new renewing mist glyph

[twinkleblur]

renewing mist is a great spell but I think..it could use a tweak..so before I put this on the forums I would love monk feed back.

here goes....I think renewing mist needs another glyph that goes like this "your renewing mist now hits 2 additional targets at the cost of 25% reduced healing. now before I get this is dumb or something hear me out...a healing monk just realized this makes uplift to heal more...any comments to this? I think its a good idea not too over powered for either pvp or pve.

[Inthislzon]

Blizzard is not letting monks blanket everyone with ReM due to uplift mostly. ReM itself is not the "problem"

Assuming uplift heals for 40k, crits already accounted for, you are looking at ~200k HPS just from hitting ReM on CD (target doesn't matter), uplift when available, and soothing at every other time. And that's assumming ReM heals for 0 (not the case) and uplift heals for 40k crits averaged (also not the case).

That's why it's not happening.

[TheWindWalker]

If you remember, it used to hit four total targets to begin with. They decided that was way too good and just sped up the tick rate and took away a jump.

[Cyriaa]

Blizzard is not letting monks blanket everyone with ReM due to uplift mostly. ReM itself is not the "problem"

Assuming uplift heals for 40k, crits already accounted for, you are looking at ~200k HPS just from hitting ReM on CD (target doesn't matter), uplift when available, and soothing at every other time. And that's assumming ReM heals for 0 (not the case) and uplift heals for 40k crits averaged (also not the case).

That's why it's not happening.

Blizz allows it in 10 man, why not 25?

MW are a much better healer in 10 man environments than in 25 man basically for this reason.

[Solial]

Blizz allows it in 10 man, why not 25?

MW are a much better healer in 10 man environments than in 25 man basically for this reason.

Prayer of healing heals 1 group in 10 and 1 group in 25, same concept. 10 man has 2 healers, 25 man has 5 healers depending on fight it will change. The healing output for each class is the same in all of them. Why do you think cooldowns like tranq were buffed?
How about revival doing 150% more healing in 25 man how it hits 15 more people?

[Cyriaa]

How about no? Revival hits like a wet noodle.

Renewing Mists can cover at most 12 targets (with TFT). That's 120% of a 10 man raid. But that's only 48% of a 25 man raid. So when you uplift in a 10 man raid you're healing 100% of the raid, whereas you're healing less than half in a 25 man. Considering revival is on a 3 min CD, Uplift has no CD but TFT has 45 sec CD AND uplift accounts for most of your healing I think it's safe to say 10 man MW have it pretty nice.
So no, what you're saying is just wrong.

[Geodew]

I'm definitely defending Blizzard on this one... (or rather at least the current state is better than 100% 25m coverage, but it needs changes)

Blizz allows it in 10 man, why not 25?

MW are a much better healer in 10 man environments than in 25 man basically for this reason.

Because that would be ridiculous unrivaled HPS. Uplift heals 400k average on 6 people already, so on 25 people plus all the ReM, burst would be ridiculous and for 25% uptime or something? Even if Blizz ever did that, we would be balanced around such healing capability, so when we didn't have TFT up we'd suck. It would also make 10vs25 much harder to balance for MW. 25s doesn't cover the whole raid, but with many more co-healers I don't see why you would necessarily need to as much as a 10m healer would (though of course it's still not good and makes you feel less useful, and that's fixable). Additionally, you already have compensation in the fact that TFT is already 40% more raw HPS in 25m.

That problem I presume you're trying to solve, where you want to always be able to help heal random-target damage, has much, much better solutions that they can implement in WoD with big changes like new spells or spell mechanic changes that won't cause massive HPS disparity across raid sizes, as this kind of change you suggest would.

Prayer of healing heals 1 group in 10 and 1 group in 25, same concept. 10 man has 2 healers, 25 man has 5 healers depending on fight it will change. The healing output for each class is the same in all of them. Why do you think cooldowns like tranq were buffed?
How about revival doing 150% more healing in 25 man how it hits 15 more people?

Raid cooldowns and raid cooldowns only are *purposefully* stronger in 25 because they must in order to keep up in strength with cooldowns that don't do raw healing, such as Power Word: Barrier and Rallying Cry or even Spirit Link Totem. Personally, I think they should have lowered the power of those %age-based cooldowns instead, as it seems 25m just becomes "fill every hard part of the fight with a cooldown" because you have so many powerful ones. (Click for bonus reading content! :P)

Some abilities like Halo and Divine Star they wanted to give 6-person Diminishing Returns but did not due to technical limitations related to how the spell works. Then they removed DR on the talents in that same talent tier so they stay competitive in 25m. That's a technical limitation, though, not a design intent.

