Glyph of Unleashed Lightning Change

[AlexMuts]

Of course its not a proper comparison. Just saying, that a DR buff is good, but not enough. Overall, shamans need a closer look.

And, just saying, the DK has a proc chance to crit a strong skill (obliterate), and enhance sham need 2 crit skills to hit about the same dmg. On my RBGs, DK are always top DPS, then there's an abysm, then its my dps. I just think enhance sham need a buff on damage. Its ok, but not THAT good as other classes are doing.

[Senarx]

Unless it's a DW frost dk theyre going to do more damage than you when they crit because they're wielding a 2hander. also it was a fine comparison, both stormstrike and lavalash require melee range, just like obliterate.

[akro]

Good. I look forward to the damage reduction, though I'm not sure it'll be enough to keep enh sham from being the softest class in the game by far.

Ya but 10% will still help a little.

[Deleted]

Unless it's a DW frost dk theyre going to do more damage than you when they crit because they're wielding a 2hander. also it was a fine comparison, both stormstrike and lavalash require melee range, just like obliterate.

The comparison was not fine. You cannot compare two classes damage like that. First of all: when it's regarding PvP, even if he is right that Enhance damage is lower than DK, there is alot more Enhance can do that a DK cannot. So we are probably not supposed to do the same damage, but our other abilities should make up for it (I'm not saying we are just as good as a DK, or that DK's are better than us, I'm just making it clear why that comparison is useless for constructive debating). And since he implied that Enhancement Shamans lacked either damage or mitigation (ie wanted further buffs) to hit a DK as hard as a DK hit us, and thus needed a buff, he hasn't understood how balance in PvP works

So not only did he not understand that PvP balance isn't all about damage, he also failed to compare the damage to each other properly. You cannot take out a few spells and then solely look at how hard they hit, without taking alot of other stuff into account: that could eg. with good reason be the rest of the spells that deal damage.

[AlexMuts]

Ya but 10% will still help a little.

Yeah, but why a glyph? So far I think this should be a baseline.

As enhance, we alredy have 2 mandatory glyph, shamanistic to clear magic and +% on heal with maelstrom. Currently, my 3rd is hex, and of course I will change it to 10% DR.

In comparison with other hibrids classes, moonkings alredy have DR as baseline, pallys have +100% on heal as a baseline. Why shaman need to be glyphed in order to get the same effects?

[Deleted]

Ya but 10% will still help a little.

Except for AMS and the DK healing talent tier, we will with this buff have the same dmg mitigation as DKs in blood presence (without calculating armor). Then added to that we have SR, grounding and shear. Imo enhance has better survivalbility than DKs with that buff.

[kosajk]

No offense, but Elemental is rather complicated and punishing when being trained hard. Now since you claim that the spec is basically so broken that it makes you die in a few globals, I'd also like to claim that your PvP experience haven't been above 1800, that you have very, very little idea of how to do basic arena, you don't know how to counter the opposite class and that you probably haven't heard or learned much about CC DR's.

This goes for many comments on this forum, and it's frustrating to see how alot of you don't realize that the spec's potential isn't revealed at lower skill levels. If you want to claim that your spec doesn't allow you to do anything else than step into the arena and get nuked in a few globals, show us a video of how it happened. I'm confident that any person making a comment similar to this one, probably hasn't done 10% of the things he is "supposed" to do, and that good players can point out a thousand things he could have done different.

first off all im plaing enh i played arena up to ~2100 rat in season 6 or 7 if you need to know, it can be easly checked if you click on my signature and see my achivments much beter way than making stupid asumptions without reason

