Blood / High Elves becoming a neutral race

[Talen]

The Darkspear Trolls maintain a racial capital in the Echo Isles, a Quarter in Orgrimmar, settlements in Zangarmarsh in Outland, villages in Desolace and Durotar and a major presence in Ashenvale Forest and in Stranglethorn Vale. By contrast the High Elves are a smattering in Outland, the occasional NPC in Stormwind and the Silver Covenant in Dalaran.

In game evidence suggests a much larger and viable Darkspear Troll population compared to the High Elves.

In game evidence contradicts the population size available to the Dark spear....Gnomes....Tauren.....Forsaken...goblins.

Why not High Elves as well? If Blizzard decide to offer High Elves to the Alliance, your argument covering size is meaningless. There are High Elves in Storm wind, the Hinterlands, Terrokar, Dalaran - that's enough to work from.

EJL

[Stormdash]

Ignore Northem's fanon.

Here's the canon, mythological reality of the thing -- the NPCs called "high elves" in the game are no more a manifestly different race than the Sin'dorei than Vanessa Van Cleef is from Varian Wrynn, for the same reason, political differences. And the Sin'dorei that were exposed enough to fel energy to take the green glint in their eye are no more a manifestly different race than those Thalassians who didn't than would a pack a day smoker be from a lifelong non-smoker. Pollution, sure, but that's as far as it goes.

The actual race itself, its history, institutions, and culture, is the Sin'dorei. They took that name -- all of them -- when their legitimate ruler Kael'thas decreed it in the wake of Arthas' sacking of Quel'thalas. The name had nothing to do with demonic taints or fel energy and preceded Kael'thas losing his mind by quite some time. The elves that call themselves "high elves" basically rejected the "Sin'dorei" name and what it stands for as a way to protest Kael'thas, which is also why they basically self-deported.

That is all the difference there is between a "blood elf" and a "high elf".

So Blizzard isn't going to be concocting some whole new starting area for the expatriates of existing race and making them playable any time soon. Ever, in fact. No more so than they are going to create a Wastewander Bandit starting area for Horde humans. Nor is there going to be a lore event in which the relatively small number of "high elves" are going to convince the other Alliance races to help them overthrow the uninterrupted and legitimate government of Silvermoon because they didn't like the direction it took.

If you want playable Thalassian elves for Alliance, the neutral race option is the only thing that has even the most remote possibility of ever happening, either in lore or for reason of the much lower development cost it would require. Beyond that, just suck it up and RP your Horde elves.

Also, Northem -- is Valeera Sanguinar just a demon-tainted lower form of life in your estimation of elven sub-races?

[Deleted]

I think Blizzard can only lose by introducing High Elves.

Scenario 1: High Elves get introduced, Horde feels like it "loses" one race to the Alliance, demands a new race for itself.
Scenario 2: High Elves get introduced, Horde gets a new race, Alliance complains it gets the old one, while the Horde gets a new race.
Scenario 3: High Elves get introduced, both sides get a new race in addition to the now neutral Elves, Horde complains it lost one and gained only one race in comparison to two new Alliance races.

[Peacemoon]

Alliance already have Elves... Night Elves. What is left of the High Elves is a very small npc faction, otherwise most of the the Elves joined the Horde when the Alliance betrayed them.

[Northem]

[Bunch of pro-Horde slanders completely dispensable]
Also, Northem -- is Valeera Sanguinar just a demon-tainted lower form of life in your estimation of elven sub-races?

Of course, she, as a Blood Elf that is, is corrupted, and the proof is that she herself is ashamed of what she is. In fact, it attempted to "cure" her, but the vile magic stays forever...

I think Blizzard can only lose by introducing High Elves.

Then finally they would show what I already knew long ago: Blizzard is stupid.

Alliance already have Elves... Night Elves. What is left of the High Elves is a very small npc faction, otherwise most of the the Elves joined the Horde when the Alliance betrayed them.

The Night Elves be damned! They practically have no link with the Alliance!

And by the way, were the blood elves who betrayed the Alliance and themselves! not the other way, and the authentic High Elves still remain faithful to the Alliance...

[Deleted]

Elves are scum, doesn't matter if shiny silver eyes, green or blue, scum all together.

That being said, I don't give a fuck if they pop up as a new alliance race, but the fandom by some of the posters here is scary.

And by the way, never call the creators of something out on treating it wrong, they are certainly more right on the subject then everyone else.

