MoP Elemental Shaman - Loss Of Identity?

[Dyptheria]

Forgive me if I'm way off base here - I wasn't in the beta and I've only had a small play with Elemental (my preferred Shaman spec) on the PTR. Over the months that MoP developed, I noticed that the Elemental spec seemed to have the highest number of passive abilities of any class/spec combination in the game.

I'm a big fan of ranged DPS casters, and I have a Warlock, Mage, Shadow Priest and Elemental Shaman. In MoP the other classes have a well-defined identity and "feel" to their spec, and a range of active abilities which are unique to each spec - the Warlock is a good example of this. However, it would appear that most of the abilities used by an Elemental Shaman are class-wide anyway, and we only seem to have two active abilities unique to the spec.

As an example, Earthliving Weapon is unique to Restoration, as it should be. Windfury weapon is exclusive to Enhancement - Enhancement is a melee spec, so this too is present and correct. However, Frostbrand Weapon (which is clearly a melee-orientated imbuement) is class-wide when really only Enhancement Shamans will make use of it. Similarly, why isn't Flametongue Weapon exclusive to Elemental and focused on magical damage only? Why do Resto shamans have Lava Burst, when they have already have access to Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning?

Basically, I cannot see what gives the Elemental spec its identity, or what Blizzard sees as the "shape" of the spec. If it was up to me, Flametongue Weapon and Lava Burst Would be Elemental-only. Frostbrand Weapon and Magma Totem would be Enhancement-only. Chain Heal would be Restoration-exclusive.

If somebody here can help me out I'd appreciate it. Many thanks.

[nazrakin]

Forgive me if I'm way off base here - I wasn't in the beta and I've only had a small play with Elemental (my preferred Shaman spec) on the PTR. Over the months that MoP developed, I noticed that the Elemental spec seemed to have the highest number of passive abilities of any class/spec combination in the game.

I'm a big fan of ranged DPS casters, and I have a Warlock, Mage, Shadow Priest and Elemental Shaman. In MoP the other classes have a well-defined identity and "feel" to their spec, and a range of active abilities which are unique to each spec - the Warlock is a good example of this. However, it would appear that most of the abilities used by an Elemental Shaman are class-wide anyway, and we only seem to have two active abilities unique to the spec.

As an example, Earthliving Weapon is unique to Restoration, as it should be. Windfury weapon is exclusive to Enhancement - Enhancement is a melee spec, so this too is present and correct. However, Frostbrand Weapon (which is clearly a melee-orientated imbuement) is class-wide when really only Enhancement Shamans will make use of it. Similarly, why isn't Flametongue Weapon exclusive to Elemental and focused on magical damage only? Why do Resto shamans have Lava Burst, when they have already have access to Lightning Bolt and Chain Lightning?

Basically, I cannot see what gives the Elemental spec its identity, or what Blizzard sees as the "shape" of the spec. If it was up to me, Flametongue Weapon and Lava Burst Would be Elemental-only. Frostbrand Weapon and Magma Totem would be Enhancement-only. Chain Heal would be Restoration-exclusive.

If somebody here can help me out I'd appreciate it. Many thanks.

Well, FT is incredibly important to Enhancement, its not something Blizz can just take away without reworking the class mechanics. Resto still gets access to most of the caster DPS spells because it needs to be capable of killing.

That said, I do agree that Elemntal could use some unique spells that prove your mastery over the elements. They could do things like replace the standard Lightning Bolt with "Lightning Blast". Same spell, just more impressive looking.

[Roosky]

Elemental is in a really good place right now, I've done almost every single beta test with my guild so far and i've been topping consistantly, ofc i'm below 2 hunters because they're bugged or something and do insane dmg right now 4-5 mil more then anyone else so... it dosnt really matter because ele is #1

[Deleted]

Elemental is in a really good place right now, I've done almost every single beta test with my guild so far and i've been topping consistantly, ofc i'm below 2 hunters because they're bugged or something and do insane dmg right now 4-5 mil more then anyone else so... it dosnt really matter because ele is #1

This has nothing to do with numbers. The OP's concerns are that he/she feels that ele doesnt have enough "unique" tools to separate it from the other two specs like say, mages. If you see a mage casting frost bolt you know he's frost and if he casts fireball, you know he's fire etc. You get the idea anyway.

