Good news! Shaman mobility in the works!

[Tiberria]

Apparently, Celestalon is completely tonedeaf to the almost universal concerns about both Shaman mobility and the garbage that is the L45 talent tier.

No, we're happy with Shamans having a totem tier, and see it getting decent usage, despite loudness from a few people.

What is 'par'? Should everyone be exactly equal in their movement capabilities?

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...22673275346944

[Rafal]

Apparently, Celestalon is completely tonedeaf to the almost universal concerns about both Shaman mobility and the garbage that is the L45 talent tier.

No, we're happy with Shamans having a totem tier, and see it getting decent usage, despite loudness from a few people.

What is 'par'? Should everyone be exactly equal in their movement capabilities?

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...22673275346944

o_o well of course people use the tier...how do you not use it? haha kinda a silly thing to say =P

[Tiberria]

On Hunters:

Hunters are balanced versus melee classes, not caster classes. Both groups, of course, are balanced against each other.

The main cast-on-move abilities for hunters are there to increase resource regeneration. It improves DPS as a secondary effect (since faster resource regeneration allows more shots). Casters DPS has negligible need for resource regeneration.

Final point that many people don't actually realize: Hunter shots can be parried from in front, and this mechanic is not disappearing in WoD. It's one of the reasons Hunters have the mobility of melee classes: to get behind the boss. This is a concern casters do not have. It's also a concern raid leaders hardly ever give a shit about when assigning positions on boss fights.

That is a ridiculous argument. It is completely ridiculous for hunters to be "balanced as melee" - you have the option to hit targets from 40 yards out with your full DPS rotation. That is a fundamental definition of what ranged DPS is, and a fundamental definition of what melee DPS is NOT. The shots being parried from the front isn't a relevant justification for being "balanced like a melee"; you can still shoot the boss from 40 yards behind it - unlike a melee DPS. It might be a relevant argument if there are specific fight mechanics that make it impossible to be behind the boss; but the solution to that would be to turn off parries on those bosses.

[Kalcheus]

That is a ridiculous argument. It is completely ridiculous for hunters to be "balanced as melee" - you have the option to hit targets from 40 yards out with your full DPS rotation. That is a fundamental definition of what ranged DPS is, and a fundamental definition of what melee DPS is NOT. The shots being parried from the front isn't a relevant justification for being "balanced like a melee"; you can still shoot the boss from 40 yards behind it - unlike a melee DPS. It might be a relevant argument if there are specific fight mechanics that make it impossible to be behind the boss; but the solution to that would be to turn off parries on those bosses.

They do turn off parries on bosses like that (Ultraxion for example).

BTW, I'm explaining, not arguing. It's a reality, not a debate.

[Tiberria]

Apparently, the devs also think changing Totemic Restoration to Totemic Persistence is an example of how they are paying close attention and addressing Shaman concerns with the T45 tier. Never mind the fact that the change was intended as a PvP nerf.

[Kalcheus]

Apparently, the devs also think changing Totemic Restoration to Totemic Persistence is an example of how they are paying close attention and addressing Shaman concerns with the T45 tier. Never mind the fact that the change was intended as a PvP nerf.

I love love LOVE Totemic Persistence. They're not removing it, are they?

[Tiberria]

They do turn off parries on bosses like that (Ultraxion for example).

BTW, I'm explaining, not arguing. It's a reality, not a debate.

So, if they turn off parries on bosses where you can't stand at range behind the boss, that removes that as being a relevant justification for hunters to be treated as melee. They shouldn't balance a class around your tank being an idiot and not facing the boss away from the ranged group.

[Kalcheus]

So, if they turn off parries on bosses where you can't stand at range behind the boss, that removes that as being a relevant justification for hunters to be treated as melee. They shouldn't balance a class around your tank being an idiot and not facing the boss away from the ranged group.

I think you're overly focusing on the parrying thing. It's not the only thing going on. Also, have you fought Malkorok?

[Protoman]

Apparently, Celestalon is completely tonedeaf to the almost universal concerns about both Shaman mobility and the garbage that is the L45 talent tier.

No, we're happy with Shamans having a totem tier, and see it getting decent usage, despite loudness from a few people.

