League of Legends Lead Content Designer 'Morello' Scott talks about World of Warcraft

[Yosef1015]

I quite agree. The illusion of exclusivity and "neverending content" that Average Joe will never see is a core and essential part of the game. It gives people a goal to reach, impossible or otherwise.

as it stands, you can see everything every raid has to offer with ease - "hard modes" are just the same thing for a more dedicated crowd. It's not the same. People get bored. People unsub. People think back to better times with better content (better because they didn't get to wear it out) and lose the inclination to keep playing.

Like it or not, on some primal level, people WANT a goal they can't reach. They WANT content they'll only ever be able to see by looking up videos and getting involved in the community. It vindicates their investment. And if they DO ever reach it, it's an actual accomplishment instead of just the same thing everyone else in the game is doing.

could not have said it better myself, i was hooked on wow in bc and wrath because i strived for the ultimate goal, to kill lich king or illidan and now with lfr theres nothing to keep me playing, to keep my striving towards an ultimate goal

[hatsune]

If you reduced the quality of the gear from LFR to be more in line with 5mans then you will find a lot less people do LFR, but ultimately the reason LFR is bad is not because of this, it is because it greatly diminishes the value of Normal/Heroic modes and thus diminishes the value of the game to many players, a lot of gamers see WoW as a bit of a joke these days, a lot of the old players look back and see a sad shadow of a game they once loved.

Do you consider perhaps that some normal/heroic raiders didn't like that sort of high demand raiding lifestyle and only did so to see content. With alternatives, this is Something they no longer need to do. If normal/heroic raiding was so attractive, it would be able to compete with LFR on its own merits. As it stands, the only way LFR diminishes normal/heroic is because those same people, on at least some level, acknowledge that LFR is better. They would prefer LFR gone so that normal/heroic raiding doesn't have to compete with what is arguably a less stressful way to see content.

LFR is an easy effortless way to gear up and so people do it, don't try to connect that with any kind of quality gaming experience, LFR is popular because it provides the best and easiest way to gear up, in some cases the only way to gear up.

Perhaps a quality experience is a fun one. One free of the stress that normal/heroic brings with it. I find LFR a great quality gaming experience. Its fun for me and clearly fun for some others as well.

I don't like quote fishing but what do you mean when you say

if they wanted to raid they could have with just the effort needed

and

LFR is popular because it provides the best and easiest way to gear up, in some cases the only way to gear up.

Might that be an acknowledgement that it is no feasible to expect everyone to put in enough effort to see content?

[Bigbazz]

Do you consider perhaps that some normal/heroic raiders didn't like that sort of high demand raiding lifestyle and only did so to see content. With alternatives, this is Something they no longer need to do. If normal/heroic raiding was so attractive, it would be able to compete with LFR on its own merits. As it stands, the only way LFR diminishes normal/heroic is because those same people, on at least some level, acknowledge that LFR is better. They would prefer LFR gone so that normal/heroic raiding doesn't have to compete with what is arguably a less stressful way to see content.



Perhaps a quality experience is a fun one. One free of the stress that normal/heroic brings with it. I find LFR a great quality gaming experience. Its fun for me and clearly fun for some others as well.

I don't like quote fishing but what do you mean when you say



and



Might that be an acknowledgement that it is no feasible to expect everyone to put in enough effort to see content?

My point is that if someone wants to see the end content that means they want to raid, now the motivation to do that to put in the work and then reap the rewards is there, you earn the content. LFR being there takes away the motivation not because "oh I can do it on LFR so it doesn't matter" but because it lowers the value of the content, it makes it for everyone.

Understand that a big part of the motivation to do something challenging is because it is not something that everyone does, that is what makes it desirable, that is what makes it exclusive and that is what gives it value, and it is this value that WoW is lacking. A value that WoW was built and developed apon, at a time when the game was far more popular than it is now. This is a fact, we are arguing in a situation where WoW is less successful than it once was.

In LFR you consume the content, it is completely different. Gearing wise I mean that the normal modes are designed to be done with LFR gear, if someone wants to join a guild they have to at the very least gear up with a considerable ammount of LFR raiding first, thereby ruining the experience of doing it properly.


