An independent Scotland - good or bad?

[Gratlim]

North sea oil would be theirs. From an english point of view I can see why england don't want to see them go. And I say this as a Norwegian living on the west coast from Norway 15min away from platforms: if they want to see oil money stop leaking out to London city, they need their indenpendance. I am all for it. London is already the financial center of Europe. England will be fine.

Rest of this debate is pure politics and/or history. EU would welcome Scotland anyway. They love petro dollars and try hard to get us in.

When it comes to defens and currency. I agree with the British out there. They should be on their own. Indenpendance should be 100% and they need their own. Euro I guess if they join.

[Deleted]

it'll be funny when the oil runs out

[Glesganed]

You can think what you want, but your argument makes no sense as I pointed out earlier in respect of Northern Ireland (poor, but we fought to keep them), or London and the Home Counties (far wealthier if they became independent, but have no wish to do so).

The UK will be weaker politically, and Scotland will become an international irrelevance. All of the world's most politically powerful countries have two things in common, wealth and large populations - take away either and you no longer dine at the top table.

.

Lol, dine at the top table. As long as the uk hangs onto american coat tail then maybe, but the world is changing and china could care less about the uk if the last government trade visit is anything to go by.

Scotland doesn't strive for world domination. A small wealthy, fairer more equal country will do fine thanks.

[Deleted]

That has been the case ever since free tuition was implemented in Scotland.

This is a very valid point that needs answering by the SNP. The current policy is not illegal within the EU as the discrimination is within one member state. If Scotland and the UK are separate member's the policy definitely seems illegal, unless an exception is made which I doubt other member states would allow.

I suspect this would throw into question Scotland's ability to keep free university places in the case of independence.

[Kalis]

Lol, dine at the top table. As long as the uk hangs onto american coat tail then maybe, but the world is changing and china could care less about the uk if the last government trade visit is anything to go by.

The UK has one of the largest economies in the world, that you don't know we dine exclusively at the top table shouldn't really fill anybody with confidence that you have the political awareness to be able to give a sensible opinion on international politics.

The entire world, including China, hangs on the coattails of the US, as they are the dominant international economy. Scotland won't be more independent from the world economy outside of the UK! That doesn't make any sense, they will actually be far more dependent.

Scotland doesn't strive for world domination. A small wealthy, fairer more equal country will do fine thanks.

Of those, the only thing you will be in the medium-to-long term is smaller. The UK has a lot of bargaining power in international trade deals due to it's size and prosperity, so it gets good terms when they are negotiated. Scotland will get the terms dictated to it, with virtually no bargaining power whatsoever, as there are plenty of small nations that would be willing to accept reduced terms.

Scotland's greatest trading partner will be the UK, so who do you honestly think is going to get the best terms in any trade deals between the two, when the UK can also offer terms to the likes of Denmark, Portugal or Spain? In order for Scottish business to reach a wide local market, their main markets will have to be the UK, France or Germany, all of which have hundreds of smaller countries cutting their terms in order to obtain access to their business markets. You'd go from having the purchasing power of Waitrose to the purchasing power of your local corner shop, and from a business point of view that is long term economic suicide.

At their basic level, a country is just a huge business - the population are the shareholding staff and the different business sectors are departments within the company - and nobody in their right mind would open a small shop that has no chance of expansion, unless they were going into retirement.

[Deleted]

it'll be funny when the oil runs out

Fucking Hell... we've been told by 'experts' that the oil was running out in the 80s.

Typical Westminister propaganda.

They don't want us to leave. Now that we are ahead in the YES vote, they are fucking scrambling.

Pleasing.

[Deleted]

As a english person. I don't want Scotland to vote yes. That Salmond guy is nothing more than a tin pot dictator. To think people actually fought wars to get rid of people like that. The only true winners will be the tory party who will get voted back in time after time. (the tories wanted a yes vote all along ).
Also voting yes just to stick it to the english is pathetic and will only breed resentment in other parts of the u.k. (especially in the labour voting working mens club's of the north). Can only imagine how nasty a town like Blackpool will become if a yes vote happens. (can't see yorkshiremen or mancs keeping their gobs shut ).
Also, there's a possibility of anything with a Scottish label on it may or may not be boycotted for sometime.

Hopefully common sense will be the eventual winner in the end, instead of sleepwalking themselves into a nazi state ( sorry but Nationalist=nazi. can't sugar coat it )

[Deleted]

The UK has one of the largest economies in the world, that you don't know we dine exclusively at the top table shouldn't really fill anybody with confidence that you have the political awareness to be able to give a sensible opinion on international politics.