there are 4 things that make you good or bad in pvp:
1. burst - everyone have it good curently so its not an issue
2. survivability - we can argue is 40%/6sec + 30%/15 sec dmg reduction is beter from dispersion, deterance, evasion, Iceblock, or any oh shit buton that only shamans and druids are lacking but i dont think you will find any arguments to prove your point, and we should not forget about some sort off imunities like druids cant be polimorphed or mages have 15 sec cd blink which make them really almost unstunable
3. mobility, every mele have some sort of low cd gap closer while enh have frozen power it can be werry usefull defensivly but with DR its rather bad offensivly in longer fights i could live with that tho
4. CC - end here is another drama in shaman case cose we have exacly 2 CC abilities,
- hex have it strong sides ( it can be used to finish off healer for instance) but it have long CD, enemy can move in it, which can be anoing and its using our MSW stacks that are needed for selfhealing and DPS alredy
-CT with incoming buff (if it will go on live) it will be not one shoted anymore but still really easy to outrange, and pretty hard to use if you compare that to other CC capabilities, for instance monk silence/disarm that can fallow you and you cant do nothing to counter it is something that literally blow my mind how its posible that it came to live or priest have that fearing shit just place it between yourself and enemy and let it do its job, easy to use and efficient

if you want to prove something try going to arena and make movie of that im pretty sure it will be much fun for both of us cose if you are saing that enh have comeptitve CC and survivability im pretty sure you havent got to much in PvP in this season ofc there are some cases when you can get caried by some stronger class but its not exactly making things ok

dont get me wrong i like the change its definitely step in the right direction but its really small step imo

[Deleted]

Except for AMS and the DK healing talent tier, we will with this buff have the same dmg mitigation as DKs in blood presence (without calculating armor). Then added to that we have SR, grounding and shear. Imo enhance has better survivalbility than DKs with that buff.

I'm not disagreeing with you per se but you can't add our anti caster arsenal as giving us more survivability than DK's when you leave out their anti caster tools. In addition to what you mentioned DK's have a melee interrupt, strangulate and Death Grip which both closes the gap and interrupts spell casts, IBF and possibly ghoul stun as well.

[AlexMuts]

I think we should compare with hibrids that uses mana, such as pally and druids.

For example, moonking alredy have 10% damage reduction as baseline and pally have plus 100% on flash heal. Why does shaman need to glyph in order to get the same effects?

[Deleted]

first off all im plaing enh i played arena up to ~2100 rat in season 6 or 7 if you need to know, it can be easly checked if you click on my signature and see my achivments much beter way than making stupid asumptions without reason

there are 4 things that make you good or bad in pvp:
1. burst - everyone have it good curently so its not an issue
2. survivability - we can argue is 40%/6sec + 30%/15 sec dmg reduction is beter from dispersion, deterance, evasion, Iceblock, or any oh shit buton that only shamans and druids are lacking but i dont think you will find any arguments to prove your point, and we should not forget about some sort off imunities like druids cant be polimorphed or mages have 15 sec cd blink which make them really almost unstunable
3. mobility, every mele have some sort of low cd gap closer while enh have frozen power it can be werry usefull defensivly but with DR its rather bad offensivly in longer fights i could live with that tho
4. CC - end here is another drama in shaman case cose we have exacly 2 CC abilities,
- hex have it strong sides ( it can be used to finish off healer for instance) but it have long CD, enemy can move in it, which can be anoing and its using our MSW stacks that are needed for selfhealing and DPS alredy
-CT with incoming buff (if it will go on live) it will be not one shoted anymore but still really easy to outrange, and pretty hard to use if you compare that to other CC capabilities, for instance monk silence/disarm that can fallow you and you cant do nothing to counter it is something that literally blow my mind how its posible that it came to live or priest have that fearing shit just place it between yourself and enemy and let it do its job, easy to use and efficient

if you want to prove something try going to arena and make movie of that im pretty sure it will be much fun for both of us cose if you are saing that enh have comeptitve CC and survivability im pretty sure you havent got to much in PvP in this season ofc there are some cases when you can get caried by some stronger class but its not exactly making things ok

Read my post and understand it please.
I was talking about low-skilled players that complain about the class, without knowing enough about the game to draw conclusions such as whether we need buffs or nerfs. You are talking about Enhancement being underpowered. (Funny thing is that I was talking about Elemental as a starting point lol)

[Deleted]

I think we should compare with hibrids that uses mana, such as pally and druids.

