Rogue 6.0 patch notes

[rogueMatthias]

Not clear how they are going to achieve that but its clearly on their radar.

We'll have a new "Break sword in half to make a dagger" skill!

[Deleted]

Bliz usual Rogue logic. If one skill is too popular or good, rather than improve the others to the same level, just nerf that skill so its as good as the others!

I'm glad they've halved Crimson Tempest damage, Rogues have been using that FAR too much.

/facepalm

Use your brains people :

1) datamining mixed backstab and ambush damage in the previous build (ambush was 510% and backstab 340%, not the other way around obviously)
2)Even going from 380% (live) to 130% is not AS big of a nerf as it seems, because attack power increases weapon dps twice as much in WOD. That's why every %weapon damage attack seems "nerfed" in WOD, when it's not.

It's still a nerf tbh, should be something like 230% to deal the same damage as on live, but ambush (so your burst) isn't nerfed and the (huge) buff to rupture more than makes up for it in pvp (rogue multidot anyone ?)

[CasualNoob]

2)Even going from 380% (live) to 130% is not AS big of a nerf as it seems, because attack power increases weapon dps twice as much in WOD. That's why every %weapon damage attack seems "nerfed" in WOD, when it's not.

No. This kind of skills use not tooltip weapon damage, but weapon damage with AP bonus (which is 1dps for 14AP).

[xezar]

Celestalon said on twitter:
The non-daggers change was really confusing to people; was expected to be viable. Found a better solution instead.
Better solution is to make it much more reliable for you to have daggers available.

Not clear how they are going to achieve that but its clearly on their radar.

/groan

Why do stupid people think that and ruin it for the rest of us...duh it's not supposed to be optimal. But I was going to do it anyways since I just am really sick of their generally pathetic dagger models.

Of course, the other option would've kindly been to make swords just as viable, which also solves any issue of swords not being used and improving rogue coolness by a factor of 10. But of course, they'd rather go the lame route and make us fight with casters for a dagger instead of other melee for swords too. And of course he's taking out of his ass in making daggers more available, don't see it happening.

If only monks showed their weapons while fighting, but they just fist things or kick things in 95% of their animations. And Enh Shammy probably can't mog axes into swords I'd guess since they can't use swords period...yeah I'm over the whole damage dealing trend, I just want a non-plate class that looks cool doing dps.

[Deleted]

No. This kind of skills use not tooltip weapon damage, but weapon damage with AP bonus (which is 1dps for 14AP).

Wrong : in WOD, it is 1 dps for 3.5 AP not 14. So considering that 1 agi gives only 1 AP in WOD instead of 2, the dps gain from AP is twice as big as on live. (1 dps for 3.5 agility instead of 1 dps for 7 agi on live)

Hence the need to edit every weapon based skill (and double the effectiveness of AP based skills).

[Wow]

Few changes the front page left out rather than making enh prem something good they changed it to http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/157704-...er-of-subtlety .
For combat http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/157645-...rimson-tempest
This seems to be making it worse in actual use. Unless long living adds are a big thing in wod.

[fierydemise]

Few changes the front page left out rather than making enh prem something good they changed it to http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/157704-...er-of-subtlety .
For combat http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/157645-...rimson-tempest
This seems to be making it worse in actual use. Unless long living adds are a big thing.

The CT perk probably works like the old rupture glyph, it increases the number of ticks by 50% so it should be a damage increase. How useful it is is a bit less clear, adds that live for 18 seconds aren't particularly common, even adds that live for 12 seconds aren't that common.

[Mafic]

Few changes the front page left out rather than making enh prem something good they changed it to http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/157704-...er-of-subtlety .
For combat http://beta.wowdb.com/spells/157645-...rimson-tempest
This seems to be making it worse in actual use. Unless long living adds are a big thing.

I think they are trying to keep Crimson Tempest relevant for Combat but still make it different how it is used compared to the other specs. Personally I have stated many times before that Crimson Tempest with how Combat seems out of place but I will reserve judgement to see the direction they are going with.

[Sesshou]

Celestalon said on twitter:
The non-daggers change was really confusing to people; was expected to be viable. Found a better solution instead.
Better solution is to make it much more reliable for you to have daggers available.

Not clear how they are going to achieve that but its clearly on their radar.

There really wasn't a reason it shouldn't have been viable... they could have at least aimed for as close as TG and SMF. I hope they're reverting the dagger buffs to SS now as well.

[truevalon]

They're only in a good place because it's the end of an Xpac. This happens every single expansion ever. We're craptastic in the beginning due to secondary stat dependency and gradually build usefulness as the content progresses so that by the very end, we're finally dependable and everyone immediately forgets the last year and a half, claiming that rogues don't need change or updating because they're "fine."

It's never directly addressed by Blizzard but it's always the same.

This here has been the truth for the past expansions. Needless to say I am extremly disappointed in the recent changes. Personally I loathe playing combat and the idea of being able to play mutilate with swords was making me want to dust off my old main and be a rogue again. Even better would be if they had made sub with swords viable again. Sadly though Blizzard seems to ignore the wishes of the community when it comes to rogues.