The entire world, including China, hangs on the coattails of the US, as they are the dominant international economy. Scotland won't be more independent from the world economy outside of the UK! That doesn't make any sense, they will actually be far more dependent.




Of those, the only thing you will be in the medium-to-long term is smaller. The UK has a lot of bargaining power in international trade deals due to it's size and prosperity, so it gets good terms when they are negotiated. Scotland will get the terms dictated to it, with virtually no bargaining power whatsoever, as there are plenty of small nations that would be willing to accept reduced terms.

Scotland's greatest trading partner will be the UK, so who do you honestly think is going to get the best terms in any trade deals between the two, when the UK can also offer terms to the likes of Denmark, Portugal or Spain? In order for Scottish business to reach a wide local market, their main markets will have to be the UK, France or Germany, all of which have hundreds of smaller countries cutting their terms in order to obtain access to their business markets. You'd go from having the purchasing power of Waitrose to the purchasing power of your local corner shop, and from a business point of view that is long term economic suicide.

At their basic level, a country is just a huge business - the population are the shareholding staff and the different business sectors are departments within the company - and nobody in their right mind would open a small shop that has no chance of expansion, unless they were going into retirement.

Well in that case, wouldn't the Ukraine be better off as part of Russia again? Taiwan part of China? Pakistan part of India? Greece part of Turkey? Malta part of Italy? Canada part of the United States?

In fact why doesn't England just bequeath it's sovereignty to a federal EU after Scotland get independence? after all it will be part of a 'bigger corporation' as you put it and that will make England stronger will it not?

All the money grubbing aside 'If I believe the no campaigners bullshit fear-mongering, I might be £5 a month worse off' or 'we could be like Ireland' nonsense. I'd happily be a little bit financially worse off than be a part of Westminster and its morally corrupt scumbags.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIQ8VVn8AJA as linked earlier, I urge no voters to look at this.

http://www.sundaypost.com/news-views...y-mod-1.151449

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/index...mer-chancellor

Morally, no Scots person can justify voting NO.

It just so happens that financially we'll be just fine on our own - possibly much much better off, when Trident gtfo of Faslane and oil exploration can start in the Firth of Clyde.

[justandulas]

wait... Scotland isn't free? So... why did i sit through Braveheart back in the 90's?


EDIT: I'm just trolling, good for Scotland. England will be just fine, and they will still be part of the UK so an attack on Scotland is still an attack on England.

[Elegiac]

In fact why doesn't England just bequeath it's sovereignty to a federal EU after Scotland get independence? after all it will be part of a 'bigger corporation' as you put it and that will make England stronger will it not?

That's a good question. I'm not sure why people are so resistant to federalization in Europe.

[Deleted]

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind" - Albert Einstein.

Wonder what they'd do if the Shetland Islands and the Orkeneys decide that they want to be independent of Scotland ?

[Deleted]

I'm for more fusions of Countries, not break-ups.

But when the entity you are fused to is as morally bankrupt as Westminster?

Am I wrong for wanting to no part of Westminsters international interference, warmongering and destabilisation of the middle east? or the fact that Scots are treated as second class citizens? Called spongers because we believe that a university education should be free? or that the most vulnerable in society need free medical care?

Not to mention severance from the old boys network, Old Etonians and their like.

Let's not forget the fact that less than 400 individuals, elite and royalty outright own more than 65% of Scotlands land - after independence we will also have the right to a referendum on Scottish land reforms, limiting the amount of land one person or organisation is allowed to own. Land stolen by hundreds of years of crown oppression and subjugation - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Highland_Clearances

[the_axi]

By "utterly moronic", I think you mean that you didn't realise that is exactly what happens, which isn't my fault as I've tried to explain it to you in very simple terms and it's still gone right over your head.

No, I meant what you said was stupid beyond my lowest expectations.

Can only imagine how nasty a town like Blackpool will become if a yes vote happens. (can't see yorkshiremen or mancs keeping their gobs shut ). Also, there's a possibility of anything with a Scottish label on it may or may not be boycotted for sometime.

I seriously doubt Scotland being independent will change peoples opinions on Scotland, most people already think of it as a different country to begin with.

[MerinPally]

I seriously doubt Scotland being independent will change peoples opinions on Scotland, most people already think of it as a different country to begin with.

