Feral or Rogue?

[Feranor]

But that is wrong. Because its ok for other classes to only have 1 pvp spec. But druid's MUST have 3.

/end sarcasm

-_-'

Assassination Rogue: Melee DPS
Combat Rogue: Melee DPS
Subtlety Rogue: Melee DPS

Balance Druid: Caster
Feral Druid: Melee DPS
Restoration Druid: Healer

You apparently didn't read what I wrote.

Are you honestly implying that ferals in 4.0.3 were in any way balanced?

Jesus, people will say anything about their class. If it's viable or anything less it's "total and absolute shit", and if it's totally overpowered it's "not ridiculously weak". I mean wow.

Where did I say that?

Oh, that's right, I didn't. You didn't actually read my post either.

The point is that Blizzard buffed Feral damage to the same level as everyone else (Ferals didn't ask for that). Then everyone else started whining about it (mostly because they didn't understand that Rake was bugged) and the first batch of sadists rerolled Feral. Then Blizzard gutted mobility and nerfed Berserk (no one complained about those). Thus Feral died.

[Yvaelle]

Wait so that's not a troll - this thread has successfully caught someone who honestly believes Ferals are not Overpowered right now? That's fantastic! Quick someone get the net, this is a rare specimen indeed!

[Voodoo Boyz]

Well this wasn't really intended to get into Feral being OP or not. Right now I'm pretty new and not doing any arena's yet (still trying to find a day/time with 2 other people to get the group going to try our first arena's - work is a bitch), I'm admittedly casual and I'm playing for fun and to learn/get better as a player rather than to be truly competitive or get some crazy rating.
My first foray into this last night was to see how Feral would play, I went in mostly 353/359 PvE gear, geared for a bear tank (so my Meta was off, I went with an Agi build for my tank spec). I did a new PvP spec and re-worked my bars to use the requisite abilities, and I simply had a very rough time in comparison to my Rogue that is playing at 73 w/ PvE BoA items.
Given that in my research I’ve read nothing but how Feral is OP, I found myself to be extremely squishy, I’m guessing this is because I was in PvE gear? I have a Leatherworker/Skinner, should I craft the 358 PvP gear and try again? I am using a 346 PvE weapon, so I assume that is why my damage seemed to be only “OK” rather than the crazy levels people complain about in various threads on Feral.

[Feranor]

Well this wasn't really intended to get into Feral being OP or not. Right now I'm pretty new and not doing any arena's yet (still trying to find a day/time with 2 other people to get the group going to try our first arena's - work is a bitch), I'm admittedly casual and I'm playing for fun and to learn/get better as a player rather than to be truly competitive or get some crazy rating.
My first foray into this last night was to see how Feral would play, I went in mostly 353/359 PvE gear, geared for a bear tank (so my Meta was off, I went with an Agi build for my tank spec). I did a new PvP spec and re-worked my bars to use the requisite abilities, and I simply had a very rough time in comparison to my Rogue that is playing at 73 w/ PvE BoA items.
Given that in my research I’ve read nothing but how Feral is OP, I found myself to be extremely squishy, I’m guessing this is because I was in PvE gear? I have a Leatherworker/Skinner, should I craft the 358 PvP gear and try again? I am using a 346 PvE weapon, so I assume that is why my damage seemed to be only “OK” rather than the crazy levels people complain about in various threads on Feral.

Rogues survive by using cooldowns, Ferals rely much more on resilience (plus Cat Form is one of the squishiest things around).

Also, keep in mind that most people have a horribly distorted view of Ferals because they never bothered to learn the spec. They think that Ferals:

- have 100% crit chance
- always have 5 cp / 100 energy / Predatory Strikes up
- are unkillable in Bear Form and inexplicably heal themselves
- ...

at least those are some of the assumptions their arguments require to be true.

