play. There is an enormous difference in your rotation depending on what you get. Yes, the abilities stay the same, but you are not blindly spamming them. Or maybe you are, I don't know. But don't.

The decision making is always the same. Saber Slash, use Pistol Shot procs unless you're overflowing on energy, finisher at 5 or 6 combo points. The buffs change the rate of occurrence for when not to use a Pistol Shot proc but they don't actually change your decision making.

[Sinbad101]

Then you do not understand how to play around any of your 6 buffs, and you probably are not very good at outlaw. Gaining a particular buff or set of buffs should alter your decision making as you play. There is an enormous difference in your rotation depending on what you get. Yes, the abilities stay the same, but you are not blindly spamming them. Or maybe you are, I don't know. But don't.

Then he doesn't know how to play any rogue spec.
we have 2 golden rules:
1. Don't cap energy
2. Don't waste Cp
RtB alters how you manage that.

- - - Updated - - -

The decision making is always the same. Saber Slash, use Pistol Shot procs unless you're overflowing on energy, finisher at 5 or 6 combo points. The buffs change the rate of occurrence for when not to use a Pistol Shot proc but they don't actually change your decision making.

yes right now it leans more towards buffing your damage other than being situations you have to react to like it was dreamed up to be. but it's not to simple. Other wise you would've have awesome Outlaw rogues with even mediocre luck vastly outclassing sh-t outlaw's with good luck.

- - - Updated - - -

This one ability takes a spec that used to be about control and planning and turns it into a spec that's about RNG and reaction.

I was seriously considering rogue as a main, but Combat is the only rogue spec I liked (I don't like the feel of daggers), and this one ability completely and irrevocably changed the entire tone and feel of the class.

I'm sure you're tired of hearing about it, but there it is.

It does have it's problem, yes, but it is still 1 ability, the only reason people chose to focus on it and make it such a big deal is because of how much it affects your damage, which it shouldn't. But honestly the whole "control and planning" thing on yet another rogue spec wouldn't have been as fun, pirates and even just swordsman react, like more dynamic action games, it just ended up being to much about luck and damage.

I will say that in PvP the spec requires the most thought because it doesn't just have easy brain dead damage like Sin/MUt and requires CC to even get 1 kill. especially since our burst kills us if not used right.






Now for anyone else posting! Plz either suggest a RtB change that aligns with blizzard not wanting the spec to be predictable and therefor boring and similar to other rogue specs,
or List some other issues with the spec besides theme. Ex: Talents, Artifact, Passives, defense, rotation, and Fun factor.

[Deleted]

Back in Cataclysm, I adored my Combat Rogue. Precisely because your DPS output was predictable. If you had a bad run, it was because YOU fucked up - and equally, if you did well, kudos to you. You know what my main was before that Rogue? Ret Paladin. Cataclysm turned Ret into a walking casino, procs everywhere (I should get over it and change my forum pic). Moving to Combat was exactly what I needed. RtB is cancer to me, just like spec defining RNG is in any spec or class. I'll never play DPS that's reactive like that.

Which is odd, because my other main is a Holy Paladin. Reactive healing is ok to me, but for DPS I look for control. Fortunately, Sub seems great to me, so I didn't mothball rogue.

[Deleted]

Rtb .

[mer]

The decision making is always the same. Saber Slash, use Pistol Shot procs unless you're overflowing on energy, finisher at 5 or 6 combo points. The buffs change the rate of occurrence for when not to use a Pistol Shot proc but they don't actually change your decision making.

Like I said, the abilities stay the same, but you are not using a rotation. For the duration of your buff(s), you are (hopefully) weighing each decision that you make. That is what defines the spec.

And yeah, I guess the entire class, but assassination and subtlety are far more forgiving in that respect.

[skindown]

Sorry, not a fan of slot machines