How would you like to handle the "gap" between LFR and Normal raiding?

[Ninotchka]

I am 100% with you mate. I don't get why some people on this forum find it so hard to understand and accept that not everyone is the same.

I think a bit more empathy from some folks would go a long way around here.

I suspect that there's ego involved, that always makes people stop listening.

This is a self-selecting board of people who are not the target audience for the changes Blizz is going to make. If you can make it past Horridon at this point, you're not the ones that the fourth difficulty level is meant for.

What we should be talking about is what changes to ask for so that the inevitable other difficulty level doesn't screw with our enjoyment of the game.

The people who are completely happy with the way it is, well, I'm sorry for you. It's not going to stay the way it is. Change is inevitable, yet the change you want is never going to happen. LFR is not going away.

What should we ask for from Blizzard to make that change as painless as possible?

[Choptimus]

I'd like for players to get better. Normals are not "too hard".

[Raelbo]

There is a way to get a difficulty between LFR and normal ... make an LFR that can only be joined as a pre-made group AND can be done with any number of people you like.

My suggestion was a 10 man option. Although I like the idea of dynamic raid size, I doubt it is possible to make it work well. There are just too many variables.

And to be honest about it, I am not sure there would really be a big demand for it.

An "easy" difficulty setting isn't needed for the 25 man raiding community because 25 man raiding has a much higher minimum standard (basically if you are going to the effort of organising a 25 man raid guild, you aren't catering for casuals - you're targetting committed players who are going to put in the time and effort and will be able to cope with normal modes). Not that I am saying 10 man raids mean worse players, but I think you'll find almost all of the casual and/or weaker raiders in 10 man setups simply because the logistics and setup are more forgiving in a 10 man setup.

Since most guilds who would the target of "easy" mode raiding would probably aim to progress to normal at some stage, it doesn't make much sense to make the raid size dynamic, because once they are onto normal modes, they'll need a roster for 10 man raiding anyway.

[Choptimus]

In my guild, a genuinely casual guild, there are at most 3 of us who are up to the task of participating in ToT normal progression. The rest of the guys simply don't play enough to get the gear or the skill necessary to down the first boss, let alone waltz through the place.

It sounds like LFR is for them, then. If you can't "play enough to get the gear or the skill necessary to down the first boss" then maybe raiding isn't for them, it's "beyond" them if you like.

[Deleted]

I vote for option D). Think LFR difficulty but for 10 mans and maybe a liiittle bit harder. Drops stuff with ilvl around 508. Shared lockout with normal/heroic. Should be gated at the same progress as LFR in order for it not to be used as a "seeing content method".

[Deleted]

There isn't really a gap, in the same way when there was no LFR people moved into raiding by wanting to learn how to raid. LFR isn't ment to be serious raiding more a lightweight thing for people to do if they don't want to spend the time raiding, there isnt a problem with this.

Any perceived issue I think is infact that everyone and there dog is trying to do 10 man raiding as its easy to get 9 other mates together and far easier to coordinate 10 people than it is 25 (as LFR proves time and time again). The problem we have now is that 25 man suffers due to the number of 10 man groups that pop up.

Easy mode wouldn't fit anything in the same way as LFR doesn't get you ready for raiding. Research and teamwork get you ready for raiding.

Play what you want to play be it LFR, 10 man or 25 man.

[Raelbo]

I suspect that there's ego involved, that always makes people stop listening.

This is a self-selecting board of people who are not the target audience for the changes Blizz is going to make. If you can make it past Horridon at this point, you're not the ones that the fourth difficulty level is meant for.

hmm, the way I am thinking now, a fourth difficulty level is not what is needed. Something at LFR difficulty, but aimed at weak 10 man guilds is what they probably should go for.

What we should be talking about is what changes to ask for so that the inevitable other difficulty level doesn't screw with our enjoyment of the game.

absolutely

The people who are completely happy with the way it is, well, I'm sorry for you. It's not going to stay the way it is.

The way I see it, implementing a 10 man "easy" mode with LFR gear, no achievements, and sharing a lockout with normal/heroic shouldn't have any effect whatsoever on anyone who is happy with the way things are at the moment.

People coping on normal/heroic modes will carry on doing what they do, while some guilds they probably have nothing to do with will be able to make some progress. In fact, this will benefit players with alts who want to gear up without having to rely on LFR, because they will be able to pug this mode on their alts.

Change is inevitable, yet the change you want is never going to happen. LFR is not going away.

Haters always gonna hate..

What should we ask for from Blizzard to make that change as painless as possible?

Yeah, and in this case, I think that is quite within the realm of possibility

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 05:47 PM ----------

It sounds like LFR is for them, then.