[burkhartt]

+ feral damage - stun, dot, burst.
rogue damage - stun, tickle, tickle (outside of shadowdance/amb)

feral gets controlled - no restealth
+ rogue gets controlled - vanish/reset

feral with full row of dots (not bleeds) - lol heal
+ rogue with full row of dots (not bleeds) - cloak + recup

feral opens against other player - no protection against stealth
+ rogue opens against other player - can bomb and have protection against stealth (removes stealth)

feral cc - cyclone and roots, can be instant with PS proc
rogue cc - cheap shot + garrotte opener, kidney shot, blind and gouge.

feral slows - with infected wounds
rogue slows - crippling poisons

feral gets low on hp - barkskin, savage defense, enraged regen, bear form
rogue gets low on hp - reset thru vanish, run away and recup and bandage/eat

feral disarm - no
+ rogue disarm - yes

feral hard switch - meh
+ rogue hard switch - redirect

trying to think what else. put a + before the skill/ability that i rank higher. i play both, i like playing a rogue more but that said, maybe they'll make feral more balanced out of all of the three play specs and balance (lol) or resto would be a competitive PVP spec in the future.

there are other factors to consider, thats all i want to drop in for now.

[Yotei]

^ you forgot Maim and Bash, and Pounce.

[Brewski]

Rogues have more utility and control, ferals have more burst and will rip through anything.

[burkhartt]

^ you forgot Maim and Bash, and Pounce.

i didnt forget them. i said that there were other factors etc...

[Yvaelle]

Ferals with pvp gear are near invincible in bear form and can become actually invincible by using one of the like 5 defensive cooldowns they can cycle through while in bear. Ferals who are not tanking can turn into cats which have more single target dot damage than dot classes and possibly the highest burst of any pvp spec right now.

The problem with ferals is this: they are both cats and bears simultaneously with one spec. It would be like if arms warriors could spec 33/5/33, or ret paladins specced 5/33/33, or if shadowpriests were simultaneously blood death knights, or if frost mages could also spec into frost magic (...waitaminute). With one spec they can be a tank spec and one of the best pvp dps specs in the game - no other spec of any other class can do that like feral can - that's where their overpowered-ness comes from.

If feral was only a cat without access to bear form and frenzied regeneration and barkskin and survival instincts and bear form survivability and talents - then I think their damage would be fine - they'd be very high damage but vulnerable (glass cannons, like arc mages and non-sub rogues and shadowpriests). If they were balanced around their forms more they should have more active role flexibility to be dps or tank or cc - but they shouldn't be all of them at the same time as good or better than the classes that are already glass cannons.

If you only have time to gear up one toon because you are casual, play a feral - they have a very low skill cap, are overpowered, and have better synergy than rogues with just about any comp (because cyclone has no shared dr's with other cc's) and cat mobility means they aren't as confined as some other melee specs.

[TJ]

Feral > rogue right now.

[Feranor]

Ferals with pvp gear are near invincible in bear form and can become actually invincible by using one of the like 5 defensive cooldowns they can cycle through while in bear.

Please name those 5 invincibility cooldowns.

Ferals who are not tanking can turn into cats which have more single target dot damage than dot classes and possibly the highest burst of any pvp spec right now.

You already dismantled that yourself by pointing out that Feral DoTs are pretty much single target. They cannot just cycle through the entire team and keep everyone decked with heavy DoTs like Affli/SPriest can. Highest burst...? Ah, yes, I forgot that Tiger's Fury doesn't have a cooldown and that Berserk is passive. Frost Strike would like to have a word with you in any case, though.

The problem with ferals is this: they are both cats and bears simultaneously with one spec. It would be like if arms warriors could spec 33/5/33, or ret paladins specced 5/33/33, or if shadowpriests were simultaneously blood death knights, or if frost mages could also spec into frost magic (...waitaminute). With one spec they can be a tank spec and one of the best pvp dps specs in the game - no other spec of any other class can do that like feral can - that's where their overpowered-ness comes from.

Nope. Cat and Bear specs are already quite different. Besides, Bear Form is the Druid's equivalent of the other melees' defensive abilities. Nothing dies faster than a Druid in Cat Form. Countering Bear Form is very simple, and hasn't changed much over the years. But again, most players have no idea how Feral works, so they think it's overpowered.

If feral was only a cat without access to bear form and frenzied regeneration and barkskin and survival instincts and bear form survivability and talents - then I think their damage would be fine - they'd be very high damage but vulnerable (glass cannons, like arc mages and non-sub rogues and shadowpriests). If they were balanced around their forms more they should have more active role flexibility to be dps or tank or cc - but they shouldn't be all of them at the same time as good or better than the classes that are already glass cannons.