As to the OP, we might not have lots and lots of unique Elemental abilities but lets face it, not many classes do. We still have our Thunderstorm, Earthquake, (spammable) Chain Lightning (which the other two specs cannot do) and of course, Fulmination, which while it doesnt have a fancy animation, if you hit someone with it, they will know your Elemental.

[Nebria]

As to the OP, we might not have lots and lots of unique Elemental abilities but lets face it, not many classes do. We still have our Thunderstorm, Earthquake, (spammable) Chain Lightning (which the other two specs cannot do) and of course, Fulmination, which while it doesnt have a fancy animation, if you hit someone with it, they will know your Elemental.

Thats it. Especially the spamed Chain Lightning identifies a Elemental Shaman very good^^

[Damax]

There's nothing changing from live.... I don't know how you lost identity because elemental shaman on live doesn't have anything more than on ptr. The only ''ability'' you lost is elemental mastery which was just like an overpowered nature's swiftness. you still use lightning bolt filler, you still keep flame shock up, you still lavaburst (but you get nomnom instant ones) you can still be a running turret and you still earthquake to chain lightning spam.

you still have thunderstorm, still uses lightning shield, still use fulmination... did I miss something? oh yeah your fire totems used to give 10% spell power now you yourself gives your group 10% spell power.

The fact is people will indentify you more quickly than you think in pvp and arena just like on live. maybe you should just roll mage... each spec do feel full of identity. XD

[Dyptheria]

The fact is people will indentify you more quickly than you think in pvp and arena just like on live. maybe you should just roll mage... each spec do feel full of identity. XD

Perhaps you should have read my post from the beginning? I already have one of those. My point is that with the 5.0.x revamp, Blizzard took the opportunity to give each specialization exclusive abilities, and with the other classes, quite a few of them. My point is that Elemental does not seem to have benefitted to the same degree as Enhancement or Restoration. Resto getting Lava Burst is a good example of this: Lava Burst is a DPS ability, Resto can get Elemental Blast at 90 anyway if the player wants that, so why does Resto have access to Lava Burst?


@nazzrakin

I agree that taking away FT would require a class rework, so that's out. Yes, Resto needs killing ability but they have Lightning Bolt and Chain Lighting anyway. Just how much DPS is Resto expected to do?

[woopytywoop]

I agree that taking away FT would require a class rework, so that's out. Yes, Resto needs killing ability but they have Lightning Bolt and Chain Lighting anyway. Just how much DPS is Resto expected to do?

we're master of the elements. Water, earth, wind and fire. It wouldn't make sense to let resto only have nature spells.

Besides, it's also nice for resto to use a LvB in pvp knowing when they interrupt that, they still have their nature school not locked so they can heal.

[Nebria]

@Dyptheria
so Earthquake and Thunderstorm is not enough for you?
Have you checked Balance Druides what they get what the Tree can't use?

Warlocks and Mages are pure DPS classes where each spec is defined really sharp like what element they use or what kind of dmg source they use.
Blizzard did something similar for elemental. When you take a look to Ascendence you see that Elemental = Fire, Enhance = Wind? and Resto = Water.
As Lavaburst is Fire it would feel natural to give it to Elemental only.

I guess they didn't apply this philosophy when they selected the skills for each spec or they don't wanted to remove a damage source for Enhancement (do they use Lavaburst?) as they would have to compensate it and that Restro can use it is just some kind of "collateral damage" (or profit). Having some non nature spell is always good for pvp (damn lockout). I am also not sure but the FS on target = LvB Crit is common to all Specs or just Elemental?
Would really be nice to have some "OMG WHAT THE HELL" spell that hits like a truck and could be the signature/identity spell. However we are made as machine gun with a lot of overload chances and having some big truck would be a balance hell for burst dmg.
So in the end it is just Earthquake and Thunderstorm and Chain Lighnting Spam (yes really) which is very cool.