Yes and no.

I don't think anyone minds LFR. But try to understand this: We are a group of friends who want to get together once a week for 3 hours and do something fun in the game. Something of LFR difficulty, but doable as a group of 10, no queuing, no random people etc, would probably be quite ideal.

If you can't "play enough to get the gear or the skill necessary to down the first boss" then maybe raiding isn't for them, it's "beyond" them if you like.

So, because my friends aren't good enough to do real raiding, they shouldn't be allowed to have any fun in the game? Seems like a silly idea to me.

I am not advocating making any existing content easier to accomodate my friends. I am agreeing with the idea of adding a difficulty level (with commensurately weaker rewards) to accomodate their fun, and I totally agree that such a change should have zero affect on the WoW community that is currently raiding successfully.

[Ryzzen]

I'm actually shocked that nobody, that I read, has mentioned using the Determination buff from LFR. Now, please finish reading before smashing your keyboard buttons. I wouldn't want it the way it is, but with an adjustment and a limit it could prove useful.

Let's say every 5 wipes you get 1 stack of it with a max of say 10-15%, but only if the encounter lasted for say 2-3 minutes. That would limit people abusing it I think. It drops off after each boss. Most casual guilds play on limited time so this would help them, but only where they needed it.

You should have seen all the mechanics by 3 minutes and if you still can't kill it after 10-15% buffs then you need either keep trying or come back next week. Blizzard wouldn't need another difficulty and the tech is already in the game. It just needs an adjustment.

Now I don't think they should touch heroics at all. Heroics are great as they are and should never be nerfed. They are "heroic" after all.

[fangless]

At what point do you just add an in-game youtube player that shows you boss kill videos when you pull a boss -_-

They already mentioned that tuning may have been incorrect for Throne normals, why would they go and add a new "mode"?

[Balazaar]

I am not advocating making any existing content easier to accomodate my friends. I am agreeing with the idea of adding a difficulty level (with commensurately weaker rewards) to accomodate their fun, and I totally agree that such a change should have zero affect on the WoW community that is currently raiding successfully.

Actually it would have an effect. I can't say for sure if it ultimately would be a detrimental effect, but it would have one. It might make it harder to find people for normal mode raids. It could increase the players available as the learning curve flattens a bit with the added level. It might have some other effect. But overall there's one great reason you are not going to see another difficulty level ...

Blizzard isn't going to dedicate the resources to it. They already have to make choices on content and this will make things worse, so don't expect to see it anytime soon.

[Tripl]

Hands off my 10 man normal. It is perfectly tuned. We took a few weeks on Horridon (killing it the week before the nerf), one week for Ji-kun and we just killed Durumu after a total of 5 hours wiping. Real progress, which feels great.

In my opinion there is nothing in between 10mN and LFR, LFR is for those that can't move from fire and shit, 10mN punishes you for the basics of raiding but still has room for errors. Heroic is actually a monster trying to kill you on every move.

And no, I do not want the Determination buff. In those 5 hours of wiping on Durumu we had a total of about 30 wipes. Once or twice we got sub 5% before hitting enrage. I would really be pissed if I get that buff forced down my throat when the only thing my group needs is a little bit more attention so they spot the adds just a bit faster so we can kill them faster so we get more dps on the boss.

Progress means bumping into a barrier and taking time and effort trying to get over that barrier. I don't want blizzard to raise the ground under my feet by 1% for every five jumps we fail. And if your group doesn't want / can take the effort to spend time sitting down, learning fights and your class, well... LFR and heroic dungeons are that way.

[Deleted]

I don't believe so. If anything LFR helps to fill the gap and cater to some people. Do you honestly think that any "real" raider believes that LFR is a perfect substitute for normal/heroic modes? I think most LFR raiders accept LFR as a compromise that works for them because they cannot raid normal/heroic even if they wanted to. It's highly probable that most raiders who stopped raiding normal/heroic when LFR came into being were people who were unlikely to continue raiding anyway. At least LFR gave them something else to do.

The problem lies within LFR is not just for LFR raiders. Normal and heroic raiders are largely forced to run them. The biggest relief of my raiding tier is when I no longer need anything from LFR. Though then I still usually help the ones that still do since I still need to get valor point anyway, and LFR gives more valor than actual raiding. Awesome logic there by blizz.

By that logic, why force both 10 and 25 man? Why not just allow 10N and 10HC? Sorry, but the shared lockouts were a very good idea. Instead of having your difficulty setting determined by your raid size, allow people to choose the difficulty of their content independently of their raid size preference.