Like I said, it is fast food gaming, it is low quality jump in line and consume. It isnt about a challenging or rewarding gaming experience, it isn't about making new friends or combining efforts to defeat a challenge, it isn't about everything that "mmorpg's" or wow was about. LFR is a single player experience among other random people, with a guarentee of success regardless of skill or contribution.

[hatsune]

In LFR you consume the content, it is completely different. Gearing wise I mean that the normal modes are designed to be done with LFR gear, if someone wants to join a guild they have to at the very least gear up with a considerable ammount of LFR raiding first, thereby ruining the experience of doing it properly.

Not attacking you. But I recall it was said that LFR was not intended to be used as a gearing requirement. First tier on MOP was designed for heroic blues with valor/justice gear a bonus above what 5man heroics could give. Once you got a foot into Mogushan vaults, the only real enrage dps check in the early bit was soulbreaker.

[cityguy193]

What kind of rebuttal do you want? What about, "if exclusive content is so great, how come Morello has never included any in any game he's worked on?"

Do you agree with what Morello says? Or what he actually does? Because they're direct opposites.

He has worked on Guild Wars, which certainly had exclusive content.

[Elian]

I always have and always will disagree that "everyone should see everything". Exclusivity provides motivation, if you want to see the content then you have to get off your ass and do it

NO YOU DoN'T
If you want to see content you can just YouTube. there are 100s of videos of Guilds with boss kills.
however if you want to play content then you need dedication

[Bigbazz]

Not attacking you. But I recall it was said that LFR was not intended to be used as a gearing requirement. First tier on MOP was designed for heroic blues with valor/justice gear a bonus above what 5man heroics could give. Once you got a foot into Mogushan vaults, the only real enrage dps check in the early bit was soulbreaker.

"Not intended" and actual reality are often very different. Lets say I started playing as a fresh character and wanted to join a guild, there are gear requirements, how do I aquire that gear? I certaintly cannot do it via 5man dungeons alone, being realistic I have to do it via LFR. It is a necessity in todays game whether it is intended or not.


I dont raid in WoW, if they removed LFR I would not see the content, but understand that doing the content on LFR is not really seeing the content, all you're doing is spoiling it. It's like eating too much will spoil your dinner, could be the best dinner in the world but you eat too much and now you cba to eat it.



It mostly a psychological effect that a lot of people don't seem to understand, but the existance of LFR and what it reprisents and the effect it has on the game directly lowers the value of the game aswel as spoiling the content itself.

---------- Post added 2013-06-11 at 06:56 AM ----------

NO YOU DoN'T
If you want to see content you can just YouTube. there are 100s of videos of Guilds with boss kills.
however if you want to play content then you need dedication

Exactly, that means "getting off your ass and doing it"

Isn't that what I said? You're just agreeing with me, LFR is no different from watching a youtube video. If people really want to "experience" the content then they can by putting in the effort.


Going back to Morello : Just because people "want" to see the end content because they pay for it, it does not mean that is what is best for the game. If they want to it enough they will see it, without needing LFR Mcdonalds raiding.

[Repefe]

Do you consider perhaps that some normal/heroic raiders didn't like that sort of high demand raiding lifestyle and only did so to see content. With alternatives, this is Something they no longer need to do. If normal/heroic raiding was so attractive, it would be able to compete with LFR on its own merits. As it stands, the only way LFR diminishes normal/heroic is because those same people, on at least some level, acknowledge that LFR is better. They would prefer LFR gone so that normal/heroic raiding doesn't have to compete with what is arguably a less stressful way to see content.

Problem is LFR is sort of void of challenge. Normal/hc raiding is not attractive for the time constraints it creates, but content without challenge is not attractive either; not when there are game alternatives that offer challenge without time constraints. Now with flexible raiding there may be a sort of middle ground for this, but two problems with that.

a) It won't be properly tuned for everyone.
b) The gear system in WoW is stale same old same old ... the mix of playing content and getting gear is weakened by it.