[ThePenguinFreak]

My point is that with the 5.0.x revamp, Blizzard took the opportunity to give each specialization exclusive abilities, and with the other classes, quite a few of them. My point is that Elemental does not seem to have benefitted to the same degree as Enhancement or Restoration. Resto getting Lava Burst is a good example of this: Lava Burst is a DPS ability, Resto can get Elemental Blast at 90 anyway if the player wants that, so why does Resto have access to Lava Burst?

Honestly, who cares? Just because Resto has access to Lava Burst does not make it any less of a signature Elemental spell. The "identity" of the spec comes more from the rotation and how the spells are used, not from whether the other specs can use them.

[Protoman]

I agree that imbues do not feel like they do much for the caster specs, just enhance....like the melee procs only benefit enhance, when they could do something like for elem get a little extra fire damage or frost snare proc added to their casts. Their FT is just used for the bonus spell damage. Even Resto gets a bonus hot from their elw. The unleash effects are a little boring too.

Elem playstyle is simplistic but it works, got your basic filler LB, bursty LvB, cleave/aoe CL.....proc for instant casts w/ LvB off your fire dot, and your nature filler spell procs more nature damage for your nature instant ES. So they do have some working themes, although I think they could use a few more baseline tools like mobility with Imp GW, better totem HP with totemic vigor, and for elem a form of passive defense or a personal def cd separate from their talented ones.

Personally, I think the whole Shaman class is do for a revamp and update to give it some "identity/flare", just like warlocks got this xpac. The class needs some depth and further specialization to really make each spec stand out and feel unique, with some more interesting mechanics and a new and involved secondary resource.....possibly even a new frost spell that both ele and enh can use execute style (or Elem Blast tweaked to be good for execute, like "when damaging an opponent <30%HP your EB cd will reset, be instant, and possibly do increased damage").

[Dyptheria]

@Dyptheria
so Earthquake and Thunderstorm is not enough for you?
Have you checked Balance Druides what they get what the Tree can't use?

Warlocks and Mages are pure DPS classes where each spec is defined really sharp like what element they use or what kind of dmg source they use.
Blizzard did something similar for elemental. When you take a look to Ascendence you see that Elemental = Fire, Enhance = Wind? and Resto = Water.
As Lavaburst is Fire it would feel natural to give it to Elemental only.

While you're correct about Warlocks and Mages being pure DPS classes, look at Shadow Priests. They play and look very differently from Holy or Discipline, they have lots of active abilities and yet like the Shaman, the Priest is considered to be a hybrid class. Additionally, Balance Druids have nine active abilities, Feral has four, Guardian has nine and Restoration has nine.

The point I'm trying to make is this: the Elemental spec looks as if Blizzard didn't really know what to do to make it stand out from the other two specs. Yes it's true the benefits are a little more subtle and not so obvious as to stand out from a spec sheet - I'll give you that much. Marksmanship Hunters seem to have been built along the same lines.

OK, here's an example of what I'd like to see:

Volcanic Eruption
50% of base mana 30 Yards
Channeled

Causes the ground around the target to suffer a
Volcanic Eruption, striking all targets in the area
with molten lava and causing x damage over 5
seconds. Hits all affected targets with Flame Shock.

See what I mean?

[Endus]

The point I'm trying to make is this: the Elemental spec looks as if Blizzard didn't really know what to do to make it stand out from the other two specs. Yes it's true the benefits are a little more subtle and not so obvious as to stand out from a spec sheet - I'll give you that much.

That's a reflection of two things; solid class design, and three significantly different roles our specs play.

A pure class like a Hunter or Mage needs a lot of variation between specs to distinguish between them; if a Fire Mage and a Frost Mage both use Fireball and Frostbolt in their rotations, the differences between them start to blur; they're both casters and they both use the same spells. Shaman don't need the same distinction, because each spec is a completely different role; a Healer is going to use spells differently than a melee DPS, who will use them differently than a caster. That role distinction already distinguishes each spec from the other, so we don't need major spec differences to make that distinction even more clear. Instead, as with analogies, the differences we have are highlighted by the shared abilities; each Shaman spec uses Lightning Bolt, but they each use it in a COMPLETELY different way. That helps strengthen the connection between specs, thematically, while they each retain a separate identity reinforced by their role distinctions.