Chi Torpedo had a DR added because RJW and Xuen do not get stronger in 25m (except maybe Xuen if 25m has more adds, but I'm not sure if they do that too frequently anymore). Though this makes Monks jealous, so long as they are balanced around that fact, it should not be a problem. What I *do* have a problem with is that this glitched CT to crap (hello healing myself 7 times with one CT!), which makes it inconsistent and still too strong for its talent tier, and encourages weird stacking behavior, and they didn't seem to care. All the devs said was "not sure MW needs buffs right now."

How about no? Revival hits like a wet noodle.

You totally missed his point, here.

Renewing Mists can cover at most 12 targets (with TFT). That's 120% of a 10 man raid. But that's only 48% of a 25 man raid. So when you uplift in a 10 man raid you're healing 100% of the raid, whereas you're healing less than half in a 25 man. Considering revival is on a 3 min CD, Uplift has no CD but TFT has 45 sec CD AND uplift accounts for most of your healing I think it's safe to say 10 man MW have it pretty nice.
So no, what you're saying is just wrong.

By that logic, as Toxiel points out, Disc should suck in 25m because their PoH hits only 20% of the raid instead of 50%. So no, what you're saying is just wrong. It's illogical. If you want a buff, ask for a buff, not a redesign. I think you're not saying what you mean, which (at least this is what other 25m MWers say) is that 10m MWers have more control over their healing in a sense, which is already a frustratingly low amount of control, and then 25m MWers have even less than that. I agree that this is a problem, but your "fix" is an awful one. That's not a "raw HPS" problem, and as I said above, has much, much better solutions that don't affect raw HPS balance negatively.

[TheWindWalker]

Are we really having a "10m versus 25m healing" discussion when we're switching to 20m only the next time our class is touched to begin with?

[Geodew]

Are we really having a "10m versus 25m healing" discussion when we're switching to 20m only the next time our class is touched to begin with?

Yep! :P

Really, I said this somewhere else already, but "Mythic is 20m only" is not an excuse to totally and completely abandon the balance of 10-ish-man LFR/Flex/Normal. Obviously Mythic should be considered as the top priority, but if there is a solution to "lack of controlled healing" that makes MW HPS vary wildly by raid size, it is probably not the best solution, and it mucks with spec balance at other raid sizes and difficulties tremendously. That's my bottom line.

I personally like the "new spell shifts all X ReM to lowest X raid members" idea. It could have a mana cost, chi cost, GCD cost, or any combination of those. Only drawback to such a solution is +1 button bloat. Well, the only one that I've realized.

[TheWindWalker]

I personally like the "new spell shifts all X ReM to lowest X raid members" idea. It could have a mana cost, chi cost, GCD cost, or any combination of those. Only drawback to such a solution is +1 button bloat. Well, the only one that I've realized.

If they did that, I'd suggest removing Healing Orb (the ground targeted one, obviously) and replacing it with that and giving Windwalker and Brewmaster Surging Mist so we wouldn't be the only hybrid without our "Flash Heal."

[Geodew]

If they did that, I'd suggest removing Healing Orb (the ground targeted one, obviously) and replacing it with that and giving Windwalker and Brewmaster Surging Mist so we wouldn't be the only hybrid without our "Flash Heal."

Agreed. Healing Sphere is way awkward to use.

[mjolnrik]

Awkward but still a nice healing spell. In pve i tend to only use it to heal myself but clicking a keybind and the ground is so much faster than getting a surging mist up and its saved me lots of times. Im not much of a pvper but from what ive seen it helps alot with survival there too. Take away healing sphere and self healing would become alot harder

[Keiyra]

Renewing Mists can cover at most 12 targets (with TFT). That's 120% of a 10 man raid. But that's only 48% of a 25 man raid. So when you uplift in a 10 man raid you're healing 100% of the raid, whereas you're healing less than half in a 25 man.

His point though is in 10 man, you are either 50% or 33% of the healing team. In a 25 man you are anywhere from 25% to 17% of the healing team (usually 20%). As such your abilities by themselves are not expected to heal the entire raid in a 25 man format, the way they can in 10 man. All healers behave the same with with the exception of 3 min CDs (which scale from 10->25), and Priest tier 90, which don't DR or cap (OP). Everything else either dr's, or caps, such that you have less coverage or less healing in 25s because there are more healers there to help you do it.

As mentioned in posts above, this becomes a less of an issue with mythic being only 20 man. (it still exists for non mythic raiding, but that's probably not what blizz balances around)

Hopefully they do tweek Rem and Uplift becuase it needs work, Monk was so much fun, want to keep enjoying it

[Geodew]

Awkward but still a nice healing spell. In pve i tend to only use it to heal myself but clicking a keybind and the ground is so much faster than getting a surging mist up and its saved me lots of times. Im not much of a pvper but from what ive seen it helps alot with survival there too. Take away healing sphere and self healing would become alot harder

Yes, I know it's good. That's part of the problem. If it was bad, no one would care about it, right? Lol :P

They should remove it and give us something else for single-target burst, because what do you do when someone who already has several seconds of Enveloping on them is taking heavy damage and your chi is full? There's nothing good to spend it on, and Surging is pretty expensive, which will be a problem in WoD when they fix "infinite mana." Enter Healing Sphere: problem solved, sort of.

