Horde rebellion and Orcs

[Deleted]

But what about from a RP perspective? I play on a Role play server and I play each of my characters as their personality dictates. And my Orc is a Hellscream Loyalist. He is the Warchief, and ecause of the Blood Oath, he is sworn to protect and serve said Warchief. So why should Orcs be forced to fight against Hellscream? Lore wise, most Orcs have no reason to. The Blood Oath matters to them the most, over other Horde races. It is the fundamental oath of the Horde and has been apart of the Orcs far before their corruption into the Horde. Said Oath is something hammered into the heads of the Orcs. It is not an option rule to follow, it is not free will or 'democratic'. Orcs follow the Blood Oath because it is -everything- to the Orcs. So why attack Hellscream? He's achieved more than Thrall in their eyes. No more useless Theramore peace treaties. They have taken parts of Ashenvale to fuel their war-machine, they have taken all of Azshara for themselves. They have pushed the Alliance back from Theramore and wiped the largest human out-post on Kalimdor.

The reason lies in the events of 5.1. You helped Garrosh establish domination point to strengthen its position on the shores and fight off the Alliance.

How does your "Warchief" reward you? He send you on a special mission with Vol'jin and tries to have you assassinated along with him. THAT basically makes this whole thing personal for you, your character wants payback.

Why Garrosh do this? If its simply to ensure no witnesses why did he send you on the "mission" with Vol'jin in the first place? Perhaps Garrosh fears your power and ability, or your loyalty? You are after all not a Kor'Kron but an Adventurer, a mercenary gun for hire whose loyalties are tied to treasure and loot.

Regardless Garrosh tried to have you killed, and if you want to support someone who covertly tried to have you assassinated then maybe you have been hit over the head too many times by enemies over the years to think straight.

[Lastlivingsoul]

It is a conflict of interests to confront a successful leader that made you the person you are today.

Consider this, The Lich King, Arthas and Kel'Thuzad are all responsible for giving the power of undeath to every member of the Scourge and what is now the Forsaken. Some actually loved and were loyal to the Scourge and the Lich King and remained within the Scourge. Anub'barak was loyal, Arthas' two trusted luitenents in the Halls of Reflection and so were most of the Deathknights up until the battle of Hope's Light Chapel.

They all found out the hard way that they were all just pawns.

Pawns easily expendable.

Pawns easily replaced for a newer model.

Pawns that can't compete with a mindless Dire Orc Army growing under Ragefire.

Being a Conscientious objector wont stop Garrosh from kicking you out of your own home. Get wise, you are being replaced.

[Haven]

It is a conflict of interests to confront a successful leader that made you the person you are today.

Consider this, The Lich King, Arthas and Kel'Thuzad are all responsible for giving the power of undeath to every member of the Scourge and what is now the Forsaken. Some actually loved and were loyal to the Scourge and the Lich King and remained within the Scourge. Anub'barak was loyal, Arthas' two trusted luitenents in the Halls of Reflection and so were most of the Deathknights up until the battle of Hope's Light Chapel.

They all found out the hard way that they were all just pawns.

Pawns easily expendable.

Pawns easily replaced for a newer model.

Pawns that can't compete with a mindless Dire Orc Army growing under Ragefire.

Being a Conscientious objector wont stop Garrosh from kicking you out of your own home. Get wise, you are being replaced.

And who isn't a pawn? Dying in a righteous charge under a pretty banner is still dying for someone else's cause. Every soldier is expendable, it's a simple and sad truth. It's just that Evil Guys gloat over it and Good Guys pretend it doesn't happen.

[Verdugo]

The reason lies in the events of 5.1. You helped Garrosh establish domination point to strengthen its position on the shores and fight off the Alliance.

How does your "Warchief" reward you? He send you on a special mission with Vol'jin and tries to have you assassinated along with him.
.

Thanks to Vol'jin because that failure didnt want to die alone so he acted like your best friend so that the assassin kills you too. Damn I hate him so much.

[Arrashi]

Thanks to Vol'jin because that failure didnt want to die alone so he acted like your best friend so that the assassin kills you too. Damn I hate him so much.

Yeah him yelling "BRUTHA IM HIT" and "BRUTHA IM PINNED HERE" to us surely gave these goons wrong image. Hell i never met that guy before.

[Mister J]

The reason lies in the events of 5.1. You helped Garrosh establish domination point to strengthen its position on the shores and fight off the Alliance.

