Itemsquish reminder

[Thyranne]

Also, the squish smooths out the leveling process between old expansions. It gets rid of the massive power jumps at those transitions so when you go to Hyjal/Vash'jir for the first time, you aren't faced with mobs 50+ ilvls higher than you are.

Good thing they added green to vendors

[Aquamonkey]

If they are waiting for more demand from players, they are going to be waiting a very long time.

If you payed attention, they're playing the long game. They're waiting for 6.0/7.0 for the demand to build.

They can always accelerate power creep.

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Good thing they added green to vendors

Because people leveling should have to drop hundreds of gold due to bad game design... That's really gonna win over new players. This is just a stopgap measure.

[Ferocity]

Also, the squish smooths out the leveling process between old expansions. It gets rid of the massive power jumps at those transitions so when you go to Hyjal/Vash'jir for the first time, you aren't faced with mobs 50+ ilvls higher than you are.

Mobs don't have ilvls. And having some wake-up calls during leveling isn't really bad. It is just a matter of completing some quests before you will start to outpace mobs again.

Good thing they added green to vendors

And older raids, where you could be boosted by friend

[huth]

If you payed attention, they're playing the long game. They're waiting for 6.0/7.0 for the demand to build.

They can always accelerate power creep.

Well, so far it hasn't. If anything, it died down.

[Thyranne]

Well, so far it hasn't. If anything, it died down.

Indeed. I'm glad to see that many people here are against it.

Because people leveling should have to drop hundreds of gold due to bad game design... That's really gonna win over new players. This is just a stopgap measure.

Really?25g per item (before faction discount + guild perk) is a lot?

[Ferocity]

Because people leveling should have to drop hundreds of gold due to bad game design... That's really gonna win over new players. This is just a stopgap measure.

I am not super "skilled" player. And on several alts I entered MoP zones still wearing many TBC and WotLK items, as I don't like to waste gold while leveling. It was problematic on start, but still zero deaths, and 10-20 quests later it became quite smooth again (only on pally it wasn't smooth, still 0 deaths).

[Aquamonkey]

Well, so far it hasn't. If anything, it died down.

They keep getting asked about it and they are still saying they want to do it.

Also, threads like these keep popping up.

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I am not super "skilled" player. And on several alts I entered MoP zones still wearing many TBC and WotLK gear, as I don't like to waste gold while leveling. It was problematic on start, but still zero deaths, and 10-20 quests later it became quite smooth again (only on pally it wasn't smooth, still 0 deaths).

You have more knowledge and experience than someone new to the game, regardless of your skill level.

[jbombard]

If you payed attention, they're playing the long game. They're waiting for 6.0/7.0 for the demand to build.

They can always accelerate power creep.

Well I'm sure they could also pull a Microsoft and intentionally make it slower and say see we really need to do this. But the question is do they want to run the risk of artificially using bad game design to further their goals when they are already having problems keeping people subbed.

[Thyranne]

They keep getting asked about it and they are still saying they want to do it.

Also, threads like these keep popping up.

He said decreases, never said it's 0.

[Aquamonkey]

Indeed. I'm glad to see that many people here are against it.

Why is that a surprise? Blizzard didn't do it because they knew players would hate it.

Really?25g per item (before faction discount + guild perk) is a lot?

New players.

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He said decreases, never said it's 0.

How did you measure that?

[Thyranne]

Why is that a surprise? Blizzard didn't do it because they knew players would hate it.

New players.

Still, 25g per piece even for new players at level 80 isn't a lot.

How did you measure that?

Compare this thread to other threads like this, it was more like 50/50 now it's clear (at least in this thread) that more people are against it.

[Aquamonkey]

Still, 25g per piece even for new players at level 80 isn't a lot.

If they find the vendor.

Compare this thread to other threads like this, it was more like 50/50 now it's clear (at least in this thread) that more people are against it.

Or they gave up arguing with people who directly contradict what Blizzard has stated.

[Thyranne]

If they find the vendor.

There are many ways to fix it like sending an in game mail or a quest or w/e.

Or they gave up arguing with people who directly contradict what Blizzard has stated.

So Blizzard stated that big numbers are scary therefore it's true?

[Ferocity]

If they find the vendor.

If player is new to the game, he is more than likely up to explore. He will find vendor.

And how it was preCata? There weren't even any leveling vendors (except those who sell white gear and occasional crappy green), quests were barely rewarding any useful gear as well, and there were some brackets (like 40), where game was heavily hinting you that you need to gear up (in dungeons). You could ignore these hints if you were familiar with this game, but new player couldn't and it was much less "evident" than some vendor with ready to buy gear.

[Aquamonkey]

So Blizzard stated that big numbers are scary therefore it's true?

Are you scared of small numbers?

The feels argument on both sides cancel out. Blizzard feels the game should look more elegant. Players don't want to feel weaker.

There's the computational argument Blizzard mentioned. If you don't want to believe them, that's your problem.