You are not listening to what I am saying. I did not say you should force 10 and 25, it was just an example. You could run 10+10, 10+25, 25+10 or 25+25. Having 10+25 was just an example to illustrate a point. What I was saying was that having 10=25 in terms of discussion (for discussion sake, lets presume that they are, lets not turn this into 10v25 discussion) worked out kinda well.
Though I see now that I wrote Cata and not WotLK. What I meant was the ICC system, of having 10 and 25 shared. You had the option of running 10N/10H and 25N/25H. Instead of having it like that. You should have the option of running 10N/25N and 10H/25H. That you have 2 lockouts, 1 normal and 1 heroic, instead of having one 10 man and one 25 man lockout. That would encourage pugs and I think would work out better. If you want to run 10N/10H or 25N/10H or whatever combination you want to run does not matter.

While I hear your reasoning, I don't think you are correct. If someone wants to be able to clear the raid twice a week with pugs, they can roll an alt to do so. Honestly, the only reason people used to pug ICC10 was because the felt forced to (something you seem to think is a bad thing).

I care to disagree. Throughout ICC, I had full 25H BiS gear with shadowmourne. Yet I would still join random pugs to toc10, togc10, icc10 etc out of the joy from raiding, puggin was fun. Making friends in pugs, setting the pugs up, learning the community, that was fun. I needed absolutely no loot at all. Some raids even payed me some money to cover repairs and flasks/pots for helping them out.

I also used to run icc10 sometimes with friends even though I needed nothing and most of my friends was in the same boat, just running it for the joy of raiding. Also doing icc10 to help people get their glory mounts was fun.

Though still, you touched a point, some people felt forced to play ICC10N, just the same way people feel forced to do LFR now. The difference is, setting up a pug actually fighting for your loot encouraged people to actually interract with other people, make your own group with some thought put into it. Finding those good players. Also it encouraged people to play well, learn the fights and not fail, especially since the world is small. If you played bad, people would know about it. How you played in pugs could get you into guilds, or get you into better pugs the next week. I used to pug with a semi alt run from a guild that was kinda good, world 100-ish~. I leveled up a new alt and noticed that their GM was setting up another pug, I wrote to him who I was, that I pugged with them before. Even though my gear was shit, so shit that I would not have been able to find an ICC10N group doing more than gunship, he let me join, and my item level gotta have been like 220-230 average or something. Yet I helped 2 man heal 10/12 heroic with the last two on normal, the week after we did 11/12 heroic, and I was not carried. The other healer died twice on putricide heroic and I solo healed it with some assist from a boomkin. That only happened because he knew me, I had pugged with him before. My reputation was good enough for him to bring me in since he knew I was a good player.

LFR promotes people to be anonymous. To people to not give a shit, since no matter how bad you play, it has no repercussions. Why play good when you get the same reward from playing bad? I have never heard a story of someone getting kicked after joining a LFR because someone says. "Hey, I remember this guy, I played LFR with him 7 months ago and he was quite terribly. His dps was way to low and he died in fire a lot".
Same goes for guild, when have you ever heard someone getting declined to join a guild because o the same reason?
Of course this sound negative, but it works in both ways. Lets say you play very serious in LFR, you give it your best effort. You do not get any reward for it. It is not like you are gonna get invited for a LFR the next week by some guy because you played well. Like it mentioned earlier with my alt in ICC, first week 10/12H, second week 11/12H. That means that by playing better, we got more kills and more rewards. You do not have that in LFR. Coming back the next week in LFR and improving your game won't give you more loot. It also won't get you any guild invites.
"Wow, I played with mike back in dragon soul LFR, damn he was really awesome on avoiding that fire on the ground ticking for 0.01% of his HP and he was topping the damage meters over the people doing the same dps as the hunters pets and the afkers."

Just the way LFR discourage people from putting effort into their play and does not punish people for playing bad is terrible. It is so counterproductive and a large reason why the WoW community has gotten so dumbed down.

LFR does not give the same rewards as a normal raid. People avoid pugs because they are a hassle. Always have been. If pugs took a knock due to LFR, it's not because of LFR. It's because the pug experience was lacking.

Because the raiding scene changed from 25H>10H=25N>10N to H>N>LFR. You can't compare LFR with current N raids, gotta compare it with the old N raids. Ofc pugging is a hassle now. Pugging 25N used to be a hassle before. Pugging 10H was only possible since some 25 guilds did not run official 10s and they needed pugs to fill out their groups.