[Yriel]

Blizzards statistics also tell us that there are far less players today. MMO champ figures show that a lot of people hate LFR.

What figures ? A poll where 200 people like it and 100 don`t ?

---------- Post added 2013-06-11 at 11:45 AM ----------

Going back to Morello : Just because people "want" to see the end content because they pay for it, it does not mean that is what is best for the game. If they want to it enough they will see it, without needing LFR Mcdonalds raiding.

Soo... do you want to remove youtube videos, too while you are at it ?

[hatsune]

Problem is LFR is sort of void of challenge.

Making LFR as pain free as possible might not be a bad thing really. People want to win. They want something that will put up a fight but still let them win. This might sound conflicted and I suspect it really is.

LFR at launch was still dangerous. You could seriously wipe on 3 bosses in vaults. Especially Will of the Emperor. On the Klaxxi side, that giant beetle, the one with the cc spears and Ursok was wipe central too. Eternal spring was fairly safe cept for the dragon and even he was pretty ok unless your healers couldn't dispel. Wipes were common and chain wipe failraids did happen. Now with the nice debuff and the regular raidboss nerfs, things are pretty good. You can still get a few wipes but your buff will usually overpower whatever was holding you back.

LFR has changed. Now its less dangerous and its mainly there to try and put up a fight. If it looks like you're losing, you'll get a determination buff and win in the end. Its not a bad system really.

On a side note, the raids/scenarios are still beautiful. I'm almost done clearing through them on my 7 day free time coupon.

[Deleted]

I quite agree. The illusion of exclusivity and "neverending content" that Average Joe will never see is a core and essential part of the game. It gives people a goal to reach, impossible or otherwise.

as it stands, you can see everything every raid has to offer with ease - "hard modes" are just the same thing for a more dedicated crowd. It's not the same. People get bored. People unsub. People think back to better times with better content (better because they didn't get to wear it out) and lose the inclination to keep playing.

Like it or not, on some primal level, people WANT a goal they can't reach. They WANT content they'll only ever be able to see by looking up videos and getting involved in the community. It vindicates their investment. And if they DO ever reach it, it's an actual accomplishment instead of just the same thing everyone else in the game is doing.

if this is the truth, why 99% of QQ threads these days are made by hardcore raiders (or normal wannabe ones) that whine about their experience being ruined by Average Joe happily running his LFR?
you don't see average joe complaining about having no content to run, this happened during Cata actually. now sometimes you even hear about too much stuff to do. this demonstrate that this theory is only valid for special snowflake hardcores, because they're not looked in awe anymore by those average joe-s they hate so much.

[Deleted]

I don't think Morello's comments are very profound, more like a proverb lacking the proper context of wow's history.

The maturing subscriber base of wow meant most people were looking for end game content. Blizzard had to provide more inclusive content for all levels of skill and time constraints. And to provide this, they looked to the old activity of raiding, they wanted to sell it as the primary thing you do.

But the problem with trying to sell raiding as the dominant activity is that it's no fun in the first place. LFR, the distilled act of killing bosses with large number of people is in itself boring. It always was this way. Raiding is simply, on a game play level, fucking boring. It was always the socialization, the gear elitism, the drama, the feeling of family that made it worthwhile.

So blizzard could have made people do real raiding, which is fun, and let those who wouldn't for whatever reason unsubscribe. Or they could try and sell us increasingly stripped down 'raiding', and see how long bored casuals stick would around for: the strategy that they of course went with.

It's not really the case that wow developers took the wrong turn, and indulged the wants of the player base instead of their needs.
Rather, the main problem is that the game is done. We're all max level. They can't innovate sparkly new things for us to do. They have to try and cut up and spoon feed old 1% activities to everybody else, which doesn't work because raiding is in itself boring.

We need titan, where the leveling / middle game can be the dominant activity once again. And the developers don't have to squash and dilute the endgame, to try and tailor it for those it simply doesn't work for.