Feral without Bear Form would be like a Rogue without any defensive cooldowns, i.e. completely worthless. Which seemingly is exactly what you want them to be, free kills, so you don't have to bother with learning how to defeat them.

Also, Blizz is already doing this. In Vanilla Ferals were a true hybrid, they'd constantly switch between all forms, throw around HoTs and even Moonfire/Insect Swarm, use Bear Form for in-combat mobility, stuns and interrupt, Travel Form for kiting/chasing, Cat for damage etc. Now our heals are almost worthless in combat, our magical DoTs do practically no damage and most nouveau riche Ferals don't even properly use Bash or Bear Charge anymore.

If you only have time to gear up one toon because you are casual, play a feral - they have a very low skill cap, are overpowered, and have better synergy than rogues with just about any comp (because cyclone has no shared dr's with other cc's) and cat mobility means they aren't as confined as some other melee specs.

So wrong on so many levels.

[Yvaelle]

Feranor you are either a brilliantly still-in-character troll (in which case I applaud you), or you honestly believe everything you have said in this thread in which case your tears satiate me - and I gleefully await the day when they nerf feral and you lose 1000 MMR overnight - not understanding why they would nerf such a balanced spec! When that day arrives, I will be in the shadows gloating

[IAMANIKOLAS]

Rogues cons and pros

Pros:
- A lot of control, and can solehanded lock down a healer if he doesnt have good teammates (Sap - Garrote - redirected 5 points Kidney Shot - Blind - resap - smokebomb)
- Dismantle
- Very controlled burst, on a low cooldown
- Able to reset fights a lot easier
- Amazing peels

Cons
- Cooldown reliant
- Squishy when out of cooldowns

Feral cons and Pros

Pros
- High burst damege
- Instant cyclone
- Decent peels
- Undispelable bleeds
- High uptime
- High survivability
- "Immune to polymorph"

Cons
- Vulnerable to dispels (Predator's swiftness = instant cyclone is dispelable)
- Not as high control as rogue's
- Vulnerable to Scare Beast and Hibernate
- Main damege CD is on a fairly high cooldown

---------- Post added 2011-11-09 at 12:39 PM ----------

Feranor you are either a brilliantly still-in-character troll (in which case I applaud you), or you honestly believe everything you have said in this thread in which case your tears satiate me - and I gleefully await the day when they nerf feral and you lose 1000 MMR overnight - not understanding why they would nerf such a balanced spec! When that day arrives, I will be in the shadows gloating

Ways for you to counter ferals
- Get a rogue partner - have the rogue peel the druid so he doesnt eat you, and dispel him everytime he uses a finishing move to get swiftness off him, or just outrange him.
- A F-mage partner, simply keep VT up on him, and have the mage freeze him, he will be able to remove that 2 times, after that, his healer can't dispel him without eating a fear.

When a feral turns to bearform, CC him in a root or fear, so he wont get any rage, and therefor can't heal. While sitting on his healer, or other DPS, to put more pressure on the team. When his cooldowns are down, switch back to feral, have his healer eat a chain, and say bye bye feral.

[Deleted]

Go feral. They are really OP right now.

[Wolfdragon]

This Skilloverkill fellow really thinks he knows something I don't, ey mate, feral is the easiest specc to controll in the entire game, our damage outside of berserk is only decent if we have uptime- which we don't against most comps. If you believe feral is as overpowered as you say it is, I dare you imagine a feral without a single defencive cooldown, and how hard it would be to kill one? oh that's right, we'd just roll over because that's what you want- Free wins.
I'm going to assume your favourite type of 3's game is when it turns out the enemy team didn't zone in, or if one of their players is missing FREE WIIIIINZ YAAAAAAY RATING. Yeah I'm done, stop calling for unneeded nerfs because you can't deal with class mechanics.

[Deleted]

Where did I say that?

Oh, that's right, I didn't. You didn't actually read my post either.

Notice how there's a massive deluge of tears whenever a Druid spec isn't ridiculously weak? Notice how this has historically always lead to completely overblown Druid nerfs (e.g. first content patch of BC, truck load of nerfs during S3-4, 4.0.6 etc.)?

