Hows Sub (PvE) on the PTR?

[Deleted]

I'd say heroic empress by looking at your progress and at your guild sitting you for this encounter

I can't see the connection here.

[jtstormrage]

My view on Sub is:

- It needs to have much better single target dps than the other specs to be viable (~10% better)(e.g. in FL and DS) in most or all fights in any raid instance. Because Sub damage suffers SO much from movement and boss position changes, target switches and has such horrible ramp up on a switch due to SV changes, it needs to do more dps to be viable in PvE.

- At the moment, it is not far enough ahead of other specs to be viable throughout any raid instance. It may be competetive on a Garajal-type fight but why play the complicated spec with no room for error when you can play the braindead spec that still does good damage (Assassination).

- Contrary to some people in this thread, I think Sub has very strong AOE. This is because (i) CT is buffed by Mastery (ii) CT applies Poisons (iii) CT, FOK and Poisons are all buffed by 30% Agi passive (iv) CT increases all damage taken by all of these abilities by 20% (incuding other CTs) and (v) Sub has very high energy regen due to Energetic Recovery and extra CPs due to HAT and so do a lot of FOKs and a lot of CTs.

[Deleted]

My view on Sub is:

- It needs to have much better single target dps than the other specs to be viable (~10% better)(e.g. in FL and DS) in most or all fights in any raid instance. Because Sub damage suffers SO much from movement and boss position changes, target switches and has such horrible ramp up on a switch due to SV changes, it needs to do more dps to be viable in PvE.

- At the moment, it is not far enough ahead of other specs to be viable throughout any raid instance. It may be competetive on a Garajal-type fight but why play the complicated spec with no room for error when you can play the braindead spec that still does good damage (Assassination).

- Contrary to some people in this thread, I think Sub has very strong AOE. This is because (i) CT is buffed by Mastery (ii) CT applies Poisons (iii) CT, FOK and Poisons are all buffed by 30% Agi passive (iv) CT increases all damage taken by all of these abilities by 20% (incuding other CTs) and (v) Sub has very high energy regen due to Energetic Recovery and extra CPs due to HAT and so do a lot of FOKs and a lot of CTs.

- It doesn't suffer that much. The only thing that really makes Sub less switch-friendly than the two others specs is FW.

- Wrong choice of word. Viable != optimal. Currently, Sub is more than viable on every boss, and could even come ahead of the two others on Mel'Jarak (but 'unfortunately' all our specs do very well on this one). And btw its rotation is so, SO overrated; cmon guys, we're not in T11 anymore, and it doesn't even come close to really painful rotations (e.g. T11 kitty). The hardest part of the rogue right now is Assa's AoE. If we're talking maximum dps output obviously.

- Sub's AoE is indeed quite strong and I believe there's a niche for it. Combat and Assa shine on 2-5 targets AoE and Assa takes the hand back on 10+ targets, but between those, I think Sub is ahead.

[D3athsting]

Word on the street is that sub has always been the pvp spec, when in cata i told my other rogue guildies i was going to try sub they said "u mad bro?", this prooves that there's so much bias against sub pve and only a strong rework (not a number tuning) could increase its appeal towards pve players, like jtstorm stated the common thought about subt is "why so much effort to have the same results as other easier specs?" also i think is important to remark that sub's complex rotation draws much more of your attention from fight mechanics and in the learning phase of a new encounter you can't afford that...

[Ryme]

As someone mentioned above, it's really not much of a challenging spec any more. To be completely fair, it wasn't too bad in Cata at decent haste levels.

[Mazius]

As someone mentioned above, it's really not much of a challenging spec any more. To be completely fair, it wasn't too bad in Cata at decent haste levels.

It's not about haste, it's about agility scaling.
During Sha HC you got permanent 15% haste buff (~6400 haste rating) and sub is not doing any better than assa or combat there.
It's simple as that: if you have 15000 agi sub spec gives you additional 4500. If you have 20000 agi - sub gives you 6000.
Not to mention that Dancing Steel and trinket procs scales better with sub spec aswell.

[Ryme]

I think you've misunderstood me, in that post I'm referring to ease of play, which does become better with more haste. Sub's scaling was never mentioned.