[High Marshal Sigismund]

Why don't they just make Subtletly a spec that needs a Sword/Axe/Mace in the mainhand, and a dagger in the offhand? Would create for interesting gameplay. Backstab using the offhand dagger, Ambush using both weapons, kind of like a sexier Mutilate. Hemorrhage using the mainhand and stacks Hemorrhage unlocking a Backstab. Dunno, just feel like gameplay could be a lot more interesting.

[Challenge]

is combat spec going to stop sucking?

... Its the top rogue spec atm for pve?......

[SynergyDarkstar]

Why don't they just make Subtletly a spec that needs a Sword/Axe/Mace in the mainhand, and a dagger in the offhand? Would create for interesting gameplay. Backstab using the offhand dagger, Ambush using both weapons, kind of like a sexier Mutilate. Hemorrhage using the mainhand and stacks Hemorrhage unlocking a Backstab. Dunno, just feel like gameplay could be a lot more interesting.

Really, at this point gameplay limitations based around weapon types is archaic. From specialization talents going away to leveling your weapons going away to xmog, it's clear that the overarching intent has become a purely aesthetic concern for the vast majority of classes. Either what weapon you wield means something and it's an interesting choice (a la DW vs 1H Frost DKs, TG vs SMF Warrs, 1H vs 2H Monks) or it doesn't and there's no point on weapon restrictions.

At this point what they should do is change daggers to be 2.6 speed with appropriate damage and remove dagger weapon restrictions entirely. Grant the ability to use daggers to enh shamans and monks and have the weapon type groupings now be: Agi 1H, Agi 2H, Str 1H, Str 2H. Allow xmog into whatever weapon type your class can wield. Balance Mut/Sub accordingly.

And I might be wrong, but I remember a blue poster saying something as a reason why the WoD change was originally just swords and fists as opposed to everything is that "well you can't mutilate someone with an axe." How about you ask Lizzie Borden about that... :P

[Sassafrass]

Blizzard: "We want you to have more options. Swords and stuff!"
Rogues: "yay swords and stuff!"

Blizzard: "We're going to gimp you if you don't use daggers, but you can still use swords and stuff!"
Rogues: "That's.....cool I guess. Options!"

Blizzard "lol JK, just use daggers"
Rogues: "Why bother getting excited anymore"

[Deleted]

There really wasn't a reason it shouldn't have been viable... they could have at least aimed for as close as TG and SMF. I hope they're reverting the dagger buffs to SS now as well.

If you mouseover Sinister Strike on the front page it shows that that's now gone, too.

[Kael]

Moved a whole bunch of T17 tier appearance discussion to the appropriate thread. Sorry if I missed anything. Time for sleep.

[Sesshou]

If you mouseover Sinister Strike on the front page it shows that that's now gone, too.

Oh, you're right. Thats nice. Though I'd prefer to just be able to use whatever as whatever...

It is still 50 energy though... I was hoping they'd change it back and actually fix our capping during cds problem. 50 energy SS, especially at super low haste, just feels too damn slow.

[shadowboy]

The CT perk probably works like the old rupture glyph, it increases the number of ticks by 50% so it should be a damage increase. How useful it is is a bit less clear, adds that live for 18 seconds aren't particularly common, even adds that live for 12 seconds aren't that common.

I felt the up front damage was more useful than the bleed, still.. Celestalon's response to why the bleed confuses me.

The Combat CT change was so that you still use SnD in AoE, I believe.

The fallacies with that logic are twofold. 1: The DoT stacks so SnD weaving isn't necessarily encouraged. If you didn't weave it before, you won't now.
1: The mechanics of blade flurry and combat potency mandate the maintenance of SnD anyway, even in a full AoE rotation. CT really has no well defined value to combat with BF being full AoE and proccing poisons (the main factors of whether or not to choose CT over evis in the current game).

CT will serve no purpose to a combat rogue in a game where BF is full AoE and procs poisons. Evis will do more damage, proc MG (which is in turn made AoE by BF), which can proc CP. The bleed (which may or may not go full duration) just tips everything in favor of evis again.

[Msi]

Among some other changes to improve Rogue AoE damage, we made a couple of baseline changes, and added a few Draenor Perks that impacts their AoE.
Blade Flurry can now trigger poisons.

Tricks of the Trade now has no energy cost and no longer increases damage caused by the target by 15%.

Worth noting here is the removal of Ambidexterity. This was done to reduce the amount of damage coming from auto attacks for Combat Rogues. We’ve increased the damage of their active abilities to compensate and make them more rewarding.

To better balance the scaling rates and value of secondary stats for Subtlety, we reduced the power of their Sinister Calling passive ability.
Sinister Calling now increases Agility by 15% (down from 30%).

[Wow]

I was hoping the patch notes would explain "Better solution is to make it much more reliable for you to have daggers available." https://twitter.com/Celestalon/statu...65385591259136 a little better but guess not.

I somehow doubt they are just going to have tons of daggers in loot tables.