Paladins are a good comparison; they do much the same thing, sharing a lot of abilities and relying on the role distinctions to make the difference. You see this less with, say, Druids, because Druids have the shapeshifting thing, and they tried to make each shapeshift very much separate from the others. As a result, this means each Druid spec feels COMPLETELY different from the others, which isn't necessarily a class strength in my opinion.

[Aramile]

@Dyptheria
they don't wanted to remove a damage source for Enhancement (do they use Lavaburst?)

Just wanted to respomd to this to let you know that... No, Enhancment shamans are not meant to use LvB in any way shape or form. LvB does not benefit from maelstrom stacks and would interrupt our swing timers losing WAY more damage than the garantee'd crit would provide.

This is how it is on Live. Unless I'm mistakin, I'm fairly sure they removed from Enhancement all together in MoP.

[Dyptheria]

@Endus

Certainly what you say applies on Live, but much less so in MoP - in MoP the Fire Mages by and large do not have access to the main Frost spells and vice versa. Warlocks are even more distinct, and Shadow Priests even more.

I take your point about the distinction being more about usage rather than ability; I guess I was looking/hoping for more Shadow Priest-like distinction from this particular hybrid class.

[nazrakin]

That's a reflection of two things; solid class design, and three significantly different roles our specs play.

A pure class like a Hunter or Mage needs a lot of variation between specs to distinguish between them; if a Fire Mage and a Frost Mage both use Fireball and Frostbolt in their rotations, the differences between them start to blur; they're both casters and they both use the same spells. Shaman don't need the same distinction, because each spec is a completely different role; a Healer is going to use spells differently than a melee DPS, who will use them differently than a caster. That role distinction already distinguishes each spec from the other, so we don't need major spec differences to make that distinction even more clear. Instead, as with analogies, the differences we have are highlighted by the shared abilities; each Shaman spec uses Lightning Bolt, but they each use it in a COMPLETELY different way. That helps strengthen the connection between specs, thematically, while they each retain a separate identity reinforced by their role distinctions.

Paladins are a good comparison; they do much the same thing, sharing a lot of abilities and relying on the role distinctions to make the difference. You see this less with, say, Druids, because Druids have the shapeshifting thing, and they tried to make each shapeshift very much separate from the others. As a result, this means each Druid spec feels COMPLETELY different from the others, which isn't necessarily a class strength in my opinion.

I think there is a pretty well defined "look" for almost every other spec out there. To the non-shaman a Resto Shaman DPSing pretty much looks exactly like an Elemental Shaman DPSing. Priests are locked out of a ton of Shadow Spells and some of the spells they do share look very different. Balance shares a lot of spell with Resto, but he has the advantage of being a giant chicken.

While I don't think its a high priority, I would like to see Elemental be a bit more distinguished.

[A dot Ham]

I think that the class lost its identity back in BC days.

When lightning bolt was reincorporated into the rotation of an enhancement shaman it was all down hill. In fact the use of it has been the biggest struggle for blizzard and the development team because players are constantly trying to use spell power for enhancement.

I think elemental needs to remain the same... and take away ranged spell damage abilities (the ones that would make elemental unique) and give them purely physical abilities. That... OR make them function in a VERY different way.

[Dyptheria]

Erm...so if you take the ranged abilities away from Elemental, what makes them different from Enhancement?

[Migrin]

I don't think elemental and enhance feel to equaly. I agree that the number of active skills per specc is rather insignificant. As you stated correctly, the number of passives on the other side is quite impressive. As ele, we do not really have a signature spell in our single target rotation. It's the way how the spells work that distinguish the specs. If they just removed all elemental spells from enhancement, it would simply not feel shamanistic anymore.