Basically, I'm suggesting Blizz remove Healing Sphere and give us a targeted alternative or change the way the SooM-EnvM-SM combo works, maybe like SooM&SM do extra healing if you're at full chi or something. I haven't sat down to think if it's fixable without a new button.

- - - Updated - - -

Renewing Mists can cover at most 12 targets (with TFT).

14* by the way.

[Darkener]

The ReM+Uplift scaling fix for 25man should NOT take up a glyph slot. It should be like the other AoE spells that adjust for 25. Something like:

In 25-man your ReM will travel to an additional target, however, your Uplift will only heal up to 12 low-health targets.

or

In 25-man your Uplift will heal up to 12 targets, and your TFT+Uplift will instead spread ReM to all party/raid members within 100yards but sets the duration to 6s.

[Cyriaa]

I'd rather see fistweaving be viable for a decent amount of AE to be honest.

I'd really like to see blizz do something like SM style being single target focussed with AE capability and FW being AE focussed with single target capability.

[Totaltotemic]

Yep! :P

Really, I said this somewhere else already, but "Mythic is 20m only" is not an excuse to totally and completely abandon the balance of 10-ish-man LFR/Flex/Normal. Obviously Mythic should be considered as the top priority, but if there is a solution to "lack of controlled healing" that makes MW HPS vary wildly by raid size, it is probably not the best solution, and it mucks with spec balance at other raid sizes and difficulties tremendously. That's my bottom line.

I personally like the "new spell shifts all X ReM to lowest X raid members" idea. It could have a mana cost, chi cost, GCD cost, or any combination of those. Only drawback to such a solution is +1 button bloat. Well, the only one that I've realized.

At the same time you'd have to "balance" 30 man heroic as well. It's much easier to simply not really care and assume that any huge imbalances will be solved by the ability to simply add another member to the raid or have someone switch a spec (which will be very easy for sub-mythic difficulties because you don't really need the right secondary stats for normal modes today). It's either that or all healers become restricted to having their heals be balanced across 21 different raid sizes, which will probably not happen.

[Geodew]

At the same time you'd have to "balance" 30 man heroic as well. It's much easier to simply not really care ..... It's either that or all healers become restricted to having their heals be balanced across 21 different raid sizes, which will probably not happen.

Saying it's "21 different raid sizes" is overcomplicating it, and I think you know it :P. Balance at 30 (if it happens, for anyone else reading who's confused see the front page news) will likely not be that far off from 25, whereas 10 can be WAY off easily. I strongly believe, even as someone whose guild is seemingly going to up to 20 people, that game balance for LFR/Flex casuals and Normal casuals/softcores/whatever should not be completely forsaken just because Mythic is 20m only. Since only balance at 20m needs to be perfect, this is NOT hard and I don't see why you'd make it out to be. It only needs to be not-awful.

...assume that any huge imbalances will be solved by the ability to simply add another member to the raid or have someone switch a spec (which will be very easy for sub-mythic difficulties because you don't really need the right secondary stats for normal modes today).

You're failing to put yourself in the shoes of a normal (or flex/lfr) raider here IMO.

First, some of these players play with a group of friends and don't want to add Sir RandomPUG to get the fight down because they didn't have a warlock for warlock portals, or one of their healer's specs totally sucks for some fight in 10-15m, or whatever.

Second, many of these players also do not KNOW any other spec because they're new or don't care to learn it. They should ideally not feel like Blizzard has forsaken their class or spec to appease more hardcore players.

Third, when your guild isn't a guild that can get 14/14H even with some time, having your gear optimal DOES make a difference in your guild's ability to get bosses down. When your DPS (and the DPS of your raiders) is at 65-90% of optimal because you're just not that good, you need that extra bit of DPS to meet enrages and burst requirements. It's not ALL mechanics unless your raiders put out good numbers, which may be the case for you and your guild, but likely is not the case for raid groups struggling with the fights in question.

[Incredibale]

How about no? Revival hits like a wet noodle.

Renewing Mists can cover at most 12 targets (with TFT). That's 120% of a 10 man raid. But that's only 48% of a 25 man raid. So when you uplift in a 10 man raid you're healing 100% of the raid, whereas you're healing less than half in a 25 man. Considering revival is on a 3 min CD, Uplift has no CD but TFT has 45 sec CD AND uplift accounts for most of your healing I think it's safe to say 10 man MW have it pretty nice.
So no, what you're saying is just wrong.

Revival is the best healing CD in the history of this game. People bring at least one monk to 25 mans for this reason

[Deleted]

Revival is the best healing CD in the history of this game. People bring at least one monk to 25 mans for this reason

Wat. You aren't serious right?