That is tired argument that had some merit at the beginning Dragon Soul. With the tweaks they have done in MoP, and particularly ToT, there is absolutely no reason to feel compelled to LFR because it no longer offers an exclusive way to get an advantage to anyone who needs that advantage. If you are in a top guild, you'd already have superior gear to LFR gear at the start of ToT. Because ToT LFR released its wings very slowly, all the top guilds would be getting all their reputation and legendary items from normal/heroic runs and wouldn't need to do LFR for it. If you're not in a top guild, you don't actually "need" to get every advantage in the game.

In short: If you are a raider for whom running LFR would give you an advantage, you aren't playing at a high enough level to justify forcing your raiders to do LFR.

Off spec gear? You heard of it? Your off spec is likely not to be fully geared even if you are in a top guild.

Filling out set bonuses aswell as for me as a tank there are some 502 pieces (namely trinkets) that are better than even 509+8 pieces. Not sure about other classes, but heard there are some sick healing trinkets in ToT, so very likely that healers needed to run it too.

Top guilds needed to run it aswell. Also you have alts. Any hardcore progression guild will have alts that you are expected to gear up. Your alts are likely not to be fully geared making LFR

I....am....almost....speechless.

Seriously, how can you possibly argue that you have to run those LFRs? Kindly explain what exactly drives that need? I can accept the argument that a competitive raider needs to have a well geared main, but as I already demonstrated, you don't even have to do LFR with your main. Methinks you are too eager to elevate optional content to the level of need.

LFR is more needed on my alt than on my main. I am forced to run through 9 LFRs on 1 alt and 4 LFRs on the other. I have a third alt that I have completely forsaken due to the other 2 sinking too much time. Since I recently changed guild and we are building up a new really hardcore progression group, I am now expected to have 2 raid geared alts on top of my main. Since my previous alt was a hunter but that did not cut it now, I had to reroll my old alt to warlock due to have good they are, my main is prot paladin so having a warlock for those 1 tank fights is awesome. I also had to get a BRM monk up to speed simply due to how much stronger they are than the other tanks, especially in preparation for the next tier when very likely I will be forced to reroll BRM. Still just having a BRM for those fights that a prot paladin doesnt cut it is invaluable.

So my warlock has been 90 longer and does not need anything from T14 LFR, so only need to do the 4 new LFRs on that one.
My monk is not so lucky. I do not need any gear from T14 LFR, but I have to run them all to get sigil of power/wisdom since I recently dinged and have to get back on line with the legendary quest line. That quest line is another matter though... cant understand why LFR drops the items.
So I have to run 5 LFRs just for a quest. Then I have to run ToT on LFR aswell for gear.

So that is a total of 12 ToT LFRs acress 2 alts and 1 main for that missing trinket+off spec gear. Add on top of that 5 LFRs for the legendary quest on one alt, so that is 17 LFRs I need to run.

That is on top of having to run ToT normal on both alts in alt runs aswell as attempting to pug T14.
I am so glad that the next week we are gonna start running T14H alt runs for gearing up so I do not need to do T14 LFR for the legendary chain anymore. Should be done next week though with that anyway.

A friend of mine recently switched main to a new dinged character. He ran all T14 LFRs. Afterwards he calculated where he would get the biggest item upgrade, that was the belt from amber-shaper. He got 20 coins for extra rolls, he ran amber shaper LFR 20 times, yes, 20 times, using the coin on amber shaper every time. He did not get it, but the second week he got it on the fifth amber shaper run or something. In 2 weeks he did amber shaper LFR 27 times to get one item upgrade. That is what hardcore players do. It has been 4 weeks now since he dinged 90.
His LFR runs include.

MSV part 1 - 5 times
MSV part 2 - 4 times
HoF part 1 - 4 times
HoF part 2 - 29 times
Terrace - 11 times
ToT part 1 - 5 times
ToT part 2 - 4 times
ToT part 3 - 4 times
ToT part 4 - 4 times

That is 70 LFR runs in 4 weeks on one character, or 17.5 LFR runs per week to optimize one character.
That would be 45 runs in the first 2 weeks, making that 22.5 runs per week in the first 2 weeks.
Having to do 22.5 LFR runs to optimize your new character, you see how this is an issue?

You talked a lot about LFR/normal/heroic raiders. Normal and heroic share lockout. Why do not LFR share with normal and heroic aswell? That would solve a lot of problems. Let the LFR raiders have their LFRs, just dont force it on hardcore raiders gearing process. If I could not run both LFR and normal that would solve so many problems. I would have to do ToT on both LFR and N/H on 3 characters. Also pugging T14 on alts would be more attractive. Since right now pugging has been kinda, hmm, I can get free epics in LFR with increased drop chance, or I can have a smaller chance of getting slightly better loot, for a lot more effort with big chance of not even having a successful group. If they shared lockout, I could instead spend the time on my alts actually putting together T14 runs if I could ignore LFR.