How does your "Warchief" reward you? He send you on a special mission with Vol'jin and tries to have you assassinated along with him. THAT basically makes this whole thing personal for you, your character wants payback.

Why Garrosh do this? If its simply to ensure no witnesses why did he send you on the "mission" with Vol'jin in the first place? Perhaps Garrosh fears your power and ability, or your loyalty? You are after all not a Kor'Kron but an Adventurer, a mercenary gun for hire whose loyalties are tied to treasure and loot.

Regardless Garrosh tried to have you killed, and if you want to support someone who covertly tried to have you assassinated then maybe you have been hit over the head too many times by enemies over the years to think straight.

The assassination attempt was on Vol'jinn alone, not the players. It's implied that the Heroes who go with Vol'jinn are quite familiar with him and would jump to his aid when the Kor'kron attack. After the scenario is dead, Vol'jin tells the player to "Tell da Warchief I'm dead". Why would the player go back to Garrosh if he was trying to have them killed? Garrosh could've easily killed you in another attempt later on. The events that follow involve you interacting with Garrosh on several times, in which he praises your ability to succeed (complete the quests, find the bell, etc). If he was really trying to have you killed, he'd have lopped your head from your shoulders in one swing.

The assassination attempt was on Vol'jin, but 'story wise' it's suppose to offend the player, thus allowing him to make the 'Blood Oath' with Vol'jin. Which doesn't make sense because the player should already be following the blood oath made to Garrosh. If it were three Orc players, with the Kor'kron, they wouldn't really have given a shit. Vol'jin has a history of causing problems with Garrosh and breaking the single most fundamental rule of the Horde.

[Zulkhan]

Beyond flawed teaches a night elf ruler who is several thousand times older and more experienced about elementary tactics - that is, after singlehandedly chopping a dragon's head in just one strike (nevermind that dragon's neck is several times thicker than the length of the sword). Naive Anduin playfully escapes certain death in numerous cases because everyone starts ignoring him when he's weakened or vulnerable. Yes, they are both completely natural, normal, average human beings.

Mmmm yeah you're right, in fact i think you have a solid understanding of what a "Mary Sue" is.

*trollface*

[Verdugo]

Mmmm yeah you're right, in fact i think you have a solid understanding of what a "Mary Sue" is.

*trollface*

I wouldnt call it Mary Sue, its often just insane amount of plot armor and knowledge they shouldnt have.

[Zulkhan]

cept you go back under Vol"jin's orders to "confirm" the trolls "death" to the Warchief and to under-handedly keep tabs

Too bad that the player returns alone without the Kor'kron trio. Garrosh for me knows or suspects something about the player, but just leave him be, since he plays the "Garrosh's loyal soldier" part and Garrosh just take advantage of his usefulness. But in the end none of the players are in his list of "right" men.

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 03:32 PM ----------

I wouldnt call it Mary Sue, its often just insane amount of plot armor and knowledge they shouldnt have.

I think that the whole point of that crap ally scenario was to shows that Varian understand Garrosh and his orcs better than Tyrande since his past, and pretty numerous, experiences with him or with just the orcs in general. But in the scenario this concept is portrayed poorly and badly, and all looks like Varian being a calm, wise and sharp leader and Tyrande nothing more than an aroused bitch.

[Florena]

That's why I like him. He has flaws, unlike mary sue Varian and Jesus Anduin.

Garrosh had flaws in Cataclysm. Now he's just off the deep end.

---------- Post added 2013-05-20 at 10:59 AM ----------

But what about from a RP perspective? I play on a Role play server and I play each of my characters as their personality dictates. And my Orc is a Hellscream Loyalist. He is the Warchief, and ecause of the Blood Oath, he is sworn to protect and serve said Warchief. So why should Orcs be forced to fight against Hellscream? Lore wise, most Orcs have no reason to. The Blood Oath matters to them the most, over other Horde races. It is the fundamental oath of the Horde and has been apart of the Orcs far before their corruption into the Horde. Said Oath is something hammered into the heads of the Orcs. It is not an option rule to follow, it is not free will or 'democratic'. Orcs follow the Blood Oath because it is -everything- to the Orcs. So why attack Hellscream? He's achieved more than Thrall in their eyes. No more useless Theramore peace treaties. They have taken parts of Ashenvale to fuel their war-machine, they have taken all of Azshara for themselves. They have pushed the Alliance back from Theramore and wiped the largest human out-post on Kalimdor.