What is 'par'? Should everyone be exactly equal in their movement capabilities?

https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...22673275346944

I am equally frustrated. I was trying to argue too (I'm Jay Sing on Twitter)..... and Celestalon's replies upset me. How can they possibly think the T45 talents are fine as is? Its almost the equivalent of a hunter tier that is only about their traps. Our totems are basically just a few tools and cd's we use, and while a "signature" of the class, are not nearly as important enough to devote a whole talent tier to.

I feel their mentality is warped regarding totems. They hold totems in a higher regard then they actually are, as their important for shaman has been reduced each time in past few xpacs. I could see it making sense if totems were somehow a resource, since you see talent tiers devoted to things like regen holy power for pallys, or rune/RP regen for DK's, or chi for monks.... but that does NOT work for totems and shaman.

Very few Shaman even use Totemic Persistance, almost everyone uses CotE or TP. Totemic Projection feels like it should have been baseline to start with like trap launcher to help us fully utilize totems because of their restrictions and position requirements. The tier needs a total revamp.

[Tiberria]

People should just continue to slam them with feedback on Twitter. They are actually trying to argue that the dislike of the L45 talent tier is just "loudness" and "noise" and not a legitimate complaint. The only way to fix that is for as many people as possible to keep sending them that feedback.

[Deleted]

You know what's tiring? The fact that we have to bunch up and "slam them with feedback". The fact that we have to fight to get good changes in. It's a new expansion. It is supposed to EXPAND the game. You would assume it's only natural we're looking forward to exciting changes broadening our gameplay experience. Instead, we have to convince the devs adding ANYTHING is a good idea. Wow, just wow.

[Deleted]

Tbh thats pretty dissapointing. Those tweets just blatantly show that they've closed their minds to this issue now.

[Omanley]

On Hunters:

Hunters are balanced versus melee classes, not caster classes. Both groups, of course, are balanced against each other.

The main cast-on-move abilities for hunters are there to increase resource regeneration. It improves DPS as a secondary effect (since faster resource regeneration allows more shots). Casters DPS has negligible need for resource regeneration.

Final point that many people don't actually realize: Hunter shots can be parried from in front, and this mechanic is not disappearing in WoD. It's one of the reasons Hunters have the mobility of melee classes: to get behind the boss. This is a concern casters do not have. It's also a concern raid leaders hardly ever give a shit about when assigning positions on boss fights.

While I understand the frustration at the loss of Shaman mobility, Blizzard is doing this across all caster classes. They're going to adjust fights in the future to recognize that casters will have less mobility.

And actual dps numbers are the last thing anybody should be worrying about until we're deep in beta.

1.) Parrying wont happen much in pvp though. Where's the disadvantage of hunters there? Also hunters have auto shot, instant shots/dots as well as casted shot on the move, as well as a melee remote control pet. Hunters are completely unaffected by movement. I think the sole disadvantage atm would be aimed shot for MM (not sure about that part though).

2) Hunters aren't balance vs melees. Melees need melee range, casters dont. Melees need to chase and gap close, hunters dont. Melee suffer uptime losses when being kited, hunters dont.
In the ways their damage works, hunters are like melee dps,yes. But in Their playstyle, they are ranged dps. Hunters get the advantages of both sides, and their only disadvantage is that they have to be behind monsters in pve? Give me a break! You call that balance?

3) And my guess is that you do not consider pvp, like, at all. Pve is about raw numbers. As long as your turret dps is strong enough, your movement dps does not have to be good is what you think. WRONG. In pvp, if you're a turret, you die. End of story. Elemental has always been a punching bag and the easiest caster to tunnel because of the worst kiting, cc and survival utility. Prio to lb on the move they were the most hurt spec in terms of dpson the move.

Ele in wotlk was basically bloodlust, lavaburst crit, chain lightning => lolwin caster cleave. Outside of that elemental has always been the most bland caster, just like enh has always been the most bland melee. Mobile lb was a terrible bandaid, but it was better than getting nothing. Ele wont even be getting FrS on seperate cd like I pointed out was needed even during mobile lb times. It was the biggest thing making the loss up even for a little bit. But no. No good kiting tools for the least mobile caster dps.

