Crying about PVP realms ''Blue'' response

[Deleted]

In that case, why did people roll on PVP servers then? And then complain about PVP going on in the old world? (yes, in Blizzard's world ganking is PVP)

Because there was very little world pvp, obviously.

But some, with people who you could get revenge on etc

See - people being fine with old style pvp and hating the CRZ version etc

[Kathranis]

What are you even talking about?

Are you trying to say that ganking isn't as common as it used to be in Classic? Because I got ganked and camped many times while leveling my first rogue on Mug'thol server. Part of the reason I rolled a rogue was so I could stealth and avoid getting ganked. I remember getting camped in the yeti cave in Hillsbrad by a level 60 player, and getting camped by a player in Stranglethorne Vale the first time I went there, on the road between Booty Bay and Gurubashi Arena.

And there was plenty of ganking in Burning Crusade, too. I remember once getting camped by a gnome warrior in Terrokar before I got my flying mount, using a flying mount / guard exploit to prevent me from fighting back.

Did you see me complaining? No. I play on a PvE server now because my friends all rolled PvE. I don't experience those issues anymore, and haven't since Wrath of the Lich King. However, I can say with certainty that this is nothing new. Even with CRZ letting people escape and ambush from nearby zones, it's no different from how it was in Classic when they could flee on their 100% speed mounts, or in BC/Wrath when they could use their flying mounts.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

The only cause is kill whoever has red name plate.

You're playing the wrong game if WoW is only that, Brytryne.

[Brytryne]

You're playing the wrong game if WoW is only that, Brytryne.

Never said I didn't play PvE.

[Nerraw]

Only because it attracts the same LFD/LFR trash players are disgusted with, because it's easy for them to be community killers (remember consequence free PvP?).

You're gonna have to be more specific about that. If you're talking about the removal of dishonorable kills, those never prevented the ganking done by the people whose only goal was to kill off as many newbies on the opposite faction as possible. Those people have always been there.

CRZ would be wonderful with stricter rules for being a public affair

PVE realms has that.

not more ninja looting/LFR loot madness that predated it's release

I suggest you try LFR now and try to ninja-loot something.

As for LFD, it'll be introduced there soon enough. Why roll out a somewhat untested system to all of the game's facets at once when you can test it out only where it's required the most?

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 06:10 PM ----------

simple solution either merge all the low pop servers or just CRZ those unless there's major faction imbalances.

Again we're back to the "ruining of communities"-thing. Everything Blizzard does, or doesn't do, has consequences. Just because they're not immediately apparent to us doesn't mean they're not there. Server merges will come eventually, whether in the form of CRZ or something else. Remember, CRZ has been on live servers for no more than a quarter of a year. They want to make sure it's working right before making a game-changing decision like merging realms. As someone inhabiting a near-dead realm, I can wait until they work out the kinks of the system.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 06:12 PM ----------

Do you play basketball or some sport or games with friends? If you EVER behave like an asshole while playing with other people you'd get kicked out of the team, even if you behave like an ass against the other team. If you're in the wrong neigbourhood, you'd get punched in the face too ^^

PVE servers are like real life. There are consequences for everything you do. PVP servers are anarchy, they're ruled by the strongest. And that's the point of them.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 06:16 PM ----------

Because there was very little world pvp, obviously.

But some, with people who you could get revenge on etc

See - people being fine with old style pvp and hating the CRZ version etc

Then what were the difference between PVE servers and PVP servers? In both cases, you only got PVP when you actively sought it out.

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 06:17 PM ----------

You're playing the wrong game if WoW is only that, Brytryne.

PVP servers are for the people who don't have a problem with this. PVE servers are for the people who do have a problem with this.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

In that case, why did people roll on PVP servers then? And then complain about PVP going on in the old world? (yes, in Blizzard's world ganking is PVP)

Because they're too lazy for the most part to create world PvP. So they go where it's easier to find those 30+ levels lower than them to gank.

On PvE realms the new trend in PvP is to wear the Orb of Deception and kill guards to abandon (Blizzard needs to change that like RIFT did, even if you chose to be non-flagged for PvP, any guard attacks will flag you being attacked. It's a method to get away being targetted if not attacking, not a method to exploit the mechanics).

Point is PvPers for the most part want to be catered too on their terms, terms that can be detrimental to the game itself. They're not there for community (which MMOs and especially MMORPGs are about) but treating MMORPGs as some FPS game. There's FPS games where no one argues about killing opposing teams as that's the complete game design. When I play BF3 I'm not complaining about the opposing team killing my team, as that is the point of the game. WoW is MUCH more than just "red is dead".

[thunderdragon2]

Because there was very little world pvp, obviously.