For example, moonking alredy have 10% damage reduction as baseline and pally have plus 100% on flash heal. Why does shaman need to glyph in order to get the same effects?

Why do boomkins need to glyph to be able to heal without switching forms? Shamans and paladins don't need to switch forms to heal, why should boomkins? Or better yet, since boomkins need to be in form to get their 10% DR, why do boomkins need to glyph to be able to heal themselves while maintaining their DR when others don't?

It works both ways.

[Deleted]

I'm not disagreeing with you per se but you can't add our anti caster arsenal as giving us more survivability than DK's when you leave out their anti caster tools. In addition to what you mentioned DK's have a melee interrupt, strangulate and Death Grip which both closes the gap and interrupts spell casts, IBF and possibly ghoul stun as well.

I actually had two seperated points, I didn't make that clear enough.


Anyway, DKs defensives are pretty strong when used, but they are really weak without them. Enhancement is more steady. If you spec for reduced Totem CD when destroyed, there isn't alot of time we are without either shear, grounding or it's even possible to purge buffs like instant pyro.

[Endus]

No serious raidleader is going to let his Shamans get into heroic progression without that 10% DR glyph. There is no other glyph that has a similar, or stronger, benefit and your healers will demand it.
Mandatory is a label that indicates a glyph that outperforms any other potential replacement glyph. Name me 1 glyph that would be better than this one, and don't come at me with 1 niche situation in ToT HC.

This is you misusing the term "mandatory", and misinterpreting my post.

I was not saying it is not a good glyph, or even that it's not a strong contender for one of your three glyph slots. I was saying that you can choose to use something else, if situational issues arise. Ergo it's not "mandatory". The old duration-increasing Glyph of Flame Shock, on the other hand, you did always, always want in PvE. That's why it was considered "mandatory".

You're just talking about the semantics of mandatory now.

If what we're discussing is the meaning of a word, then "semantics" is explicitly what we're discussing. Of course that's what I'm talking about. "Semantics" isn't a bad word, and I was clear that I wasn't arguing that the glyph was "bad", or even "worse than people think".

endus is this glyph even worth it if you don't pvp as ele or enhance? if not what glyph would you recommend of pve elemental?

It's definitely worthwhile. If you don't have any other pressing need for a glyph, I'd stick this one in.

[jadenprince]

Guys we will get movement, it says it right there

Glyph of Unleashed Lightning was replaced with Glyph of Lightning Shield - Your Lightning Shield also reduces all damage you take by 10%. "Old Unleashed Lightning glyph benefit is baked in for Elemental. Cast time penalty just goes away. (Anything can change before 5.3 launch.)"

The old unleashed lightning glyph is baked in for elemental.

[Darksoldierr]

I actually had two seperated points, I didn't make that clear enough.


Anyway, DKs defensives are pretty strong when used, but they are really weak without them. Enhancement is more steady. If you spec for reduced Totem CD when destroyed, there isn't alot of time we are without either shear, grounding or it's even possible to purge buffs like instant pyro.

Unless silenced, gg

[Deleted]

Unless silenced, gg

Well same goes for DK's

[zorg]

@Zorg

You mean haste will be further devalued, because there is no longer the cast time increase from the former version of the glyph?

That sounds like a possible consequence, yep.

Yes i was trying to steer the conversation away from the QQ and crap towards something more interesting but seems that is wishful thinking

[Omanley]

Then they would probably need to reduce interrupt CD's to compensate. Casters being able to dps freely while moving is a big issue in both PvE and PvP. In PvP in means they suffer very little when having to run away. In PvE it's the same deal which is also one of the biggest reasons why the past 2 expansions, casters have been heavily favored over melee.