LFR should NOT be a part of the gear up process. At best it should drop 463 gear. Why do LFR raiders need gear if they are only raiding LFR? Just tune it for 463 gear. It would be the same experience for LFR raiders without forcing N/H raiders into LFR.

How many people would run 5 mans, normal raids or heroic raids if they didn't drop loot?

Make it drop 463 then, or share lockout with normal. The point is, LFR should never, ever, ever in any possible fashion be worth running for a raider or a raider alt. And you touched my point exactly. Blizzard are saying that "Oh, people run LFR to experience the content, now everyone can see the final boss bla bla". No, the reality is that a majority of people are running LFR because they have to get gear upgrades and given the chance would skip LFR entirely. Most people are not enjoying LFR, just feel like they have to do it. Have it drop completely irrelevant gear / share lockout and tune it down accordingly and then see how many people are running LFR because they want to see the content and enjoy it. My guess would be not many.

You do not see the problem here?

I think you need to look up the word "force". There is nothing in LFR that forces anyone to do it. The rewards on offer from LFR may be enticing to many players but far from compelling for any purpose other than LFR itself.

If you "need" to run LFR it is because of situation you have created for yourself by your own choices/actions. Punishing the masses of players who actually enjoy LFR because of a situation you created is hardly fair.

I think I covered this a few paragraphs above. My job as a raider, is to take every step I can do optimize my character. If the best way for me to improve my character outside of main raids, is to run LFR, then I am 'forced' to run it. Not running LFR severely gimps my character.

I would really like to meet this masses of players who enjoy LFR. Everyone that I know in WoW, people in my guild aswell as the social guild one of alts is in, my IRLs etc, all agree that it is a pile of crap. I have never met a person that enjoys it. Now that is from my view, maybe I am completely wrong and 90% of the population love LFR. However when running LFR, I never see happy smiles. It is either

1. People not saying anything, just mindlessly clicking random buttons zerging everything down with no structure, tactics or anything, just collecting free epics. No communcation at all between players.

2. People screaming, swearing, cursing eachother, 'kick that guy', 'how can you be so bad', 'you guys suck' etc.

I do not know about you, but I would not call that enjoyable. The hostile atmosphere in LFR is just terrible. As said, I could be wrong, but I have never been in an LFR where the players were actually talking, being happy, smiling, enjoying themselves, and I have run over 200 LFRs for sure.

Though I am all up for not punishing the masses of LFR. Just share lockout with normal/heroic raids or make the gear completely irrelevant. The 'masses' that love LFR for the fun it brings can continue to run it and the normal/heroic raiders can just ignore it and stick to their game. Everybody is happy without punishing anyone. And since the masses of people loving LFR is so huge, the queue times would not be affected at all.

Why?

So that you don't need to feel like you have to do it (when the truth is you don't actually have to do it)?
So that all those LFR no-lifers can get punished?



Why? Who is it hurting? What is your logic here?

Me, having to run the LFR just to get the progress on the legendary quest line. Remember sitting out on a boss in ToT on my main since I did not need any loot, so let the other guy come in and get some loot. Since I missed that one boss, I had to spend 30 minutes in queue and 1 hour finishing a LFR just to get a chance at getting that runestone drop. Which I ofc didnt, 90 minutes for nothing.

I agree though that it is partly my fault on my alt, since I could just run MSV/terrace/ToES on normal/heroic, but due to just being so overwhelmed with LFRs to run, I simply did not have the time to put together groups. LFR was the easy way out, but I take that on myself, that is my fault.

If you already do normal mode raiding, you don't need to do LFR. If you don't do normal/heroic raiding, LFR gives you an option to progress your legendary quest chain. It is still a ton of work to get it, grinding LFR week after week. But it's entirely optional because let's face it: The people who really "need" the legendaries don't get any benefit from it being in LFR.

Covered above with alts and having to sit out, but I agree, that is my situation, but know others in the same situation, and sucks knowing that "Okay, I am sitting out on this boss. Now I have to waste 90 minutes just to get a chance on that quest item." Would be much better knowing "Okay, now I am sitting out, I cant get it this week".

Seriously your agenda with these proposed "improvements" to LFR can be summarised as follows:

"I don't like LFR. It's not fun. I want Blizzard to take out all the stuff in LFR that makes it fun for other people, then you'll see that I am right."

No, completely wrong. Just as wrong as I would say to you that your agenda is "I like LFR. I want free epics for no effort. I do not want to talk to people. I do not want to perform well."

Which I would assume is wrong. Just pointing it out there that you got me as wrong. My "agenda" is that.