How can you blame ele shamans being /butthurt about this? I can do nothing but feel for them. There was never a caster easier for me to dominate as enh (and enh wasn't a particularly strong melee in pvp, ever).

Pvp, man. Pvp is the biggest issue here. Ele will be screwed there, period.

- - - Updated - - -

People should just continue to slam them with feedback on Twitter. They are actually trying to argue that the dislike of the L45 talent tier is just "loudness" and "noise" and not a legitimate complaint. The only way to fix that is for as many people as possible to keep sending them that feedback.

Most of shaman community complaining = loudness from a few people
Feels like blizzard's perception for years. Good that they're reminding us of that we cant expect shit. Honestly, I dont believe that any amount of complaining will help.
They know that there are sooper-dooper-excellent-flying-across-the-scene guys and on the other end of the spectrum there are slow pokes (us). The slow pokes ask for a buff into middle ground, and for that blizz expects justification, while really they just dance around the truth and at the end we're at fault for not providing enough feedback despite them ignoring it anyway, dismissing it as noice and choosing to answer only answers they can warp in their favor.

[vykas]

I would say that complaining won't fix our issue--though sound logical arguments that answer the "why" will. If we can answer why we need it, in a way that goes beyond the "but he has it; I want it too!" argument then we'll stand a better chance.

[Deleted]

I would say that complaining won't fix our issue--though sound logical arguments that answer the "why" will. If we can answer why we need it, in a way that goes beyond the "but he has it; I want it too!" argument then we'll stand a better chance.

Restoration spec is getting nerfed across the board because it's "smarthealing" is superior to other classes, that's fine and we should understand the reason. Restoration spec has inferior mobility to right about ANYONE in the game (DK's come to mind to match the level of slugishness). But this way around, WE have to provide the reason for buffs.

Blizzard announces they do not want so widespread cast-on-the-move and remove... just the lightning bolt. Rest of similar talents/abilities of other classes remains the same. Requests of compensation in the mobility department (30% GW doesn't seem to cut it in the land of Blinks and 70%, 6-8s sprints everywhere) meet a wall of "but why should we do that, what makes you need it?"

Do you start to see the trend? And the obvious double-standard?

[Omanley]

I would say that complaining won't fix our issue--though sound logical arguments that answer the "why" will. If we can answer why we need it, in a way that goes beyond the "but he has it; I want it too!" argument then we'll stand a better chance.

The only problem there is that they have to respond to such posts, which they dont. Explaining the problem behind the suggestion requires space. Space that Twitter does not offer, unless you're willing to post 50 posts chained to another.

My take on it was to write an extensive post here and post the link to celestalon on twitter, so he would read it and get his /why

Apparently, he didn't read it, and the likely reason is: Because they do not plan to increase our mobility, no matter how we complain, explain and justify it.
They simply dont want to, and make excuses to keep their front of actually listening to feedback. That's how it looks to me anyway.


I mean, think about it: Why would a spec/class with low mobility ask for a buff in mobility? The answer is easy enough: Because he needs it to be competitive. Enhance is easily kited and has low uptime, because of bad mobility. Anyone who does pvp on a decent level knows this.
Because of low mobility, enh does little damage overall as well as selfheal and mana regeneration. It all needs uptime. We have to rely on short, burst cd windows to kill (and prior to MoP we did not even have those). In WoD, cd stacking will receive a nerf as well as our cds themselves. You can expect a severe drop in Asc damage and an incoming nerf to FET for enh at least. Enh will miss their kill-windows and be just overall low uptime medium sustained melee dps.

In short: no threat to others.

It's the same for elemental. Why would ele, with its turret design, ask for better mobility? Because it is inferior, simple as that.

Wether you look at arena rankings or use your common sense, it is apparent that dps shamans are weak in pvp, and the prime reason is mobility (there's others, but mobility is worst).

Blizz isn't dumb. They know the game they have managed for 10 years well enough. They know that enh/ele suck in high ranked pvp. They know that we are making suggestions to have that changed.
Their question might just as well have been though: Why does Elemental or Enhancement have to be competitive to other specialisations with the same role?" The game's not broken with these setups, so no need to make changes.