I gave a real gameplay problem that would be solved with the squish. Note that it happens at every expansion boundary, not just Wrath/Cata. This alone probably isn't enough to warrant the squish, but at least it's a real issue that the squish would solve.

[Phookah]

You aren't meant to solo old raids.

For "not being meant to solo them" blizzard sure is doing all kinds of stuff to stop you from doing them solo, amirite?
I mean, correct me if I wrong but doesn't blizzard typically fix something that wasn't intended to be done? At least eventually?
Soloing old raids has been a thing since wrath. They haven't done anything to "fix" it.
They aren't going to because it isn't a problem.

[Aquamonkey]

If player is new to the game, he is more than likely up to explore. He will find vendor.

And how it was preCata? There weren't even any leveling vendors (except those who sell white gear and occasional crappy green), quests were barely rewarding any useful gear as well, and there were some brackets (like 40), where game was heavily hinting you that you need to gear up (in dungeons). You could ignore these hints if you were familiar with this game, but new player couldn't and it was much less "evident" than some vendor with ready to buy gear.

The fact that Blizzard felt the need to address it, means that it is a real issue. This alone probably isn't enough to warrant the squish, but at least it's a real issue that the squish would solve.

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For "not being meant to solo them" blizzard sure is doing all kinds of stuff to stop you from doing them solo, amirite?
I mean, correct me if I wrong but doesn't blizzard typically fix something that wasn't intended to be done? At least eventually?
Soloing old raids has been a thing since wrath. They haven't done anything to "fix" it.
They aren't going to because it isn't a problem.

Because raids are released with the intent that people solo them... It's an unintended consequence of power creep. Also, solo'ing has been around since Vanilla.

[Ferocity]

Are you scared of small numbers?

I will answer as well. There were CRPG series like DTU, Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, which I tried to play after being spoiled by fluidity of Might and Magic and some jRPGs. It was a bad feeling, not seeing any upgrades from what you find at start of game till late in the game, getting like 1 level per several hours, which randomly increased your HP, increase could be even in 1 HP, and then suddenly you meet level cap (which was around 7 in BG I) without even getting a taste of any character progression.

Or Descent to Undermountain, my first AD&D CRPG. I rolled wizard, and couldn't find where is my HP shown. I couldn't believe it was "1/1" till I made it through 1st dungeon, got level-up and 4/4 HP, still being one-shot wonder in 2nd dungeon -.- I never even completed that game, and hence then I dislike any CRPGs with D&D ruleset.

Increase in numbers in WoW is justified. You don't go from 100 HP to 100k HP in one zone. Raid part was made optional in character progress during leveling, but it is still quite a big chunk of content, many people progressed through. Twilight Highlands and Jade Forest have quite a number of currently optional 5-men and raids between them.

Because raids are released with the intent that people solo them... It's an unintended consequence of power creep. Also, solo'ing has been around since Vanilla.

Again, I will bring you Might and Magic example. You aren't supposed to go and solo game, that's why you are given party. However you can solo any dungeon if you reach high enough level (and MM barely had any level cap). Was it because game was intended to be played in one character? Or maybe it was because characters naturally progressed in power, so formerly dangerous beholders became like dust under feet for them? This is one of main perks of RPG - seeing application of character's power in older dungeons/locations with various fun challenges around it, like same solo challenges in party-based games.

Non-current raids are just like that - dungeons which we outleveled and outgeared long time ago.

[jbombard]

The fact that Blizzard felt the need to address it, means that it is a real issue. This alone probably isn't enough to warrant the squish, but at least it's a real issue that the squish would solve.

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Because raids are released with the intent that people solo them... It's an unintended consequence of power creep. Also, solo'ing has been around since Vanilla.

If they didn't want people to solo old raids, why remove the requirement to be in a raid group to enter them. That is a change made specifically because they want to make it easier for people to solo old raids.

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I will answer as well. There were CRPG series like DTU, Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale, which I tried to play after being spoiled by fluidity of Might and Magic and some jRPGs. It was a bad feeling, not seeing any upgrades from what you find at start of game till late in the game, getting like 1 level per several hours, which randomly increased your HP, increase could be even in 1 HP, and then suddenly you meet level cap (which was around 7 in BG I) without even getting a taste of any character progression...snip...

Well everyone has different tastes, but BG1, BG2, and Planescape Torment are considered some of the best RPGs of all time by many people. Icewind Dale series lacks the story elements that makes the other games really strong and tends to be more of cult/niche favorite.

[Aquamonkey]

If they didn't want people to solo old raids, why remove the requirement to be in a raid group to enter them. That is a change made specifically because they want to make it easier for people to solo old raids.

Just because they've made concessions to accommodate this niche gameplay that has emerged due to power creep, doesn't mean raids were ever meant to be solo'd.

Blizzard often bends their game design to accommodate unintended gameplay. Take H Rag for example. The encounter was intended to have people rotate in and out of the frost patches. But due to a slight oversight, people could put their entire raid in it without triggering a Magma Geyser. What did Blizzard do? They removed the Magma Geyser trigger from the encounter so people could just stack up.