[Holtzmann]

We need titan, where the leveling / middle game can be the dominant activity once again. And the developers don't have to squash and dilute the endgame, to try and tailor it for those it simply doesn't work for.

Interesting post, but you can't really build a MMO on leveling/mid-level game. Star Wars: The Old Republic tried that and they crashed and burned very quickly. And as a game matures, less and less people spend time leveling, and more time at the endgame. And given MMORPGs are repetitive and predictable games by nature (specially when you have a concept like a 'rotation' to keep you busy in a Raid), you're always going to have a fundamentally boring endgame.

You're right that the social game is what keeps people around... but how to foster it when online gaming itself is becoming more and more misanthropic as times goes on?

[Grocalis]

It's not really the case that wow developers took the wrong turn, and indulged the wants of the player base instead of their needs.
Rather, the main problem is that the game is done. We're all max level. They can't innovate sparkly new things for us to do. They have to try and cut up and spoon feed old 1% activities to everybody else, which doesn't work because raiding is in itself boring.

We need titan, where the leveling / middle game can be the dominant activity once again. And the developers don't have to squash and dilute the endgame, to try and tailor it for those it simply doesn't work for.

Pretty spot on. I still enjoy the game enough to keep my sub running, but after playing nearly a decade the magic is dead. This is why I like LFR, I get to see the content and continue playing in a relaxing format. Challenge is all fine and dandy, but I get enough challenges that are more fulfilling at work. WoW is my "de-stresser", and works best when I can see the content nearly stress free.

For those that like stressing out over difficulty and logistics, they have the content too, just not 100% unique content.

[Deathpony]

This thread had me thinking a bit more about WoW and more specifically what got me into raiding in the first place.

It was during an UBRS run (Upper Black Rock Spine) back in Classic. During this time, this dungeon was a 10man dungeon. Classic had dungeons that, in a sense, had progression to them - a concept carried into tBC. UBRS and 45min Baron Run in Strath, were at the top. You had to be geared enough and know wtf you were doing to complete these without wipes or not achieving the bonus objective in Strath for bonus loot.

I was in a PUG doing this 10man dungeon I'd done many times before. I was there specifically to acquire pieces for my Dungeon Set. Remember those? We haven't seen them since tBC. The 'dungeon tier' gear sets for people who didn't raid, or were thinking about getting into raiding. So there I was, working with this PUG, progressing our way to the final boss. It was going slowly but surely, and then someone had to leave just after we downed the Beast. Someone invited a friend/guildie they new, and in comes this rogue. This guy was in T1/T2 wielding Perdition's Blade off Rag from MC and the BWL Dagger in his offhand.

Being all decked out in raid gear, he looked very cool (those tiers were very well done art wise), which I thought was cool at the time. Freaking epics in every slot. But what blew my mind, was the insane damage he did in that dungeon the rest of the encounter. This guy just MURDERED IT.

What is important to remember is, back then you ran a lot of different dungeons to get your 'Dungeon BiS' items, and even then the fights were decent and close. So to see someone just plow through the content doing just massive numbers, and I took pride at the time in my capabilities by reading up on guides and such to max out what I was doing, but to just see what this guy was doing..

That's what got me into raiding. That's what made me see those trade chat yells for ZG and finally jump into one to see what it was like. I didn't want to be mediocre anymore. I wanted to be a badass, and if I had to put in a lot of time and effort to work for it, like anyone else, and further separate me from others, all the better.

The raiding bug bit me hard.

Classic and the Burning Crusade had that 'tier' of content to them. The pre-raid progression dungeoning, which did prepare you for the raids at the time you'd first start entering, especially UBRS. We had the Dungeon Tier sets. We had some hard boss encounters for the gear level (remember, people were running around with level 45-60 gear in those dungeons). It wasn't just gear preparation, but also encounter preparation.

This concept was given a vicious blow in Wrath of the Lich King and annihilated in Cataclysm, and we have not seen it since. Instead what we have in it's place is a concept that leaves players with no options but to start participating in 'walk thru' raid content that does nothing to inspire people to greater levels of play (skill with toon, and human interaction wise).