So why attack? The only thing that an Orc would question is the honor of dropping a bomb on a target. But the argument "them or us" would come into play and take priority. Had Garrosh not pulled back from Theramores gates, the blue dragon dropping TREE'S on people would've done a lot more damage. Aside from Theramore, the Orcs don't have much to question or feel guilty about.

I realize this game doesn't have the element of choice, but I refuse to let the story dictate the way my character feels. Because that 'hero aspect' in the dialogue is also played by millions of other people. So are there millions of heroes who all see Garrosh's evil ways? No. I take my characters as I do on a RP server, and give each their own motives and personalities.

And before anyone does, don't chime in with he argument of the other races of the Horde hating Garrosh. This is strictly about the Orcs and their Warchief.

It's unfortunate that there's nothing there for Hellscream loyalists. But I do have a few suggestions you could roll with.

1. Only do the content, if you do it at all on a loyalist character, out of character or in the guise of a spy intending to betray the Rebellion later on. In the later case, you could rp that you're not killing kor'kron, but disabling them to gain the rebellion's trust.

2. Have your character focused somewhere else. For example, say your character is stationed in Krasarang during these events.

3. Focus your efforts on that character on killing Alliance players in the Barrens/Durotar, and either try to fight the rebels through RP means (such as /duel or rp battles) or just focus on the alliance.

4. Have this character wounded badly by the rebellion, as a means to have him out of the action until either the siege is over or garrosh does something in 5.4 to finally sway him.

[Trassk]

Id say its more than just a pinch of dissapointment[COLOR="red"]

Well, being completely blunt, and excuse my crudeness, but those people can stick it where the sun don't shine.

How often have I had to do quests on my character that is completely against my own moral perception, likes and interests? How often have I had to do quests where I just feel shitty afterwards (many of them done in the name of hellscreams horde infact).

And yet I've done them, gone though them, and now finally some actual retribution, and all I'm seeing is the whining form garrosh patsies about 'waah, I don't wanna fight against him, thats not faaair!'.

Seriously, we've even been given every god dam reason and motivation to fight against him as horde, where he's spat in our faces, threatened us with death, and even committed to having us killed by his assassin along with vol'jin when we go with him!

And thats yet not enough? well, screw those that can't follow the narrative better, it doesn't take a genius to figure out who the bad guy here is.

[Florena]

Well, being completely blunt, and excuse my crudeness, but those people can stick it where the sun don't shine.

How often have I had to do quests on my character that is completely against my own moral perception, likes and interests? How often have I had to do quests where I just feel shitty afterwards (many of them done in the name of hellscreams horde infact).

And yet I've done them, gone though them, and now finally some actual retribution, and all I'm seeing is the whining form garrosh patsies about 'waah, I don't wanna fight against him, thats not faaair!'.

Seriously, we've even been given every god dam reason and motivation to fight against him as horde, where he's spat in our faces, threatened us with death, and even committed to having us killed by his assassin along with vol'jin when we go with him!

And thats yet not enough? well, screw those that can't follow the narrative better, it doesn't take a genius to figure out who the bad guy here is.

You have a point when it comes to individual quests. But when has there ever been an entire raid tier like this? Two entire patches worth of content patches, in a row no less, where the side you want to fight for, that you WERE fighting for for the last expansion and a half, is now the enemy?

I feel particuraly bad for roleplayers of Garrosh loyalists. For them it's not even about who the want to side with ooc, but they enjoy rping a kor'kron style loyalist and this patch leaves them out to dry. It's a neccisary evil, who create an entire quest chain of content to side with the villain of the expansion? But it still sucks for those stuck in those shoes.

[Zulkhan]

You have a point when it comes to individual quests. But when has there ever been an entire raid tier like this? Two entire patches worth of content patches, in a row no less, where the side you want to fight for, that you WERE fighting for for the last expansion and a half, is now the enemy?

I feel particuraly bad for roleplayers of Garrosh loyalists. For them it's not even about who the want to side with ooc, but they enjoy rping a kor'kron style loyalist and this patch leaves them out to dry. It's a neccisary evil, who create an entire quest chain of content to side with the villain of the expansion? But it still sucks for those stuck in those shoes.

The main problem is that no matter how good and well intricated and developed such a chain would be, that would finish in two ways: your character killed in the attempt of stop the rebellion, or later incarcerated if he didn't partecipate in the war effort, but still shows where his loyalties are placed.