But some, with people who you could get revenge on etc

See - people being fine with old style pvp and hating the CRZ version etc

i agree i'm fine with the old system hating the new one

[Keoren]

PvP certainly affects others players and may mean that they can't reach the goals they have set in a reasonable amount of time, as some of you have stated. However, the justification for this is that by creating a character on a PvP realm you technically agree that your time is no longer fully your own. You become part of the content. That is one of the core principles of PvP.

Talking about the human nature is also an extremely far-fetched topic with no black and white answers. Humans are not inherently "good". The kind of behaviour that is manifesting itself on PvP realms is completely natural and supposedly takes part amongst a crowd that agreed to be subjected to it.

Murder only happens with primates and rats, Endus.

Murder is not normal behavior. Even without civilized laws (by the primitive laws of survival of the fittest) early man understood that killing your young eliminate your band eventually.

Even Neanderthals had funeral rites and took care of their sick.

So murder even by nature's laws is no way "normal", it actually goes against survival of the species itself (why civilized laws exist, to make it possible to even have civilizations).

US and THEM mentality is extremely hardwired to humans. While the average human might've not been killing their own, they certainly had no issues harming those whom they did not consider part of their group, even babies. This is still evident today and not only in the form of violence.

PvP in itself is also based on the us and them mindset.

[Brytryne]

WoW is MUCH more than just "red is dead".

Not to everyone. I made you a picture, please study it.

[h4rr0d]

I still don't understand how anyone sane can consider anything CRZs have enabled as PVP. A lvl 90 drops from a flying mount out of nowhere, 1shots the lowlevel (all the way to lvl 85) and before he even knows where the strike came from the killer is back in the skies. How that is PVP really escapes me. Could you imagine Blizzard (or any other company) implement a mob that will every now and then pop out of nowhere, 1shot you and disappear again? Because that's basically the kind of experience people leveling on PVP servers are getting.
LVL 90 world PVP is virtually nonexistent as it always has been. At least on my realm anyway. No one would fight even in the new cave system in Karasang wilds for the faction dailys - the other day I went to the elite twin Mogu, begin to kill them, opposing faction warrior joins the fight and then when mobs are dead we run out of the room side by side without any attempt of hostility what so ever.

[Deadite]

PvP happened on a PvP realm. Plain and simple.

What, do you think it was all rainbows and flowers in classic WoW? No. You got ganked by level 60 characters all the time. If you were lucky you could maybe get some higher level players to come help, or switch to a max level alt and track down the character who was ganking you, but more often than not they would high tail it as soon as confronted with another max level.

Yeah but back then you knew who was killing you and revenge could be had at some point. Back then it was all about rivalries. That sum bitch Bob just killed you! Bob went on the list!. Now you have 10 random guys from 10 random realms killing you and you will never see them again. While it is still pvp the spirit of world pvp has been lost forever thanks to CRZ imho. I know i am probably in the minority but killing people just for the sake of killing them is pointless to me. Win , lose or draw its just an anonymous guy you have fought. With no bragging rights or revenge for the fight they may as well just go the same route as GW2 and remove the names from world pvp. There is no emotional bond with the guys you are fighting now anyways.

[Brytryne]

Could you imagine Blizzard (or any other company) implement a mob that will every now and then pop out of nowhere, 1shot you and disappear again?

Deathwing?

[Nerraw]

Because they're too lazy for the most part to create world PvP. So they go where it's easier to find those 30+ levels lower than them to gank.

So the problem isn't so much that ganking occurs, but that people actually get ganked back now? That explains a lot, people always complain when they're suddenly not automatically at the top of the foodchain anymore. This makes me even more pleased about the complaining. Sweet, delicious tears.

On PvE realms the new trend in PvP is to wear the Orb of Deception and kill guards to abandon (Blizzard needs to change that like RIFT did, even if you chose to be non-flagged for PvP, any guard attacks will flag you being attacked. It's a method to get away being targetted if not attacking, not a method to exploit the mechanics).

That's a whole other issue. Whether they should follow RIFT's example or not I can't say. I don't generally play on PVE servers so I don't know how big the problem is.

Point is PvPers for the most part want to be catered too on their terms, terms that can be detrimental to the game itself. They're not there for community (which MMOs and especially MMORPGs are about) but treating MMORPGs as some FPS game. There's FPS games where no one argues about killing opposing teams as that's the complete game design. When I play BF3 I'm not complaining about the opposing team killing my team, as that is the point of the game. WoW is MUCH more than just "red is dead".

And that's why we have BGs and arenas; for serious PVPers to do business on their own terms. You're talking about BF3 specifically. Unless the server admin is a complete moron, the matches will always be as equal as possible in terms of people. Everyone has access to the same classes, and there's an equal amount of people. The rest is down to skill. Same goes for BGs and arenas in WoW. You know what you're facing and what tools are at your disposal to deal with it.