[Mazius]

I think you've misunderstood me, in that post I'm referring to ease of play, which does become better with more haste. Sub's scaling was never mentioned.

My bad then.

Word on the street is that sub has always been the pvp spec, when in cata i told my other rogue guildies i was going to try sub they said "u mad bro?", this prooves that there's so much bias against sub pve.

During DS HC progression (and boring haf-year farm after that) i played sub on 5 out of 8 bosses.
Ultraxion, warlord and MoD excluded (was combat on those 3).
SoD was pretty much impossible without stacking sub rogues before 1st nerf (and we had only 2 rogues back then)
So i don't really get what bias you talking about.

[Ahdehl]

From what you've seen so far, which spec overall do you think will fair the best?

If they gave us a boss that 99.99% resembled a target dummy, I might be Sub. Would depend on fight length.

[skitzy129]

Please, name me one T14 encounter where sub performs half as good compared to assa or combat.

I do better with Sub on all of them than the others.

Technically its the highest simming spec as well.

So for me it's winning in reality and on sims. Can't see a reason not to use it.

[Deleted]

2013-02-05 Datamined spellchanges: "Crimson Tempest bleed now does 240% of the initial damage over 12 sec, up from 30%."

Sub aoe got fixted. With the 3.45% buff to Subs overall damage, the T15 set bonus which seams to help sub the most and the way sub scales with higher ilvls, I see no real reason not to play the spec in 5.2 .I even predict sub replaceing assasination and the top singletarget damage spec for raiders who can manage its more complicated rotation.

Edit: I just tested the damage of Crimson Tempest on live servers and it already seems to be 240% of the initial damage over 12 sec.

[Wow]

2013-02-05 Datamined spellchanges: "Crimson Tempest bleed now does 240% of the initial damage over 12 sec, up from 30%."

Sub aoe got fixted. With the 3.45% buff to Subs overall damage, the T15 set bonus which seams to help sub the most and the way sub scales with higher ilvls, I see no real reason not to play the spec in 5.2 .I even predict sub replaceing assasination and the top singletarget damage spec for raiders who can manage its more complicated rotation.

Tooltip update from 5.0 hotfix we've has had this ct dmg all mop.

[Verain]

I do better with Sub on all of them than the others.

I doubt you outperform combat on Garalon or dogs as sub.

Technically its the highest simming spec as well.

In your gear? Or some other list?

So for me it's winning in reality and on sims. Can't see a reason not to use it.

I also use sub on some fights, mostly based on the ability to use dance effectively.

[D3athsting]

During DS HC progression (and boring haf-year farm after that) i played sub on 5 out of 8 bosses.
Ultraxion, warlord and MoD excluded (was combat on those 3).
SoD was pretty much impossible without stacking sub rogues before 1st nerf (and we had only 2 rogues back then)
So i don't really get what bias you talking about.

The fact you used sub with bosses on farm mode confirms what i said before about sub being not viable on progress encounters, the fact you didn't se sub on MoD, Ultraxion and Warmaster, confirms what i said about subt being a half spec...

[jtstormrage]

The fact you used sub with bosses on farm mode confirms what i said before about sub being not viable on progress encounters, the fact you didn't se sub on MoD, Ultraxion and Warmaster, confirms what i said about subt being a half spec...

I have never heard such utter rubbish.

Sub was perfectly viable on progression on a number of fights in FL and DS. I played Sub on 5/8 fights in DS, including MOD progression because it was so much burstier than Combat on the little exploding tentacle things. And I beat the Combat Rogues on every single fight, including Zonozz and Hagara when they were cleaving, and MOD when they were meter padding by cleaving the bloods. I also used to beat the Combat Rogues on Rag hc.

The only fights where Sub was not clearly the best spec in DS were Ultraxion because of the positional requirements (and even then only by a bit if you had the right sub spec) Warlord and Yorsashj because of the cleave uptime. However, if you had been able to Backstab and Ambush Ultraxion, it would have been the clear top dps Rogue spec on that.

Most Rogues played Combat because they were f$%^ing lazy and wanted to cleave cleave cleave and there was cleave on every fight except Morchok and Sub, and Combat had no aoe so the same lazy Rogues used to even play Combat on Hagara and Yorsashj.