Is that even a good thing, on the other Scotland thread there was someone asking if the official language was Gaelic. Sounds to me like the other opinion is sheer cluelessness.

[Kalis]

No, I meant what you said was stupid beyond my lowest expectations.

As what I said was an accurate (though simplified) depiction, it doesn't really show that you have much of a grasp on the economic situation in the UK. Once again, not my fault.

[Deleted]

"Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind" - Albert Einstein.

Wonder what they'd do if the Shetland Islands and the Orkeneys decide that they want to be independent of Scotland ?

I wonder what 'they'll' do when when Kernow wants to go it's own way or when Bradford want's to set up its own 'state'.

I wonder what we'll do when Partick wants liberation from the oppressive clutches of Salmandonia - MON THE PARTICK FREEDOM FRONT!

Stupid argument is stupid.

Scottish independence isn't an act of nationalism, it's an act of outright rebellion against the corrupt repugnant slimes that are the Westminster politerati and the ongoing abuse of Scotland. We think we can take care of ourselves quite fine, thank you.

As one man eloquently put: 'If we are better together, then why aren't we better together now?'

[Deleted]

Morally, no Scots person can justify voting NO.

LOL and with one statement you make everything you say irrelevant as you are just attacking the other side because of bigotry.

I think a no vote is the correct one, but I'm not going to say your views are invalid if you vote yes.

You see this is the main difference between the two camps, the no camp is reasonable and tries to win arguments with facts and discussion, the yes vote attacks people...

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That's a good question. I'm not sure why people are so resistant to federalization in Europe.

in principle I'm not against it.

but it needs to be a high level federalisation only, things like defense etc, with other issues left to regional (country level and lower) governments.

And the curent EU institutions need disbanding and starting from scratch.

[Deleted]

LOL and with one statement you make everything you say irrelevant as you are just attacking the other side because of bigotry.

I think a no vote is the correct one, but I'm not going to say your views are invalid if you vote yes.

You see this is the main difference between the two camps, the no camp is reasonable and tries to win arguments with facts and discussion, the yes vote attacks people...

- - - Updated - - -



in principle I'm not against it.

but it needs to be a high level federalisation only, things like defense etc, with other issues left to regional (country level and lower) governments.

And the curent EU institutions need disbanding and starting from scratch.

I see you edited my quote not to include the articles and the video I linked. Are they too factual for you? That isn't attacking, that's stating facts.

You claim on one hand that the no vote is based on reasonable argument and not attacking people yet on the other hand you claim my reasons are bigotry, therefore calling me a bigot by implication. You, attacking me, pointing out the facts that Westminsters actions, lies and deceit to the Scottish people is somehow 'bigotry' on my part. You destroyed your own argument pal.

[Deleted]

I see you edited my quote not to include the articles and the video I linked. Are they too factual for you? That isn't attacking, that's stating facts.

You claim on one hand that the no vote is based on reasonable argument and not attacking people yet on the other hand you claim my reasons are bigotry, therefore calling me a bigot by implication. You, attacking me, pointing out the facts that Westminsters actions, lies and deceit to the Scottish people is somehow 'bigotry'. You destroyed your own argument pal.

I don't see them saying that your arguments are bigotry anywhere, just your statement that "Morally, no Scots person can justify voting NO." is bigotry. It is the sort of comment that has no place in this discussion and just weakens anything else you have to say.

[Deleted]

I don't see them saying that your arguments are bigotry anywhere, just your statement that "Morally, no Scots person can justify voting NO." is bigotry. It is the sort of comment that has no place in this discussion and just weakens anything else you have to say.

So, the murder of innocents in the middle east, based on a lie to obtain access to oil pipelines as stated by Craig Murray, the former UK Ambassador to Uzbekistan at the time of the Iraq invasion, is morally right to you? The fact that the Scot's people have been deliberately hoodwinked about the oil reserves in the North sea and in the firth of Clyde - this is morally correct to you?

I say in my opinion, if you are Scots and aware of these facts and acts and still want to be part of it, then it is my opinion you need to check your moral compass. That is my opinion and it may be a little aggressive, but I won't apologise for that, because I think people should be outraged by invasions of other countries, resulting in the deaths of 100,000s based on lies to make some rich people, richer.

People like William Hague, wanting to arm the very same people in Syria that are now rampaging through Iraq. You have a choice to walk away from these blood thirsty greedy morons and would choose not to? I find that morally wrong and I wont apologise for it. If you think that makes me a bigot, then so be it, but you may want to look up bigot in the dictionary.