I personally don't know what to add to ele. A dot? nah..We burst stuff down, we don't lame it to death. And an other bursty spell with cast time? Cool, I have to hit one more button that does the same as LB with an other figure popping up. I agree with you that some more depth would be a cool thing to have, but I honestly don't know how this should be achieved. This is something I like to refer to as "The curse of the hybrid". As a game designer it is really hard to make hybrid specs individual without losing the connection behind.

[Protoman]

I don't think elemental and enhance feel to equaly. I agree that the number of active skills per specc is rather insignificant. As you stated correctly, the number of passives on the other side is quite impressive. As ele, we do not really have a signature spell in our single target rotation. It's the way how the spells work that distinguish the specs. If they just removed all elemental spells from enhancement, it would simply not feel shamanistic anymore.

I personally don't know what to add to ele. A dot? nah..We burst stuff down, we don't lame it to death. And an other bursty spell with cast time? Cool, I have to hit one more button that does the same as LB with an other figure popping up. I agree with you that some more depth would be a cool thing to have, but I honestly don't know how this should be achieved. This is something I like to refer to as "The curse of the hybrid". As a game designer it is really hard to make hybrid specs individual without losing the connection behind.

I really think Shaman could use a revamp to help distinguish each spec and give them some more depth, with some unique spells and mechanics, along with a secondary resource.....similar to the pally treatment, and what locks are getting this xpac (I still don't think they really needed a revamp....a unique resource for each spec is pushing it especially when they just got a new resource in Cata....with Monks taking up alot of resources already they should have just gave them the routine updates and spread that developer time to all classes!!).

Enh and Ele have shared alot of spells.....our AoE was the same for a long time with FN+magma plus CL, and even the first incarnation of FLS+FN, only now is there some differentiation where Ele is CL spam with EQ and magma (and occasional TS), while Enh is FN and FLS, with CL and magma. Both specs use their shocks, although Elem has a mechanics which add some depth to their shocks that I really like, such as their casted nature spell LB buffing their instant nature spell ES to enhance it's "instant, bursty" aspect.....and then their instant fire dot FLS ticks having a proc to make their casted fire spell LvB instant. It fits thematically and would have liked to see something like that for Enhance, specifically boost the "burst" aspect of ES and the "periodic" aspect of FLS.....but I guess free LL's from FLS would be even more similar mechanics. Enhance had Frozen Power though, which boosted the "control" aspect of FRS but now thats available to any shaman so we kinda lost our unique buff to shocks.

Both specs use LB, shocks, ULE, FLS, ES.....and I guess LS in PVE.....Ele's set apart by LvB and stronger ES, Enh is set apart by SS and LL plus imbue damage. Not too many unique spells/abilities, although a few unique mechanics......some extra unique spells with signature animations would help, or buffs/mechanics that also have flashy animations to set them apart....so you just know right away what type of spec you are playing against (other then the obvious caster vs melee).


-----


I think going more into the element that represents each spec would be a good idea:

Elem: Fire aspect, +nature
Enh: Wind aspect, +nature, fire
Resto: Water aspect, +nature
Warden: Earth aspect, +frost (tank spec lol....would be cool to see an earth based tank with unique frost related spells)

Elem has a unique Fire spell with LvB and relies on FLS alot, but Enhance doesn't have much to do with Wind other then WF and maybe Wind Shear but that all Shaman use (but could be enhanced for Enhancement such as 4sec lockout, 2sec silence, or have WS also purge one buff when used). So perhaps some new abilities to reflect their elements would help, plus elemental related buffs and animations like auras/trails. It would also be cool to see a new Frost ability for both Enh and Elem, but two different abilities like a spell for Elem and a melee ability for Enh. I was hoping they would do this in MoP since we are really missing Frost related abilities in our shaman toolkit, but closest thing we got is Elem Blast which is a pretty cool animation but a lame spell IMO (atleast that buff is).

-----

So for a new Frost ability, what do Elem and Enh lack currently that this ability could help with?