[Deleted]

I will correct yourself: "The Horde got the demonic elves", stay with your gay elves!

In the Alliance we already have the authentic and pure High Elves, they only need become a playable race and receive their due importance. And that, is a historical obligation, in the same way that the ogres belong to the Horde and should be playable too.

Ogres for the Horde and High Elves for the Alliance! now!

For Lordaeron! Glory to the Quel'dorei! Long live Alleria!

Northem I understand and respect your desire for helves becoming playable, but putting all that fanatic (or whatever the word is) praising in your comments is really unnecessary.
On topic though, not really a fan of elves myself. I think we already have enough of them.

[shinikage]

is more likely to see the high elves become a playable race for the alliance instead

[Elegiac]

Northem I understand and respect your desire for helves becoming playable, but putting all that fanatic (or whatever the word is) praising in your comments is really unnecessary.
On topic though, not really a fan of elves myself. I think we already have enough of them.

Then don't roll one.

[Obelisk Kai]

Then don't roll one.

He likely won't have the option as the chances of them being added are so low.

[Stormdash]

See, I don't really consider Northem as really wanting playable high elves as they are represented in game and in lore, as a political dissident/defector faction of Sin'dorei who bailed out before they were exposed to enough fel magic for their eyes to turn green, which is ultimately the only factual (i.e. not people just making stuff up) physical distinguishing feature from their former countrymen. He -- without being at all sarcastic on my part -- wants Blizzard to give him a magic land of unicorns.

To wit; if Blizzard actually produced a playable Alliance option for Thalassian elves -- using the relatively low-cost template already in place, the neutral Pandaren, and revising Eversong/Ghostlands questing (already planned) to justify Quel'thalas as a neutral country in game -- he would throw an absolute fit.

[Talen]

I think Blizzard can only lose by introducing High Elves.

Scenario 1: High Elves get introduced, Horde feels like it "loses" one race to the Alliance, demands a new race for itself.
Scenario 2: High Elves get introduced, Horde gets a new race, Alliance complains it gets the old one, while the Horde gets a new race.
Scenario 3: High Elves get introduced, both sides get a new race in addition to the now neutral Elves, Horde complains it lost one and gained only one race in comparison to two new Alliance races.

Scenario 4: High Elves get introduced an Horde get an existing Alliance race in return.

This would actually be a pretty cheap way to add something to each faction, akin to the Shaman/Paladin swap in TBC. The big problem here would be deciding which race to to give the Horde; lorewise, the easiest would be a faction of Highborne Night Elves who seek out their kin in Silvermoon instead of Darnassus. Every other Alliance race would need to be shoehorned into the Horde in some fashion.

Alliance already have Elves... Night Elves. What is left of the High Elves is a very small npc faction, otherwise most of the the Elves joined the Horde when the Alliance betrayed them.

The Alliance never betrayed the Blood Elves. The absolute worst they did was have a Night Elf scouting party set up camp in their territory.

EJL

[Linkedblade]

The Alliance never betrayed the Blood Elves. The absolute worst they did was have a Night Elf scouting party set up camp in their territory.

• They allow the Orcs to invade Quel'Thalas during the second war.
• Crown Prince goes mad and ransacks Silvermoon
• Leader of alliance forces uses them as a meat shield against the scourge.
• Never sent reinforcements to help the elves hold the front line. Not too mention that's terrible because elves are mages/rangers.
• The High Elves are aided on the front by Lady Vashj. General DickheadGrand Marshal Garithos decides that is conspiring with the enemy and imprisons all the elves in the Violet Hold.
• Night Elves set up camps in High Elf territory (act of war).
• Dwarf spy (espionage).
• Dont forget the mutual hate toward Night Elves for their history. The draenei do not trust the High/Blood Elves.(or at least didn't, not sure after the Shattered sun Offensive was largely Blood elf/Draenei).

[Combatbutler]

[*]They allow the Orcs to invade Quel'Thalas during the second war.

It couldn't be helped, the Alliance tried to stop them.

[*]Crown Prince goes mad and ransacks Silvermoon

Arthas destroyed his own kingdom prior, you can't fault the Alliance for that.

[*]Leader of alliance forces uses them as a meat shield against the scourge.

Garithos was indeed a racist.

[*]Never sent reinforcements to help the elves hold the front line. Not too mention that's terrible because elves are mages/rangers

.
Still Garithos

[*]The High Elves are aided on the front by Lady Vashj. General dickhead decides that is conspiring with the enemy and imprisons all the elves in the Violet Hold.