But for gameplay reasons the character must remains free of continuing his playing experience, doing the "adventurer" and so on. But would be horrible to have a die-hard loyalist shifts sides in the end of the expansion "becuase", just for gameplay reasons and nothing that could justify it lorewise. Even if the pg becomes an outcast, he would be nothing more than an exiled, no more a Horde member, and explain his involvement in future content would be absurdly hard.

[Florena]

The main problem is that no matter how good and well intricated and developed such a chain would be, that would finish in two ways: your character killed in the attempt of stop the rebellion, or later incarcerated if he didn't partecipate in the war effort, but still shows where his loyalties are placed.

But for gameplay reasons the character must remain free of continuing his playing experience, doing the "adventurer" and so on. But would be horrible to have a die-hard loyalist shifts sides in the end of the expansion "becuase", just for gameplay reasons and nothing that could justify it lorewise. Even if the pg becomes an outcast, he would be nothing more than an exiled, no more a Horde member, and explain his involvement in future content would be absurdly hard.

Yeah, hence why I think it a neccisary evil to just stay the course. Trying to find a way to work it in that isn't terrible would just be too complicated.

[Deleted]

You have a point when it comes to individual quests. But when has there ever been an entire raid tier like this? Two entire patches worth of content patches, in a row no less, where the side you want to fight for, that you WERE fighting for for the last expansion and a half, is now the enemy?

I feel particuraly bad for roleplayers of Garrosh loyalists. For them it's not even about who the want to side with ooc, but they enjoy rping a kor'kron style loyalist and this patch leaves them out to dry. It's a neccisary evil, who create an entire quest chain of content to side with the villain of the expansion? But it still sucks for those stuck in those shoes.

The only solution imo is to make Garrosh even more clearly evil. They have to make his crimes 10 or 100 times worse, then it would be easy to hate him. For now, I think it's some minor issues. Theramore was tactical brilliance, and yes shit happens in war, people die, big deal. It happens on both sides so I don't see how Theramore is somehow comparable to the Holocaust or anything. People do make it out like that but it's not even close. Everything combined is not enough to break loyalty of the Warchief with my Orc character. Blizzard should try harder than this if they don't want to piss off a portion of their fans.

[Maximus Testiculos]

Besides what he said, blizzard did not give any reasons for orcs to go against garrosh, most are lovingly following him. I think it will be very lame if they suddenly turned against him to do 'the right thing'.

[Trassk]

The main problem is that no matter how good and well intricated and developed such a chain would be, that would finish in two ways: your character killed in the attempt of stop the rebellion, or later incarcerated if he didn't partecipate in the war effort, but still shows where his loyalties are placed.

But for gameplay reasons the character must remains free of continuing his playing experience, doing the "adventurer" and so on. But would be horrible to have a die-hard loyalist shifts sides in the end of the expansion "becuase", just for gameplay reasons and nothing that could justify it lorewise. Even if the pg becomes an outcast, he would be nothing more than an exiled, no more a Horde member, and explain his involvement in future content would be absurdly hard.

its as I say so often, people need to stop considering there characters as lore characters in wow. They are not lore characters, and there actions can not seriously be considered canon, as they are just the token nameless 'adventurer' the quest givers keep refering to, thats nothing more then a backup, like the troops and grunts in WC3.

[ThatCanadianGuy]

See, now I don't understand a lot of things with the rebellion.

Like... why are we even allowed in Orgrimmar when we have openly aided the rebellion? Shouldn't we be on some most wanted list?

But yeah, being against the rebellion would be kind of fun

[Arrashi]

The only solution imo is to make Garrosh even more clearly evil. They have to make his crimes 10 or 100 times worse, then it would be easy to hate him. For now, I think it's some minor issues. Theramore was tactical brilliance, and yes shit happens in war, people die, big deal. It happens on both sides so I don't see how Theramore is somehow comparable to the Holocaust or anything. People do make it out like that but it's not even close. Everything combined is not enough to break loyalty of the Warchief with my Orc character. Blizzard should try harder than this if they don't want to piss off a portion of their fans.

I fully agree with you, garrosh would need to do something really bad for me to side with those filthy rebels.
Here are few examples:
- Becoming best friend with anduin wrynn - this would call for instant extermination
- If its revealed that his big ugly secret under org is shaohao hentai collection - and that asshole didnt shared with his loyal subjects
- Garrosh becoming Brony
- Garrosh descending into madness and banning usage of pants
- Having sex with aggra - thats just disgusting
- Negotiating peace with alliance.
Here blizzard you have ideas.

[3DTyrant]

What Venziir said pretty much sums it very nicely, if I do say so myself