Previous to LFR and LFD, when we wanted to Dungeon or Raid, we had to spend time forming a group, getting there, and learning to deal with more personality types then perhaps we'd like to. This made us less prone to 'instant annoyance' which is rampant now, even in myself, with the current scenario. I used to be grateful when I got something going PUG raid or Dungeon wise before. I used to be tolerant of mistakes people made. Now in LFR and LFD I see I am not the only one who lacks patience with others.

It's not because I'm old or have been playing this game so long. It's because getting those groups requires no real effort. It requires patience, which quickly turns into annoyance. Seriously, I don't get wait times, especially PvP wait times. I just jumped on Guildwars 1 yesterday and I had 30-45 sec PvP queues in a game that's deader than shit.

The thing is, I have always had a thing for working with new players. Before it was the content that got them interested. Now? Not even. It's the guild/raid/social environment that hooks them for me. That's odd to me. It's not the game that keeps them logging in and coming back, it's who they are playing with.

That kinda says something about the current state of the game. Doesn't it?

[mosely]

if this is the truth, why 99% of QQ threads these days are made by hardcore raiders (or normal wannabe ones) that whine about their experience being ruined by Average Joe happily running his LFR?
you don't see average joe complaining about having no content to run, this happened during Cata actually. now sometimes you even hear about too much stuff to do. this demonstrate that this theory is only valid for special snowflake hardcores, because they're not looked in awe anymore by those average joe-s they hate so much.

And yet Average Joe is leaving the game in record numbers. Maybe Morello's assessment was correct and Average Joe doesn't actually know what he needs in a game? After a series of bad game design decisions (intended to please Average Joe), WoW is now in a state where I would not play it even if I was given a free subscription.

Also, I realize it is fashionable to use the term "special snowflake" in a derogatory manner, but who says that's the wrong outlook for players to have when you're trying to build a sustainable mmo?

[Nikijih]

This thread reminded me of everything horrible with the WoW community, notably the tendency to act like dirty politicians whenever they decide to take a side, dodging arguments, escaping questions, attacking the speaker instead of trying to refute what he is saying, etc. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, you are acting like children.

1) Stop comparing LoL and WoW. LoL has no exclusive content because the MOBA genre, unlike the MMORPG genre, does not involve exclusive content, period. Its not a design decision, its a genre limitation.

2) This is not about his credibility as a speaker, its about whether or not you agree with what he is saying, and why.

3) Yes, WOTLK was WoW's peak. However, no, that does not mean WOTLK was the best model, quite the opposite. It means WOTLK was when they stopped gaining subs and started loosing them instead. THATS what a "peak" means: its when you go from growing to decreasing.

4) No, WoW did not retain a high number of subscribers with its last xpacks. What it did is open vast markets to give the illusion that it managed to retain subs. Look at it this way: if they still lost overall subs even after launching in the asian markets, it means there were more people during that period leaving WoW in NA and EU than there were people joining it in asia.

5) A new difficulty, for many people, does not equate to new content. Pretending heroic difficulty is "unseen content" for someone having done LFR is akin to pretending Skyrim in Master is an "unseen game" for someone who played over 200 hours in Adept.

6) No, you cannot just "ignore LFR" if you dont want to see content before the actual raids, because it was set up as a significant stepping stone towards being able to obtain the ilvl necessary to reach said raids, making them de-facto necessary for anyone wanting to get into normal modes.

7) Yes, people want to be "special snowflakes", and no matter how derogative you think that is, its not. Its normal. These are social games, and the social aspects of it, including the desire and possiblity to somehow stand out from the crowd, are a big part of the appeal. If you want your achievements to be remarked as such, then it needs to be somewhat rare/exclusive, otherwise its not an achievement, its just... something you did. Without a social pyramid, there is no top to thrive for and reach.