Still Garithos and they were already blood elves at that point.

[*]Night Elves set up camps in High Elf territory (act of war).

The night elves set up camp, spy and attacked anyone who came too close true

[*]Dwarf spy (espionage).

Also true


Humans and elves turned their backs on each other on several occasions, they owe nothing to each other. Their bond has always been one of convenience and not of deep trust and friendship with a few exceptions, as you can see today.

---------- Post added 2013-03-22 at 04:07 PM ----------

The Alliance never betrayed the Blood Elves. The absolute worst they did was have a Night Elf scouting party set up camp in their territory.

EJL

Garithos, the Kirin Tor(not the recent purge), a dwarven ambassador and Night elven expedition force come to mind.

[Talen]

They allow the Orcs to invade Quel'Thalas during the second war.

"Allow"? Seriously? The HElves weren't even part of the Alliance at that stage and the Alliance still sent help ocne they realised what was going on

Crown Prince goes mad and ransacks Silvermoon

Which is not a betrayal by the Alliance.

Leader of alliance forces uses them as a meat shield against the scourge.

And again, a member of the Alliance doing something does not make it an act of the Alliance.

Never sent reinforcements to help the elves hold the front line. Not too mention that's terrible because elves are mages/rangers.

Never mind the huge armies they were pouring into the plaguelands and into other conflicts. The Alliance forces didn't have enough troops left over to maintain the peace in their own nations. And if you are talking about the actual WC3 campaign...Garithos never sent them reinforcements because he already had too few troops to work with. First - this is still Garithos and second, given the situation at the time, it is far from inconceivable that Garithos actions were not actually correct. Throw his main force at the enemy and use a small holding force to delay and so prevent the two enemy forces joining up. He didn't like the BElfs...but was his hatred so strong that he would commit suicide by arranging for his rearguard to be killed off?

The High Elves are aided on the front by Lady Vashj. General DickheadGrand Marshal Garithos decides that is conspiring with the enemy and imprisons all the elves in the Violet Hold.

Raising the same point twice? Never mind that Garithos is actually correct.

Night Elves set up camps in High Elf territory (act of war).

A scouting mission. Yes they shouldn't have done it...it also was not a betrayal.

Dwarf spy (espionage).

Unproven. That Dwarf was hardly the one and only person in the entirety of Silvermoon who wrote Dwarvish. As for espionage - you have the Alliance supposedly sabotaging a damaged, overworked, undermaintained installation it had no reason to destroy and whose manager had already brought into question the wisdom of running it above its maximum capacity because of the probability it would blow up and an accusation by a low ranking officer that a note he could barely recognise as Dwarven let alone read indicated a huge conspiracy on the behalf of the Alliance....instead of his incompetence causng the installation to blow up, it was all a plot.


Where is the betrayal? At this point, you can argue the BElfs might believe there was betrayal, but the flaws in the story here are numerous.

Dont forget the mutual hate toward Night Elves for their history.

Mutual hate? Malfurion and company got along quite well with Kael'thas.

The draenei do not trust the High/Blood Elves.(or at least didn't, not sure after the Shattered sun Offensive was largely Blood elf/Draenei).

You mean, they should trust the people who tried to finish the job the Orcs started? Again, where is the llaicne betrayal?

Garithos, the Kirin Tor(not the recent purge), a dwarven ambassador and Night elven expedition force come to mind.

Garithios was Garithos.
The purge was instigated by a Sunreaver/Belf betrayal.
The latter two are not a betrayal, albeit one louded by the ham fisted way Blizzard shoehorned the story into place.


EJL

[Combatbutler]

The purge was instigated by a Sunreaver/Belf betrayal.

I meant the Kirin Tor abandoning the blood elves to Garithos justice, which is why I said not the recent purge, they kinda deserved that one.

The latter two are not a betrayal, albeit one louded by the ham fisted way Blizzard shoehorned the story into place.

It was not a direct betrayal, but it shattered any basis for trust.

[Stormdash]

Espionage is in and of itself a tacitly aggressive act. That's why even in peace time it's done secretly, even among allies. The Night Elves had an armed scout almost at the very gates of Silvermoon, and three independent bases of operations set up in the Ghostlands.

