Stat squish - Is it final?

[Raiju]

It seems people forgot that we are now in our fifth expansion, and not in our first or second (TBC/Wrath). Even with a squish, you can't get these numbers 3-4 expansions later, unless you drastically reduce all levels (starting at level 1) and have nearly no increase in stats on gear to be able to stretch this from 1-100 instead of 1-70. It's just not possible unless you would completely rework pretty much the whole stat and maybe even combat system.

Except they showed quite clearly how it could work with an example graph (while a rough drawing was close enough to the actual numbers) - basically chopping off all the increased scaling so 1-45 ilvl increase would be same as 45-90, and that would put us at below 200 ilvl stats (on the old chart) and likely below 150 at the level 90 end. This would also fall in line with their level 90 boost and considering all previous content 'trivial' and unimportant to them.

Basically they advertised numbers between TBC and wrath in their example, they put in a system so that how much they squished was irrelevant for old content (pretty much) and then pushed the numbers down so we are doing cata dps with MoP health, instead of TBC-wrath dps with Wrath-cata health.

Simple to understand?

[Asmekiel]

Simple to understand?

Of course, but we all know it wasn't going to be that drastic. Seeing almost the same numbers at lvl 100 as at lvl 60, especially since it took almost 10 years to get there, simply isn't fun.

[Raiju]

Of course, but we all know it wasn't going to be that drastic. Seeing almost the same numbers at lvl 100 as at lvl 60, especially since it took almost 10 years to get there, simply isn't fun.

Clearly you didn't understand the post at all then, because you wouldn't even see level 70 numbers at level 100 - as soon as you hit 90 the curve continued into "new expansion" mode as it always does, giving you that... 'satisfying' increase?

Now I don't necessarily agree with the sharp edge (And feel some of the rough lines drop down a bit too low meaning the level 90 number should be over 100-150 ilvl), but this was what they first showed us iirc.

[The Kao]

Of course, but we all know it wasn't going to be that drastic. Seeing almost the same numbers at lvl 100 as at lvl 60, especially since it took almost 10 years to get there, simply isn't fun.

Only because you've been there. If you never had played WoW before WoD you wouldn't notice. That renders these complaints highly subjective and useless when trying to objectively improve the situation. But I'm intrigued, let's say you had to solve this problem without building layers of band aids, and "just leave it as it is" is not an option. What would you do?

[cremor]

Please stop that 32 bit nonsense. Of course a 32 bit PC/OS/program can use higher numbers. The only real difference is the amount of memory you can address.
Or do you really think back in the Windows 3.1x days you couldn't use numbers higher than 65k? (Windows 3.1x was a 16 bit OS).

[merli]

While this may be true, people are just ignoring the obvious...Boss Health Pools are exceeding the Max 32-bit Integer value. This is why we see several of them refill their HP during certain phases of the fights (Garrosh). Next expansion Boss HPs would be so high no one could play the game with a 32 bit system. Everyone would have to go 64-bit to play WoW. To prevent this Blizzard HAS to implement the stat squish.

That is not true. A 32-bit system is able to handle 64-bit variables. Or do you think before 64-bit system were available it was not possible to handle numbers bigger than 2.1 billion? Blizzard would need to refactor their code to use 64-bit long variables for health numbers. The only downside to this would be that 32-bit systems would take a little longer to compute numbers which are 64-bit long.
As far as I know Blizzard was afraid to change the variable of health in their databases. They said this would be difficult to change. But I have no clue about changing a database, so they could be right.

they didnt squish 500+ gear too much tho, there is still massive difference between 500 and 580 items, like double the stats, thats just between SMV and nagrand gear AND that doubles (quadruples in total from the WoD start) in another 80 ilevels too, all in one tier. I honestly think they should have squished MoP too and put everyone on an equal footing, give everyone 600ilev gear in the intro quests in BL and tanaan, that would be as powerful as 500 gear is now and dont make inflated power jumps. the end of first tier might have had gear on the current 580 level of stats instead of double that.

They are probably not squishing MoP content because they still want you to be able to get stronger after 6.0 goes live. Else someone in 450 gear would do the same damage as someone in 580 gear. This would also mean they would have lied about the frogs on the island and either the 450 guy or the 580 guy would not kill the frog in the same amount of time as before the squish.

[Marston]

Clearly you didn't understand the post at all then, because you wouldn't even see level 70 numbers at level 100 - as soon as you hit 90 the curve continued into "new expansion" mode as it always does, giving you that... 'satisfying' increase?

Now I don't necessarily agree with the sharp edge (And feel some of the rough lines drop down a bit too low meaning the level 90 number should be over 100-150 ilvl), but this was what they first showed us iirc.