Yes, I agree. Mobile casting is a very complexe topic. Not only does it determine how popular casters will be in pve, as you pointed out, it also goes a long way in pvp. Personally, I hate the idea of strong, mobile ranged damage. A caster is supposed to gap create and secure his range to not get hurt, or interrupted. Being able to squeeze damage out in every situation with hardly limitation makes a ranged just like a melee with ranged attacks (essentially like hunters, which I considered broken in this regard ever since they removed dead zone and introduced charged shots and auto shot on the move).
A skill to learn as a caster should be to know when to stop moving to do damage, and when the situation calls more for survival.
Same as a melee who has to run out of range to then reengage, rather than remain in the voidzone and die. Overly mobile ranged dps defeats the whole purpose of ranged/caster vs melee, in being vulnerable when chased around or captured by a melee.

Commenting from a PvE Enh perspective I suspect this would soothe anyone miffed about the whole Enh hardcasting style (not that I personally mind hardcasting since it is usually near instant anyway)...this would make it similar to Warrior Slam when used with less than full MW. Can't comment from any other perspective than Enh.

If the damage reduc glyph goes through I see many hard choices in both PvE and PvP when it comes to Major Glyphs (I already feel like I make some hard choices) and I think that is in keeping with the design goal for Majors. Interesting developments.

What I think of more from an enh POV is that this will allow for a filler whenever there is movement (which is pretty awesome). Instead of having just shocks and UE, we can fill the gaps inbetween now with lb.

Looking at your point concerning hard casting as enh during melee combat: I dont think it will sooth people complaining about it (me included), as it is only noticable during moment in which you both need to hardcast AND move, which I assume aren't that frequent. The majority will likely still consist of dpsing while standing still. Plus, in either case it still means an interruption of auto hit, plus the un-enhancy feature of hard casting.
I guess this contradicts itself with what I typed above (the buff acting as an filler when on range still being good) . I'd still rather want a proper gap closer for reengaging rather than this, but it's something to make use of now and just wanted to point towards it.

[Keiyra]

First off, just want to say congrats to all the shaman out there on the change.

But..what i don't get is why is blizzard constantly contradicting it self:

Ghostcrawler: Movement should be terrible for a ranged spec. Full stop. All of the various mechanics we put in from Spiritwalker’s Grace to Aspect of the Fox are to make moving less terrible, but it should still be pretty terrible. (And if you think there are specs not penalized enough by moving, please let us know, though probably not in this thread. We felt that ranged movement got a bid out of control in Cataclysm so we’ve definitely made an attempt to scale it back.)

That was several months ago, pre 5.1 when hunters got all their shots castable on the move.
So blizz wants movement to be terrible, but its ok to let locks, then hunters, and now Ele shaman (to a lesser extent granted), not be hampered by movement very much at all? Can blizz please make up its mind!

I just think there there should be a little more consistency between ranged specs. Some can do 100% of their rotation while running, while others are majorly borked if they have to move barely at all. I'm not saying everyone should be equally good or bad at movement, but its like blizz is being Bi-polar with its design goals.

Again, congrats shammies, I will enjoy the change on my alt as im sure our Ele will, but man blizz is giving me whiplash on this issue.

[Deleted]

First off, just want to say congrats to all the shaman out there on the change.

But..what i don't get is why is blizzard constantly contradicting it self:


That was several months ago, pre 5.1 when hunters got all their shots castable on the move.
So blizz wants movement to be terrible, but its ok to let locks, then hunters, and now Ele shaman (to a lesser extent granted), not be hampered by movement very much at all? Can blizz please make up its mind!

I just think there their should be a little more consistency between ranged specs. Some can do 100% of their rotation while running, while others are majorly borked if they have to move barely at all. I'm not saying everyone should be equally good or bad at movement, but its like blizz is being Bi-polar with its design goals.

Again, congrats shammies, I will enjoy the change on my alt as im sure our Ele will, but man blizz is giving me whiplash.

The problem is that they don't want to make such a large change mid expansion and it's probably easier for them to balance if they just make movement effects baseline, at least for the remainder of the expansion. My bets are that they are just making effects like these baseline till the end of the expansion then will remove them all in the 6.0.1 overhaul. That's just what I'm thinking though.