Personally I will say this: I agree with him that exclusivity is a necessity in MMOs. The entire genre revolves around the carrot-on-a-stick principle, and exclusivity is a big part of that carrot. I, and MANY others I know (entire guilds I played with for years) have quit the game because that carrot is now gone. I still come on these boards every now and then to read up on something that occupied almost 8 years of my life, but frankly I have long since lost hope to see WoW given any sort of actual quality back into it. World of warcraft is a sinking ship and Blizzard knows it, so the name of the game has simply become "milk the most out of it until our next MMO project (Titan) is done".

[mosely]

This thread reminded me of everything horrible with the WoW community, notably the tendency to act like dirty politicians whenever they decide to take a side, dodging arguments, escaping questions, attacking the speaker instead of trying to refute what he is saying, etc. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, you are acting like children.

1) Stop comparing LoL and WoW. LoL has no exclusive content because the MOBA genre, unlike the MMORPG genre, does not involve exclusive content, period. Its not a design decision, its a genre limitation.

2) This is not about his credibility as a speaker, its about whether or not you agree with what he is saying, and why.

3) Yes, WOTLK was WoW's peak. However, no, that does not mean WOTLK was the best model, quite the opposite. I means WOTLK was when they stopped gaining subs and started loosing them instead. THATS what a "peak" means: its when you go from growing to decreasing.

4) No, WoW did not retain a high number of subscribers with its last xpacks. What it did is open vast markets to give the illusion that it managed to retain subs. Look at it this way: if they still lost overall subs even after launching in the asian markets, it means there were more people during that period leaving WoW in NA and EU than there were people joining it in asia.

5) A new difficulty, for many people, does not equate to new content. Pretending heroic difficulty is "unseen content" for someone having done LFR is akin to pretending Skyrim in Master is an "unseen game" for someone who played over 200 hours in Adept.

6) No, you cannot just "ignore LFR" if you dont want to see content before the actual raids, because it was set up as a significant stepping stone towards being able to obtain the ilvl necessary to reach said raids, making them de-facto necessary for anyone wanting to get into normal modes.

7) Yes, people want to be "special snowflakes", and no matter how derogative you think that is, its not. Its normal. These are social games, and the social aspects of it, including the desire and possiblity to somehow stand out from the crowd, are a big part of the appeal. If you want your achievements to be remarked as such, then it needs to be somewhat rare/exclusive, otherwise its not an achievement, its just... something you did. Without a social pyramid, there is no top to thrive for and reach.


Personally I will say this: I agree with him that exclusivity is a necessity in MMOs. The entire genre revolves around the carrot-on-a-stick principle, and exclusivity is a big part of that carrot. I, and MANY others I know (entire guilds I played with for years) have quit the game because that carrot is now gone. I still come on these boards every now and then to read up on something that occupied almost 8 years of my life, but frankly I have long since lost hope to see WoW given any sort of actual quality back into it. World of warcraft is a sinking ship and Blizzard knows it, so the name of the game has simply become "milk the most out of it until our next MMO project (Titan) is done".

How'd you manage to hit so many nails right on the head? Oh well, people are still going to bury their heads in the sand and continue misinterpreting the facts around them.

[mvaliz]

3) Yes, WOTLK was WoW's peak. However, no, that does not mean WOTLK was the best model, quite the opposite. It means WOTLK was when they stopped gaining subs and started loosing them instead. THATS what a "peak" means: its when you go from growing to decreasing.

*Cough*

The sub decrease didn't happen until Cataclysm launched. The peak of subscribers was literally 2-3 months BEFORE Cata launched, and well at the end of Wrath.

Your definition of "Peak" is wrong. The "Peak" is the exact highest point between two slopes. The slope only started going downwards the moment when Cata was released.

[Slaughty8]

He is correct and it only shows, that those posting alot/talking on the forums are also hardcore players who's reason to play is shared with 3-6% of all the community.
Devs have their statistics and observation tools, players too. You can clearly see who does what and what % of players enjoy which part of the game.

I find this whole "WoW decreased it's quality, homogenization is bad, skill means less now, quit all!" talk booring.

Sometimes expansions are not bad, they just show hardcore players that they are done with the game and they should move on with their lives. Also, huge sub drop is on the Asian side, where F2P games are massively appearing and are only being liked by them. It is specific market.