1. LFR should never ever ever in any remote fashion be rewarding to run for normal/heroic raiders. T14 LFR gear should be 463 ilvl and T15 LFR should be maybe 480~. Atleast below 489. It would make absolutely 0 difference for LFR raiders, but would be a godsend to normal/heroic raiders.

2. Either that or share lockout.

3. LFR does not promote people playing well or punish people playing bad. Therefor indirectly supprting bad play. This has largely contributed to make the raiding skill of the wow population severely worse. It is just very counterproductive.
Just look currently, people are actually thinking that normal modes are hard! That has nothing to do with normals being harder now than before. It is the raiding population becoming worse. A lot of which can be contributed to LFR, but also to the lockout splitting.

4. In the same fashion, LFR does not encourage people to socialize, make friends, actually interract with the world. LFR almost turns it into a single player game, since even though you are playing with other players, they could just aswell be NPCs since you are not interacting with them. This is an MMO, if you do not like social interaction with other people, try a single player game? LFR has really killed the server community.
LFG, fine, I understand that. Putting together daily heroic groups as time consuming. That is both + and -
However LFR is by far one of the worst things that ever happened to wow, completely killing the atmosphere, making people more hostile and worse at raiding.

5. Just to stress again, having to to 45 LFR runs in 2 weeks 70 LFR runs in 4 weeks on a new character in order to optimize himself, now this was not me, but a friend of mine. Tell me you can not see the problem?

[Nairobi]

E) take away lfr, now there is no gap.

It is fine the way it is. There should be a gap between LFR and Normal Raiding. I do not see any need for a distinction between 10 and 25 raiding either.

I'd like for players to get better. Normals are not "too hard".

Basically all of this. I didn't vote because none of the options are worthwhile.

Players need to stop demanding everything be dumbed down, instead of trying to actually get better. It's a vicious and sad spiral.

If you NEED something to change, do this:

Put LFR(s) and normal/HCs on the same lockout. Leave LFR25 as it is (queueable as random 25 ppl) and add in a 10man version, made available with the same "mechanics" as traditional LFR (minus the stacking buff). It would be on the same lockout as LFR25, would be the same gear that exists (502), but would drop the gear like a normal raid (rather than rolling it) and would be intended for the casual folks who want to play with friends/family in low stress, without fear of failure or w/e, or for the guild who wants to progress in 10s but can't quite do normals.

This makes it so that:
1) Normal/HC raiders no longer "feel forced" to do LFR.
2) Raiders that can't quite get into normals, but don't enjoy/find challenge in LFR25 have a progression path (with a feasible, nonrandom loot system).
3) Keeps LFR and Normals separate, as the audiences (by and large) do not overlap.

[MoanaLisa]

People who are still calling for LFR to be abolished or have the difficulty increased so that it would be next to impossible for an LFR group to finish anything or remove the gear reward should start to realize that the argument about LFR's existence is settled. "Seeing the content" is one of the reasons it exists and not the sole reason it exists. It's not going away any time soon and in case if it's changed it's likely to be changed to make it even easier. Witness the determination buff. It's embarrassing to imagine that anyone thinks this is a solution to anything. I'm not so sure myself that the difference between LFR and Normal needs to be 'fixed' in any case but people have proposed actual ideas around that that make sense in case it really does.

Blathering on about how terrible LFR is doesn't address anything at all because it's not going to go away and it's certainly not going to get to be any more difficult. If the raids in MoP are stronger, bigger and altogether a step up from Cataclysm--an arguable point but one that has some validity--it's because LFR participation makes them worth building.

For the record lockouts are fine like they are and so is 10/25 loot. Honestly, I think raiding is in as good a place as it's been in a long time.

[Deleted]

Put LFR(s) and normal/HCs on the same lockout. Leave LFR25 as it is (queueable as random 25 ppl) and add in a 10man version, made available with the same "mechanics" as traditional LFR (minus the stacking buff). It would be on the same lockout as LFR25, would be the same gear that exists (502), but would drop the gear like a normal raid (rather than rolling it) and would be intended for the casual folks who want to play with friends/family in low stress, without fear of failure or w/e, or for the guild who wants to progress in 10s but can't quite do normals.

This makes it so that:
1) Normal/HC raiders no longer "feel forced" to do LFR.
2) Raiders that can't quite get into normals, but don't enjoy/find challenge in LFR25 have a progression path (with a feasible, nonrandom loot system).
3) Keeps LFR and Normals separate, as the audiences (by and large) do not overlap.

You summed up my wall of text well Nairobi

*struts around the chess board*

[Shahad]

Basically all of this. I didn't vote because none of the options are worthwhile.