I don't consider the Alliance to have "betrayed" the Sin'dorei in these aggressive acts in the BE 1-20 questing, but it certainly serves as plot justification for why the Blood Elves would be turning their attention to the Horde as a possible ally. Already beset by the Scourge remnants and the Amani, suddenly the races of the Alliance are poking around provocatively while they are at their weakest and most vulnerable... not with a single offer of aid, but much more like carrion birds waiting to swoop in. Gotta try to see it from the protagonist race's perspective whilst in their starting zone.

As for Dalaran... I think it's Warcraft's "night or broken wards", a display of paranoid totalitarian overreach, the end of any sort of thing that players in the western world would recognize as justice and due process and general fair play -- rounding up every man, woman, and child on nothing more than suspicion, summarily banishing or executing all of them without any individual proof of fault or wrongdoing. I haven't watched a vid or leveled up Alliance to 90 to run it on their side, but I like to think that that moral failure was less Jaina herself and more her nutso attack dog Vereesa egging on Jaina's worst impulses to advance Vereesa's long standing personal agenda.

Now the thing about Arthas... Arthas' himself, that's not the Alliance that rolled through Quel'thalas, but in rereading Rise of the Lich King, which is a very entertaining book, I thought about everything that is in motion starting with Kel'thuzad's first mention and realize... man, did Dalaran and Lordaeron (aka... Alliance) sure eff up everything in the world royally, or what? Could they have been less responsive and less on the ball when it came to the emerging threat of the plague, and the idea that they just let Kel'thuzad swan off without a word after they catch him neck deep in necromancy? Antonidas and Terenas are to the Third War and Arthas' downfall what the short-sighted Jedi Council was to the rise of Palpatine.

[LilSaihah]

I'd be okay with it. Can Draenei go neutral, too? /waggle must become an opportunity for everyone, factions be damned.

I could see them both becoming neutral, though. Draenei with their "who cares what faction we are, so long as the Legion gets wrecked" and Elves with their "who cares what faction we are, so long as we're not getting stabbed in the back constantly".

[ijffdrie]

Honestly, I rather like the idea. As for the alliance counterpart going neutral, what about humans? Alterac has historic ties to the horde and most of its remaining nobles are corrupted bastards. I can certainly imagine them joining the horde to gain immortality through the forsaken (would be a rather interesting "symbiotic" relationship). They'd need a minor visual thing to make them distinct from alliance humans though (like the blue elves for the high elves). Maybe a facial tattoo or something?

Espionage is in and of itself a tacitly aggressive act. That's why even in peace time it's done secretly, even among allies. The Night Elves had an armed scout almost at the very gates of Silvermoon, and three independent bases of operations set up in the Ghostlands.

I don't consider the Alliance to have "betrayed" the Sin'dorei in these aggressive acts in the BE 1-20 questing, but it certainly serves as plot justification for why the Blood Elves would be turning their attention to the Horde as a possible ally. Already beset by the Scourge remnants and the Amani, suddenly the races of the Alliance are poking around provocatively while they are at their weakest and most vulnerable... not with a single offer of aid, but much more like carrion birds waiting to swoop in. Gotta try to see it from the protagonist race's perspective whilst in their starting zone.

It wasn't just spying. They also sabotaged one of the last few working arcane sanctuaries. Considering the blood elves have a physical dependency on the magic those things collect, I'd certainly consider that an act of aggression.

[Zaelsino]

First - this is still Garithos and second, given the situation at the time, it is far from inconceivable that Garithos actions were not actually correct. Throw his main force at the enemy and use a small holding force to delay and so prevent the two enemy forces joining up. He didn't like the BElfs...but was his hatred so strong that he would commit suicide by arranging for his rearguard to be killed off?

Even Blizzard came out and stated that, yes, what he was doing was sending them off on impossible, and I quote, "suicide" missions (in case this wasn't obvious enough playing the game) with the aim of, and again I quote, "ridding himself" of the elves. It doesn't really get much plainer than that.

Raising the same point twice? Never mind that Garithos is actually correct.

Garithos was correct because he made himself correct. He sentenced Kael to death either way, his preferred method of execution just left him with cleaner hands.

The guy was an upjumped idiot and second only to his killer in terms of hypocrisy, only his brand of it was detrimental to a hell of a lot more than just his ethics.

The latter two are not a betrayal, albeit one louded by the ham fisted way Blizzard shoehorned the story into place.

Yeah, they could've handled that a lot better. To be fair though, they invoked the blood elves' general inoffensiveness to both factions in 5.1.