It was only a first rough draft. Also, zhis graph still needs two more addons. I think we all pretty much knew that the whole leveling from 90-100 would again be exponential. If they would do something like shown in the graph, 1-100 being linear and then you would only get better at max level with each tier, we probably would have an even wider gap betwen freshly dinged 100s and players who raid the current tier content.

Also, at some points stats simply need some sort of growth. If stats would increas linear from 1-100, or even only 1-90, +1 at level 10 is fine. +1 at level 20 might be fine. +1 at level 90 is negligible. You simply need to get higher stats later on.

The only other thing were I have to say I disagree with Blizzard, I think they should have also squished MoP, not only 1-85. Pretty much make a complete reset with WoD. Then again, people would probably complain that their SoO Warforged Heroic gear has the same stats as the MSV LFR gear.

[Asmekiel]

Only because you've been there. If you never had played WoW before WoD you wouldn't notice. That renders these complaints highly subjective and useless when trying to objectively improve the situation. But I'm intrigued, let's say you had to solve this problem without building layers of band aids, and "just leave it as it is" is not an option. What would you do?

Considering the amount of people who never played WoW before that will try it because of the squish can probably be counted on one hand, those complaints are hardly useless. The current players are the only ones that will notice the change and are also the ones bringing in the money.

If you want to look at it objectively though, the squish is nothing more than a bandaid. The issue still exists, but won't be a problem anymore for 2-3 extra expansions. The only (near-)permanent solution is for Blizzard to update the engine.

[Deleted]

Was looking forward to WoTLK style HP and Damage

[Deleted]

So, we already know how much dps is going to increase between tier 1 WoD and the final tier? Care to point the way to a source for this?

No and that´s also not what i wrote. We know that it´s going to be linear till ~MoP and then it´s going to be exponential again because everything else doesn´t make sense with so many difficulties

[Raelbo]

I still don't get what the big deal is or why so many are concerned about this.

Obviously a stat squish became necessary, which is going to result in a bunch of numbers changing, but at the end of the day if you think of health pools as % bars, not much should really change. Why do the numbers themselves matter so much to people?

[Deleted]

I think it will work out perfectly fine. Remember that we'll still be level 90 for about 6 weeks before we can begin levelling again. In those few weeks we will grow accustomed to the stat squish at level 90 whereby stats will be like 80+, and then it will feel more natural once we start gearing up and reach 200+ at level 100.

[Bigbazz]

The stat squish isn't so much of a squish at all, I was expecting TBC numbers and we're already in Cataclysm numbers at entry level start expansion gear. Those who say we did 20k in WOTLK... We did 20k in WOTLK with BIS gear and a 30% raidwide damage buff at the end of the expansion, and a little more during the Pre-Cata patch.

Now we're doing 400k, 500k, 600k, 1million+ dps... so shit has got out of hand but the WOD stat squish is only taking us back to Cata levels, by the end of WOD we will be talking about another stat squish, at best we will get WOD + 1 expansion before they need to do it again.

[Vynestra]

I think the problem isn't that 90-100 is exponential, but that it's TOO exponential, they want too overboard. And unless they plan to squish every expansion (which could be a fix to make the past xpac linear rather than exponential) we're going to need a squish in 8.0 probably, with 7.0 having MoP high numbers again. While WoD keeps us at cata to low mop numbers.

The stat squish isn't so much of a squish at all, I was expecting TBC numbers and we're already in Cataclysm numbers at entry level start expansion gear. Those who say we did 20k in WOTLK... We did 20k in WOTLK with BIS gear and a 30% raidwide damage buff at the end of the expansion, and a little more during the Pre-Cata patch.

Now we're doing 400k, 500k, 600k, 1million+ dps... so shit has got out of hand but the WOD stat squish is only taking us back to Cata levels, by the end of WOD we will be talking about another stat squish, at best we will get WOD + 1 expansion before they need to do it again.

Pretty much this.

I actually did want them to squish to BC numbers, and then SLOWLY increase to wrath and then cata within like 4-5 xpacs. Instead this xpac will have cata numbers, and then the next xpac unless they REALLY curve the scaling will have mop numbers, they can still save next xpac after wod from being MoP numbers if they keep the exponential scaling to a minimum and end this xpac with like 50-60k dps, and end the following with maybe 90-100k, then the game would be on a steady course of smooth sailing.

[Deleted]

I still don't get what the big deal is or why so many are concerned about this.

Obviously a stat squish became necessary, which is going to result in a bunch of numbers changing, but at the end of the day if you think of health pools as % bars, not much should really change. Why do the numbers themselves matter so much to people?