Players need to stop demanding everything be dumbed down, instead of trying to actually get better. It's a vicious and sad spiral.

If you NEED something to change, do this:

Put LFR(s) and normal/HCs on the same lockout. Leave LFR25 as it is (queueable as random 25 ppl) and add in a 10man version, made available with the same "mechanics" as traditional LFR (minus the stacking buff). It would be on the same lockout as LFR25, would be the same gear that exists (502), but would drop the gear like a normal raid (rather than rolling it) and would be intended for the casual folks who want to play with friends/family in low stress, without fear of failure or w/e, or for the guild who wants to progress in 10s but can't quite do normals.

This makes it so that:
1) Normal/HC raiders no longer "feel forced" to do LFR.
2) Raiders that can't quite get into normals, but don't enjoy/find challenge in LFR25 have a progression path (with a feasible, nonrandom loot system).
3) Keeps LFR and Normals separate, as the audiences (by and large) do not overlap.

I think it would be a better idea to introduce an Easy mode that is essentially Normal but nerfed a bit on the same lockout as Normals and HCs, with increased Valor rates from everything. Like an LFR Heroic. Regular LFR would be oriented more towards alts and people without a group or access to pugs, while LFR Heroic would be targeted at casual groups.

I think this is a better solution that strictly making LFR Normal-10%, as then the whole (alt) gear progression paradigm would need to change again, and it would take away from the crowd who don't have a group.

[clevin]

Basically all of this. I didn't vote because none of the options are worthwhile.

Players need to stop demanding everything be dumbed down, instead of trying to actually get better. It's a vicious and sad spiral.

If you NEED something to change, do this:

Put LFR(s) and normal/HCs on the same lockout. Leave LFR25 as it is (queueable as random 25 ppl) and add in a 10man version, made available with the same "mechanics" as traditional LFR (minus the stacking buff). It would be on the same lockout as LFR25, would be the same gear that exists (502), but would drop the gear like a normal raid (rather than rolling it) and would be intended for the casual folks who want to play with friends/family in low stress, without fear of failure or w/e, or for the guild who wants to progress in 10s but can't quite do normals.

This makes it so that:
1) Normal/HC raiders no longer "feel forced" to do LFR.
2) Raiders that can't quite get into normals, but don't enjoy/find challenge in LFR25 have a progression path (with a feasible, nonrandom loot system).
3) Keeps LFR and Normals separate, as the audiences (by and large) do not overlap.

No, because this ignores the issue they're trying to solve which is that there's a group of people who a) want to raid as an organized group for friends or family, b) have 1-2 people who aren't that good and are to some degree carried, and c) are faced right now with two bad choices, either telling their friends who aren't performing well that they can't raid or not progressing. The issue is that since these are groups of friends or family who like each other (a) isn't really an option. It's not about gear or even really making sure they see the content, it's about raiding much more as a social activity than as a progression activity. They raid in order to do something together in game, have fun and hang out.

Again, the easy way to do this is to have a new 10 man tier that's Easy. Keep everything else the same. Make sure you don't repeat the Horridon fuckup of having a challenging boss as the second boss in a raid. So you'd have a raid that progresses fairly smoothly in difficulty with these levels:

10 Easy
10 Normal
10 Heroic
25 Normal
25 Heroic.

All of those share a lockout. The Easy drops loot slightly higher than LFR but less than normal.

For people who can't or don't want to do any scheduled raiding, today's LFR is still around.

[clevin]

All the listed options are awful, if people can't handle normal modes, go cry more and gear up.

Dragon Soul ended along time ago, and your 8/8 hc doesn't mean you are a raider.

NOT THE FRICKING POINT. Really, would you people go read the interview so you understand what's being discussed?

[Nairobi]

You summed up my wall of text well Nairobi

*struts around the chess board*

Lol jesus that was a wall. I didn't even read the thread, to be honest. Seemed like waaaay too much of "Filthy Casual!" vs "Snobby Elitist!" arguments, and not anything constructive. But, it's a slow day so maybe I can go read it.

It's kinda creepy, we seem to always, always post the exact same though, in the same thread, nearly back to back. Unless it's about Holy Avenger.

I think it would be a better idea to introduce an Easy mode that is essentially Normal but nerfed a bit on the same lockout as Normals and HCs, with increased Valor rates from everything. Like an LFR Heroic. Regular LFR would be oriented more towards alts and people without a group or access to pugs, while LFR Heroic would be targeted at casual groups.

I think this is a better solution that strictly making LFR Normal-10%, as then the whole (alt) gear progression paradigm would need to change again, and it would take away from the crowd who don't have a group.