The open world on PVP realms is different from that. There are no terms, no rules. The strongest will always come out on top. There's nothing fair about it. And that's the whole point. It adds a whole new level of excitement to the game when you can, and should, expect to be taken down at any moment.

[alucardtnuoc]

Still say, an easier method to sort the problem is to have if you kill someone who is +5 lvls lower then you, you can't mount up for 5 mins, lets say every +5 lvl difference it's another 5 mins (cap of 20 mins)

Hard to out run players on foot.

[Nerraw]

i agree i'm fine with the old system hating the new one

At least this one has people in it.

[Drfireburns]

Deathwing?

lol. Beat me to it.

[Nerraw]

Not to everyone. I made you a picture, please study it.

[img]http://i.imgur.com/G9VHg.png[img]

What if someone feels like they participate in all three of those things?

---------- Post added 2012-12-23 at 06:51 PM ----------

I still don't understand how anyone sane can consider anything CRZs have enabled as PVP. A lvl 90 drops from a flying mount out of nowhere, 1shots the lowlevel (all the way to lvl 85) and before he even knows where the strike came from the killer is back in the skies. How that is PVP really escapes me. Could you imagine Blizzard (or any other company) implement a mob that will every now and then pop out of nowhere, 1shot you and disappear again? Because that's basically the kind of experience people leveling on PVP servers are getting.
LVL 90 world PVP is virtually nonexistent as it always has been. At least on my realm anyway. No one would fight even in the new cave system in Karasang wilds for the faction dailys - the other day I went to the elite twin Mogu, begin to kill them, opposing faction warrior joins the fight and then when mobs are dead we run out of the room side by side without any attempt of hostility what so ever.

You know what PVP stands for, right? Player versus Player. As long as it's one player attacking another, it's PVP. It may not be the PVP you desire, it may not be fair PVP, or balanced in anyway whatsoever. But, it's PVP. And that is what PVP servers are for. To allow the raw, brutal core of PVP to unfold in the game.

[crakerjack]

That's nothing new... that's what I've been telling people who complain... except when I used to gank, I would camp their corpse and wait for them to hop on their main, and then i'd kill them. Man... I miss arena rating... it's what made this game good... because it separated the good and the bad. Bad players will always make up the bullshit excuse "Everyone having the same gear makes for an even playing field" ok yea... but I'm still walking away with half my health when you're dead because you're still not as good as me. If I could get full wrathful which requires atleast 2k rating, I'm sure others can... That was the best feeling, rolling into a bg with a couple of your arena buddies and just packing it up... slaughtering kids left and right. I'll never see a point in this game where the game is as fun as it was then.

[Endus]

Yeah but back then you knew who was killing you and revenge could be had at some point. Back then it was all about rivalries. That sum bitch Bob just killed you! Bob went on the list!. Now you have 10 random guys from 10 random realms killing you and you will never see them again.

This is simply not true. It's not 10 "random realms". CRZ uses select realms and, where possible, maintains the same realms between various zones. It does not change dynamically, it does not even change day to day or week to week. The only reason those select servers will change is if it is manually adjusted by Blizzard.

You can still do KOS lists. You're just dealing with the collective population from multiple realms, not just your own, and you won't see them in Pandaria since those zones aren't included in CRZ (and that may simply be a rollout decision, where they implement the design first in the old world where it doesn't risk the new expansion experience by creating the possibility of a glitch or the like).


Nobody is forced into world PvP. If you're on a PvP server, you already ticked the box saying "I accept that ganking no-rules chaotic PvP is how this server works". The idea that you are guaranteed the opportunity for revenge was never part of that agreement. The idea that you will only face other people from your server was never part of that agreement. The idea that it won't be all that common was never part of that agreement. These are all assumptions that some people made, based on the current dynamic, but they were not part of the rule set and thus not something Blizzard had any obligation to preserve. Nor is complaining about change because it's different in any way constructive; the nature of the MMO game is "constant change". Yes, things changed. They do that, in MMOs. That doesn't mean it's "wrong", and most of the complaints fall short. Nor is there some massive popular outcry against CRZ. There's a few bad eggs, but most people I've spoken to have liked it. Even this thread is at worst half-and-half, and the forum community is pre-selected for people who like to complain about things (that's not a statement about our community specifically, but about forums in general).

[Kevyne-Shandris]

So the problem isn't so much that ganking occurs, but that people actually get ganked back now? That explains a lot, people always complain when they're suddenly not automatically at the top of the foodchain anymore. This makes me even more pleased about the complaining. Sweet, delicious tears.

It's like a neverending round.

So this is much more delicious...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Or8q02BQFLY