Because some people (including me) have really been looking forward to a somewhat WotLk-esque experience, where all the numbers where somewhat more... catchable (?) if you know ´what I mean. The first time doing a 5-figure amount of damage feld pretty awesome, whereas in MOP, it was more like a MOOOOORE

It's just very personal, but for me it always felt strange having the amount of life with my bear a early-BC boss had. We're just still supposed to be "human" heroes after all...

[ReleaseDay]

Too much scaling, we never wanted it.

[Deleted]

they fucked up. they tried to compromise and they fucked up something as simple as a stat squish
the whiners who want to be super duper strong would attach a game shark to their hard drive if it means they could use uber leet cheat codes with wow

fuck them, they've got ADD, they're bad and they won't be around long anyway. squish properly, linearly, 1-cap

First: Language young man. Don't try to cover a lack of arguments by using what you heard on MTV. It doesn't make you sound tough, or experienced. Quite the opposite actually.

Second: No, they didn't "try to compromise". What you don't realize, is that numbers HAVE to grow exponentially within an expansion, as long as that expansion is relevant. If they don't, you have no gear-gating between raid tiers. If the boss of TierX+1 does only marginally higher (read: higher on a linear progression) damage than the one on TX, I can beat him in the gear I acquired for raiding TX (for example: dungeon blues), I only need to play a bit better, and maybe use one more healer in my setup.

Edit: inb4 "This is not true! You can put it higher on a linear scale as well!!!"
Well, yeah, of course you can. Only, then you make heroic gear from TX a prerequisite to raid normal mode TX+1. That's not the intended design goal. People who want to progress from TX nhc to TX+1 nhc should still be able to do that. The only way to do that, is to allow strength to grow exponentially.

yeah, ignore all the datamined shit that says we're going to triple our hp from fresh 100 to last tier of wod

Care to explain how exactly stat-values on the final Tier of WoD were datamined, if those tiers data is not accessible anywhere, and likely doesn't even exist as of now?

[Varabently]

You also have to consider they are squishing damage more than health. They have said for a while they wanted to keep health pools bigger so they don't need base resil and such.

Remember that right now in heroic gear you have 700k+ health at level 90, so now at level 100 you have 250k. That's quite a big difference. Imagine if they let health and such scale the same way from mop->wod, we would have probably 2 million health at level 100. So it's 1/8th of what we WOULD have had. That's a pretty big squish. Also, DPS is 1/10th what you can do at level 90 pre-squish.

Seems pretty substantial to me.

- - - Updated - - -

I think it will work out perfectly fine. Remember that we'll still be level 90 for about 6 weeks before we can begin levelling again. In those few weeks we will grow accustomed to the stat squish at level 90 whereby stats will be like 80+, and then it will feel more natural once we start gearing up and reach 200+ at level 100.

This is really true, but not everyone coming back to the game will have this month or 2 of experience with squished stats. What if they stopped a year ago and then come back after WOD is released? They will be in for a shock.

I'm not saying I would care, but it matters to some people.

- - - Updated - - -

Was looking forward to WoTLK style HP and Damage

What's this nostalgic need to see wotlk numbers? I don't get it. Is that 30k hp, 10k dps at end game some sweet spot in people's memories? I just don't follow.

Why is that better than TBC numbers? 10k hp and 2k dps?

[haxartus]

Why is that better than TBC numbers? 10k hp and 2k dps?

There is really no reason people should have more than 3-4k health. A 1000 damage crit felt really powerful once.

[Sarevokcz]

First: Language young man. Don't try to cover a lack of arguments by using what you heard on MTV. It doesn't make you sound tough, or experienced. Quite the opposite actually.

Second: No, they didn't "try to compromise". What you don't realize, is that numbers HAVE to grow exponentially within an expansion, as long as that expansion is relevant. If they don't, you have no gear-gating between raid tiers. If the boss of TierX+1 does only marginally higher (read: higher on a linear progression) damage than the one on TX, I can beat him in the gear I acquired for raiding TX (for example: dungeon blues), I only need to play a bit better, and maybe use one more healer in my setup.

Edit: inb4 "This is not true! You can put it higher on a linear scale as well!!!"
Well, yeah, of course you can. Only, then you make heroic gear from TX a prerequisite to raid normal mode TX+1. That's not the intended design goal. People who want to progress from TX nhc to TX+1 nhc should still be able to do that. The only way to do that, is to allow strength to grow exponentially.




Care to explain how exactly stat-values on the final Tier of WoD were datamined, if those tiers data is not accessible anywhere, and likely doesn't even exist as of now?

exponential scale is fine, as long as its not too steep, doubling the stats in a single tier IS pretty damn steep, because thats precisely what MoP did, we started at 50k in quest greens and ended up doubling that with every tier...

also there ARE actually datamined 750 ilev items, which appear to be on curve set by the available WoD items and their stat scaling, so not just randomly itemized OP items for oneshotting stuff.