HOWEVER, as I posted above, Sub was only so strong because single target it was a clear 10% better than Combat (I had no respect whatsoever for Rogues who played Combat on Morchok) and had much better burst. This made up for the lack of cleave and the more unforgiving rotation (Combat was complete skillless spam at those haste levels). At the moment, Sub is not the highest single target dps spec and so very few Rogues will play it because the risks of your dps dropping off are not compensated by higher damage compared to the other specs.

[Hayturr]

I'd rather play a spec that requires some thought rather than braindead Mutilate or Combat.
I miss DS Sub rogue complexity and trade-off. If you fuck up your DPS sucks, if you perfect it nobody's beating you.

[Deleted]

I do better with Sub on all of them than the others.

Technically its the highest simming spec as well.

So for me it's winning in reality and on sims. Can't see a reason not to use it.

Well this is a different thing, it just means than you can't play Combat or assa as good as you play sub.

[Ahdehl]

Sub was perfectly viable on progression on a number of fights in FL and DS. I played Sub on 5/8 fights in DS, including MOD progression because it was so much burstier than Combat on the little exploding tentacle things. And I beat the Combat Rogues on every single fight, including Zonozz and Hagara when they were cleaving, and MOD when they were meter padding by cleaving the bloods. I also used to beat the Combat Rogues on Rag hc.

TLDR - You played with terrible rogues who didn't know how to maximize cleave/extra dps. Also, Hagara had no cleave.

[Kezuma]

so this post started from how sub performs in t15 and u guys argue how sub was in FL / DS ?! so any1 that is on PTR and tested sub can give some insight without cry how sub used to be cuz honestly we all can agree sub will not be as good as it was in DS anytime soon

[Deleted]

I'd rather play a spec that requires some thought rather than braindead Mutilate or Combat.
I miss DS Sub rogue complexity and trade-off. If you fuck up your DPS sucks, if you perfect it nobody's beating you.

I don't think Sub would ever out-dps'd combat on anything apart from Morchok, Hagara or Spine, so even if you did everything correctly as sub, you'd still have your ass handed to you by combat on 5 fights out of 8. And cleave padding isn't really padding when the target has to die, I bet the multi-dotting classes would love to explain that.

DS sub was indeed harder to play than combat and assa, but would only really be needed on Spine. Sure, a point could be made that it could pull higher numbers than comb/assa on morchok and hagara, but then again those fights were faceroll, so there was no reason, from a raid group dps standpoint, to roll with Sub MS.

Moreover, a highly punishing spec is not what you'd want to choose as the MS, if you're a raider that is. Dependability > Potential, which is the same principle as a dead dps doing 0 damage applied in a different circumstance.

Due to encounter mechanics and raid tactic, or just human nature, no rotation will ever go perfect. So why try a spec that will cost you far more dps than another spec, at the slightest mistake, while being less versatile as well (horrendous positional requirements, no cleave or aoe to speak of, horrible target swap, etc.).

Is it required for a specific encounter? Sure, go ahead then. You're basically bored and it's either play this or don't play at all? Okay, i guess it makes sense, although a point could be raised about the ethics of enforcing a less dependable spec on your raid group. Is it just for being labeled "pro" for using that really hard spec? Uhm no, can't agree with that.

---------- Post added 2013-02-06 at 11:31 AM ----------

so this post started from how sub performs in t15 and u guys argue how sub was in FL / DS ?! so any1 that is on PTR and tested sub can give some insight without cry how sub used to be cuz honestly we all can agree sub will not be as good as it was in DS anytime soon

You're right, apologies for my previous rant.

I've tried running sub on the PTR but I have to admit, I didn't have the patience to try it in a raid environment. Having to reconfigure my addons and UI was a turn-off and just did a few quests with the new factions. I've tried Mark for Death, which is amazing for the daily grind.

I suspect Mark for Death would help for Sub AOE as well, where there isn't a need to dps adds evenly. Pop Mark on a dying add, CT, Mark gets refreshed a few secs later with the add dying, pop mark again on the next lowest health add, CT again, etc. Overlapping CT that frequently isn't probably the best of ideas, but would allow but good snap aoe.