But why the hell do we need MORE segmentation and MORE levels of gear inflation. Since, if you introduce in a level between LFR and real raids, you'll have: 1) LFR, 2) LFR2.0, 3) Normal, 4) Normal TF/upgraded, 5) Heroic, and 6) Heroic TF/upgraded. 6 types of gear, for one tier. Really, is that not a little (lot) excessive? It's already crazy out of hand with balancing the tier progression vs. the pvp gear increase (look at the 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3 debacles), and now you want to exacerbate it?

And for what? To create a level that nobody needs? If you're not good enough to cut it in normals (which were perhaps admittedly overtuned, even though they were still really, really easy), then you have LFR. If you're in LFR, what do you need better gear for? It can be done in 480, and gives 502. Get full 502 and wait for next tier. Sound heartless? It's the EXACT SAME AS REAL RAIDING PROGRESSION. Top guilds did normals/heroics in first week(s) in the gear from last tier, now have max gear from this tier, and just wait til next patch. Weird how it's fine for them (and pretty much anyone else still progressing) but not for the LFR crowd?

---------- Post added 2013-05-17 at 05:07 PM ----------

No, because this ignores the issue they're trying to solve which is that there's a group of people who a) want to raid as an organized group for friends or family, b) have 1-2 people who aren't that good and are to some degree carried, and c) are faced right now with two bad choices, either telling their friends who aren't performing well that they can't raid or not progressing. The issue is that since these are groups of friends or family who like each other (a) isn't really an option. It's not about gear or even really making sure they see the content, it's about raiding much more as a social activity than as a progression activity. They raid in order to do something together in game, have fun and hang out.

Again, the easy way to do this is to have a new 10 man tier that's Easy. Keep everything else the same. Make sure you don't repeat the Horridon fuckup of having a challenging boss as the second boss in a raid. So you'd have a raid that progresses fairly smoothly in difficulty with these levels:

10 Easy
10 Normal
10 Heroic
25 Normal
25 Heroic.

All of those share a lockout. The Easy drops loot slightly higher than LFR but less than normal.

For people who can't or don't want to do any scheduled raiding, today's LFR is still around.

You missed the entirety of my post, even though I bolded it for you.

Giving a 10man version of LFR that allows you to go in AS A PREMADE GROUP with your guild (in this case, the guild of ppl carrying subpar firends/family) and progress IS the solution. Removal of the stacking buff means that they have to actually do the encounters, and as a reward, they are given loot commensurate with the challenge (the same 502 LFR gear) that they can distribute as they see fit (instead of being subject to RNG rolls).

How is that not the exact solution you're asking for, far more simply and elegantly implemented than creating a whole new level of "difficulty", gear, and logistics?

[Shahad]

But why the hell do we need MORE segmentation and MORE levels of gear inflation. Since, if you introduce in a level between LFR and real raids, you'll have: 1) LFR, 2) LFR2.0, 3) Normal, 4) Normal TF/upgraded, 5) Heroic, and 6) Heroic TF/upgraded. 6 types of gear, for one tier. Really, is that not a little (lot) excessive? It's already crazy out of hand with balancing the tier progression vs. the pvp gear increase (look at the 5.1, 5.2 and 5.3 debacles), and now you want to exacerbate it?

And for what? To create a level that nobody needs? If you're not good enough to cut it in normals (which were perhaps admittedly overtuned, even though they were still really, really easy), then you have LFR. If you're in LFR, what do you need better gear for? It can be done in 480, and gives 502. Get full 502 and wait for next tier. Sound heartless? It's the EXACT SAME AS REAL RAIDING PROGRESSION. Top guilds did normals/heroics in first week(s) in the gear from last tier, now have max gear from this tier, and just wait til next patch. Weird how it's fine for them (and pretty much anyone else still progressing) but not for the LFR crowd?

LFR Heroic wouldn't exacerbate anything. The gear would be only slightly higher than LFR, but under Normal and with it's shared lockout with Normal/Heroics it wouldn't make ilvls go up anymore than they already are.

The point is that LFR is not actual fun content. It's a compromise for some people to see content that they otherwise would never see and progress their characters a bit via lesser loot. LFR Heroic would be Normal mode nerfed a bit to allow casual guilds who want to raid but just hit a brick wall in Normal to actually have a difficulty for them that doesn't involve getting rid of members who aren't performing as much. It would also help with PuGing and alt gearing a bit.

In then end, there's no real negative to it, and it allows friends and family guilds to have content adapted for them instead of waiting for the Tier to be over so the raids get nerfed and they can THEN start progressing. So there is no rational argument agaisnt an LFR Heroic beyond you feeling that it's wrong.