[Andyclan]

1.) Parrying wont happen much in pvp though. Where's the disadvantage of hunters there? Also hunters have auto shot, instant shots/dots as well as casted shot on the move, as well as a melee remote control pet. Hunters are completely unaffected by movement. I think the sole disadvantage atm would be aimed shot for MM (not sure about that part though).

2) Hunters aren't balance vs melees. Melees need melee range, casters dont. Melees need to chase and gap close, hunters dont. Melee suffer uptime losses when being kited, hunters dont.
In the ways their damage works, hunters are like melee dps,yes. But in Their playstyle, they are ranged dps. Hunters get the advantages of both sides, and their only disadvantage is that they have to be behind monsters in pve? Give me a break! You call that balance?

3) And my guess is that you do not consider pvp, like, at all. Pve is about raw numbers. As long as your turret dps is strong enough, your movement dps does not have to be good is what you think. WRONG. In pvp, if you're a turret, you die. End of story. Elemental has always been a punching bag and the easiest caster to tunnel because of the worst kiting, cc and survival utility. Prio to lb on the move they were the most hurt spec in terms of dpson the move.

Ele in wotlk was basically bloodlust, lavaburst crit, chain lightning => lolwin caster cleave. Outside of that elemental has always been the most bland caster, just like enh has always been the most bland melee. Mobile lb was a terrible bandaid, but it was better than getting nothing. Ele wont even be getting FrS on seperate cd like I pointed out was needed even during mobile lb times. It was the biggest thing making the loss up even for a little bit. But no. No good kiting tools for the least mobile caster dps.

How can you blame ele shamans being /butthurt about this? I can do nothing but feel for them. There was never a caster easier for me to dominate as enh (and enh wasn't a particularly strong melee in pvp, ever).

Pvp, man. Pvp is the biggest issue here. Ele will be screwed there, period.

Yeah pretty much this. Playing ele in random BGs and world pvp is fun, but arenas? No thanks. It's absolutely pathetic how unviable they are in arena. All they ever brought was BL, and of course that was taken away. Anyone who has ever done arena as elemental knows this feeling.

Actually, I will say elemental wasn't THAT bad in 5's.... still not top pick though, and who does 5's anyway? =P

Oh and this is all pre MOP because I quit right before so I can't speak for the current xpac.

[Thelxi]

I really think people are overestimating other class' mobility, and underestimating Elemental's mobility relatively to those specs. Back before we had cast-while-moving LB, most of us were looking for a solution like taking Frost Shock off the shared shock CD, or something like this change. The cast-while-moving LB was WAY more than we ever needed, and I've been saying pretty much the entire time that it was a ridiculous amount of mobility.

As a caster, movement should be a choice, and one with consequences.

And before anyone says it, hunters aren't casters. They're ranged, but they follow a different ethic. They're more like a "ranged melee", if that made any sense (and I know it doesn't).

Whether you consider hunters casters or not, or whether Blizzard wants you to consider hunter ranged melee does NOT change the fact that hunters are both ranged AND spend a lot of their rotation CASTING. For a hunter to practically be a ranged melee they would have to be spamming instant casts, and they don't. They CAST.

[Kralljin]

Yeah pretty much this. Playing ele in random BGs and world pvp is fun, but arenas? No thanks. It's absolutely pathetic how unviable they are in arena. All they ever brought was BL, and of course that was taken away. Anyone who has ever done arena as elemental knows this feeling.

Actually, I will say elemental wasn't THAT bad in 5's.... still not top pick though, and who does 5's anyway? =P

Oh and this is all pre MOP because I quit right before so I can't speak for the current xpac.

I think you are speaking Cata only.

Because in Wotlk Elemental was quite strong in PvP.

[Deleted]

Because in Wotlk Elemental was quite strong in PvP.

You mean when a Lava Burst took half a health bar?

The same could be said about Enh, ever since it became viable in arena its primary objective was zerging someone down as fast as possible in the timewindow of CDs. Back then it was wolves and now its Ascendance.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q5pb-fEQhs