You say that, at one point, they aren't 'ridiculously weak'. You then say that 'this' (referring to the one point) leads to overblown nerfs, and state 4.0.6 as an example. If 4.0.6 was the nerf, then the previous point on the timeline was when they weren't 'ridiculously weak'. Hence, you referred to 4.0.3 Druids as 'not ridiculously weak'. We both know that this is sugar-coating it just a tiny little bit, but as you didn't implicitly say it (but rather danced around the notion), I asked the question "Are you honestly implying that ferals in 4.0.3 were in any way balanced?" in order to gather your genuine thoughts. This is the point that you put up your strawman. Please read posts in the future; it greatly enhances the forum experience.

The point is that Blizzard buffed Feral damage to the same level as everyone else (Ferals didn't ask for that). Then everyone else started whining about it (mostly because they didn't understand that Rake was bugged) and the first batch of sadists rerolled Feral. Then Blizzard gutted mobility and nerfed Berserk (no one complained about those). Thus Feral died.

1. Why is it that when Ferals are buffed, "Ferals didn't ask for [it]", but when they're nerfed, it's because "Everyone else started whining about it"? Have you ever noticed that the spec that you happen to play is in direct correlation with who you picture as the 'good guys', whereas everyone else is a whining cretin? Is this just a fantastic coincidence?

2. Why are you suggesting that every person that plays a particular spec agrees with one another? Ferals didn't ask for that; Everyone else started whining about it. Where are you gathering this data? Did you survey the player-base?

3. Why do you say feral "died"? Are you saying that feral Druids are unplayable? Because "died" to me suggests "unplayable", which - as we both know - is far from true.

[Deleted]

Go feral if you enjoy free kills on rogues
Go rogue if you like smoke bomb and disarm.

[Voodoo Boyz]

So, for an update on my playing with Feral:

I blew roughly 1k gold on crafted 358 Blues and a lot of "useless" JP on honor (my mainspec is a tank, I had a lot of excess JP doing Heroics/Zuls with my guild) on some PvP gear. I'm sitting at roughly 1.8k resilience and have a shiny new PvP helm with the right Meta in there, not bad for a toon that's PvP'ing for only a few hours over two days.

This helped immensely.

I did a few hours worth of BG's last night and I have to appreciate the versatility that Feral has. I'm not quite good enough to really take advantage of the "free" Cyclones or Roots as well as I should be able to, but just the general versatility of being able to go to Travel/Aquatic/Bear form as a Flag carrier in a BG. I did blow a few 5CP/PS procs at a Cyclone on a healer while doing defense on AB and some other BG's, which was nice - if a little jarring to pop out of cat form and then having to go back into it. I do not like "having" to go bear when getting focused on, though I suppose it's nice to have and really should be looked at as a slightly better defensive cooldown.

Overall, I had a blast doing BG's as an 85 Feral after a really long, hard day at work, and that's what matters. Really nice change of pace from my Warlock in PvP.

There are some noticeable differences compared to my 74 Rogue, like having to use my first 5CP's on a target on a Rip, rather than using them to get a second stun off on the target and keep attacks/pressure on. On my Rogue I generally will Stealth -> Cheap Shot/Garrote -> Build to 5CP -> Kidney Shot -> Build CP's, then Eviscerate

For my Feral, I rarely go beyond the initial stun from pounce since I've prioritized getting rip up. Also, the lack of a Garrote to silence casters is different. Though, stuff like this I should probably be asking in the Feral thread about what's best to do when.

I think I'm definitely going to continue to level my Rogue, since the classes are different enough to warrant having both, I probably will just focus on doing a PvE level per day on my Rogue (BG leveling is slow ), and keep jumping between my main (Warlock) for PvP until I get bored and want to experiment with this alt.

I think

[Evolixe]

Go feral if you enjoy free kills on rogues

Pardon me?

[Deleted]

Rogue is cooldown dependand and feral isn't, rogue does better burst but feral does better overall damage.

Overall it's easier to get to 2.2k as feral than a rogue but after that raiting rogue has advantage. Rogue takes way more skill than feral since you can't use your cooldowns randoms while as feral you can do that and still win