Elem:
Not sure, but I guess burst and CC? LvB was their burst but its been pretty nerfed cause of ele overload and how much more often you can use it with stuff like lava surge procs and Ascendance. They also don't have many shock Cd's free to use FRS cause they need FLS for LvB and multidot for lava surge procs, plus ES for their timed burst. So this frost spell could be on a CD and good bursty damage plus snare enemy, and if target is already slowed (by anyone) it will root them instead....and if they are already rooted, then it could do a freeze stun (aka Deep Freeze) with icd on that effect. Lava surge could also be used for the Frost spell instead of LvB so you get instant casts.

It could prob use some more synergy with other ele spells by giving it a unique effect, I would let it offer some dispel protection with something like "shields your shock debuffs with an icy wall, preventing them from being dispelled" (could be a debuff that protects for it's duration, of like 10-15 sec or so to protect FLS dot, or could have charges that protect FLS from next 1-2 dispels or something). This way after getting FLS on a target, you use the frost spell to protect your FLS Dot and don't have to worry about it being removed which frees up other shocks and full damage potential on that one target.


Enh:
Our LL gives decent burst, but I would like to see an execute.....although I think that could simply be done with a mechanic that resets LL CD when dpsing a target <30%HP and mebbe also buffing LL damage to make up for no SF stacks. A frost melee ability could also be our actual melee cleave or AoE, but I do kind of like CL cleave w/ MW5 since the animation is cool and its a signature spell, and our AoE w/ FN + FLS is kinda unique and potential to be powerful plus our problems with that I feel could be easily solved by just making it's spread mechanic based on FN only, and not LL, which would make our AoE much easier to use. The one problem with our FN is that you need a target and need FLS ticking on it first, while a real melee based aoe can just be used anytime for a frontal or 360 attack....although they could potentially make FN work like Howling Blast by triggering from a target, then just like HB apply/spread Frost fever have FN apply/spread FLS (prob only 2, not 4) and it can multiply from there for ramp up....would be a perfect fix for our AoE.

So what would this Frost strike be used for then? Control maybe just cause its frost, but our FRS already does that well enough plus ULE FB. Our ULE FB also covers the mobility aspect too, the whole "freeze them and free yourself" theme of ULF FB would have been good for this frost strike but I guess it's already taken. So really I can only think of something burst/execute related.....or maybe as a "filler" attack that could be our main way of letting haste benefit our abilities and "do more".....it could fill that gap we usually end up hardcasting MW in along with proc'ing MW so after using the frost strike our MW5 will be full and ready to use. To help synergize with the rest of our abilities I am thinking it could have a unique stacking buff that increases its damage and after a certain cap, the next time you use it will do significantly more damage along with resetting the CD of either SS or LL (basically my previous suggestion for MW5, but based on this new frost ability instead).

For example: "Frost Slash"- 4-5 sec CD, Does 115% weapon damage as Frost damage to target, builds 1-2 stacks of MW. Each time you use FS you will gain a stack of "Freezing Flames" buff, which increases damage of Frost Slash by 5% for each stack, up to 5. After 5, next time you use Frost Slash it does like 100% more damage plus will reset the CD on your SS (or LL), this effect cannot occur more then once every 45 seconds.

(Idea here is it's a lower damage ability then our other attacks, so low priority, but low CD so a filler during gaps or can be used on CD to build quickly up to 5 stacks where it will then actually do good damage plus reset a main melee strike....so you just hold onto it when you want to time burst/kills)

So Enhance would finally have a way to time their burst short term in PVP, similar to how Elem can hold onto their full stack fulm for ES when they want to burst a target quick. We could build up our FS stacks over time (bout 25-30sec) and then save it when at 5 stacks, so we will have a higher damage FS that will also reset an ability but not something we gotta use in our regular rotation to maintain normal DPS like our other abilities. So when we want to use a string of abilities in a row we can do something like MW5>LL>SS>FS>SS (then prob MW5 again with all those melee abilities that can gain MW charges) all one after the other to get alot of damage out in a small window......but only when WE want to use that burst and not have to like with LL, and with the icd of 45 sec its not something we can do all that often but atleast once a minute.